From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sun Jan 13 17:01:49 2008 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, January 14 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2637 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] '98 E300? Re: [db] '98 E300? Re: [db] '98 E300? Re: [db] '98 E300? Re: [db] '98 E300? Re: [db] '98 E300? [db] Re: '98 E300? [db] Re: '98 E300? Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:15:39 -0500 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? Short answer: For the love of all that is good in the diesel world, stay away from the 210 platform cars. Long answer: An electrical system that is FAR more complicated than the 124 chassis, and far more prone to failure. The front spring mounts are known to fail (the 3 spot welds that hold them on rust out). The body itself is also far more corrosion prone than previous models. I would have him look for something older or something newer, depending on his finances. J.B. At 03:06 PM 1/12/2008, you wrote: >got a friend interested into stepping into the world >of Diesel Benz (another FSJ/WJ owner. ;) > >thoughts? warnings? issues? > >I'll forward your comments to him. > >thanx, >john > > ----- >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > there's a solution for every problem; > problem is can we afford the solution? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Do you know anything about the later model diesel benz's? I've been >thinking about getting a 98-99 E300. >It would be the wife's car. She'll be going from the WJ w/limited package. >I'm hoping the 180hp is enough for her. Now that she got used to the 4.7L >in the WJ. > > >http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/car/535905160.html > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: >1/11/2008 6:09 PM J.B. Hebert - ---------------------------------------------- Current Vehicles: '76 Ford Bronco '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) '93 GMC Sierra 2500 '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 1/11/2008 6:09 PM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:21:04 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? JB, Thanx! Didn't Mike Frank have some bad experiences with a newer Benz as well? of course his was a gas one, right? So, Joe, you've got input from a friend who has some direct experience. I stopped by and saw his Benz when I was in Boston. http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2005/NewEngland-January/9-john-jb-95-300d.jpg (if you see all the pictures you'll see why JB has a newer Diesel... http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2005/NewEngland-January/PICTURES.html ) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, J.B. Hebert wrote: # Short answer: # # For the love of all that is good in the diesel world, stay away from the 210 # platform cars. # # Long answer: # # An electrical system that is FAR more complicated than the 124 chassis, and # far more prone to failure. The front spring mounts are known to fail (the 3 # spot welds that hold them on rust out). The body itself is also far more # corrosion prone than previous models. # # I would have him look for something older or something newer, depending on # his finances. # # J.B. # # At 03:06 PM 1/12/2008, you wrote: # # >got a friend interested into stepping into the world # >of Diesel Benz (another FSJ/WJ owner. ;) # > # >thoughts? warnings? issues? # > # >I'll forward your comments to him. # > # >thanx, # >john # > # > ----- # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > there's a solution for every problem; # > problem is can we afford the solution? # >---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > # >Do you know anything about the later model diesel benz's? I've been # >thinking about getting a 98-99 E300. # >It would be the wife's car. She'll be going from the WJ w/limited package. # >I'm hoping the 180hp is enough for her. Now that she got used to the 4.7L # >in the WJ. # > # > # >http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/car/535905160.html # > # > # > # >-- # >No virus found in this incoming message. # >Checked by AVG Free Edition. # >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 1/11/2008 # >6:09 PM # # J.B. Hebert # # ---------------------------------------------- # Current Vehicles: # # '76 Ford Bronco # '78 Volvo 262C Bertone V8 # '80 Alpina B7 Turbo Coupe # '82 Mercedes 300CD (Deceased) # '93 GMC Sierra 2500 # '95 Mercedes E300D Sportline+ # # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:03:28 -0500 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? I have a '99 E320 wagon. It's gas powered. But the engine has never been the problem. The major problems I've had would apply to Diesel as well: 1) Electrical system is a nightmare. Seat position computer has been replaced, both electric mirrors, transmission controller, alternator, air mass sensor. Radio has never worked well, especially on AM. When I turn on the front wiper, the back wiper comes on as well. If it's electronic, it's been broken at least once. 2) Exhaust system. The entire stainless exhaust rusted through, two oxygen sensors went. The manifold to downpipe studs rusted out, requiring the engine to be lifted to repair the manifold. Catalytic converters are chronic failure points, but this won't affect the Diesel. 3) Brakes and tires wear out twice as fast as you would expect. Wheels are prone to cracks. Mercedes changed the torque spec on the wheel studs a couple of years ago. After they reinstalled the wheels, it was impossible to remove them. Snapped eight studs, required two days of drilling to get them out. Tie rod mechanically failed on one side. 4) Body rot. Mercedes has a service bulletin about rust under the door rubbers. Too late for me. The tailgate on the wagon is also rust prone, and there are alarming rust spots on the floor panels. The battery on the wagon is inside the car, and the sheet metal below it is turning into swiss cheese due to poor venting. 5) Windshield spontaneously cracked, headlight covers go cloudy after some time in the sun. Very hard to change light bulbs. 6) A/C leaks, repeatedly fixed. 7) Many owners report problems with the window regulators, I've been spared this trouble. But my sunroof doesn't work correctly, and I ain't paying Mercedes to fix it. 8) Starter failed at 30K miles. There is a common problem with an electronic module on these cars that can prevent the car from starting. After one of these episodes, I had it towed to the local foreign car shop. After working on it for a day, they told me to get the POS out of their shop. I had to have it towed 20 miles to the Mercedes dealer, and they took a week to fix the problem. It's a short list, but the car only has 75K miles. (It's on it's fourth set of tires and third set of brakes.) Mike Frank At 10:21 PM 1/12/2008, john wrote: >JB, > >Thanx! Didn't Mike Frank have some bad experiences with a newer Benz as >well? of course his was a gas one, right? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:26:15 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? wow. ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Mike Frank wrote: I have a '99 E320 wagon. It's gas powered. But the engine has never been the problem. The major problems I've had would apply to Diesel as well: 1) Electrical system is a nightmare. Seat position computer has been replaced, both electric mirrors, transmission controller, alternator, air mass sensor. Radio has never worked well, especially on AM. When I turn on the front wiper, the back wiper comes on as well. If it's electronic, it's been broken at least once. 2) Exhaust system. The entire stainless exhaust rusted through, two oxygen sensors went. The manifold to downpipe studs rusted out, requiring the engine to be lifted to repair the manifold. Catalytic converters are chronic failure points, but this won't affect the Diesel. 3) Brakes and tires wear out twice as fast as you would expect. Wheels are prone to cracks. Mercedes changed the torque spec on the wheel studs a couple of years ago. After they reinstalled the wheels, it was impossible to remove them. Snapped eight studs, required two days of drilling to get them out. Tie rod mechanically failed on one side. 4) Body rot. Mercedes has a service bulletin about rust under the door rubbers. Too late for me. The tailgate on the wagon is also rust prone, and there are alarming rust spots on the floor panels. The battery on the wagon is inside the car, and the sheet metal below it is turning into swiss cheese due to poor venting. 5) Windshield spontaneously cracked, headlight covers go cloudy after some time in the sun. Very hard to change light bulbs. 6) A/C leaks, repeatedly fixed. 7) Many owners report problems with the window regulators, I've been spared this trouble. But my sunroof doesn't work correctly, and I ain't paying Mercedes to fix it. 8) Starter failed at 30K miles. There is a common problem with an electronic module on these cars that can prevent the car from starting. After one of these episodes, I had it towed to the local foreign car shop. After working on it for a day, they told me to get the POS out of their shop. I had to have it towed 20 miles to the Mercedes dealer, and they took a week to fix the problem. It's a short list, but the car only has 75K miles. (It's on it's fourth set of tires and third set of brakes.) Mike Frank At 10:21 PM 1/12/2008, john wrote: >JB, > >Thanx! Didn't Mike Frank have some bad experiences with a newer Benz as >well? of course his was a gas one, right? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:45:12 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? compare this list to my '99 Grand Cherokee... it has over 148,000 miles on it... don't know much about it's earlier history, but we've had it for over two years and 20,000 miles and so far I've changed the oil (to Amsoil), put new tires on it, changed the plugs (they were almost completely gone), replaced the driver's side door stop, replaced some axle seals, and put a lot of gas in it... have driven this one to South Dakota twice at freeway speeds, through Glacier and Yellowstone... no electrical problems that I can think of... the stereo must have been swapped out and replaced with the stock unit at some point though because there are splices that aren't right... I would hop in this thing and drive out to New York right now, connect a trailer and tow a car back without worry... I guess I'm seeing from your experience that Mercedes quality has taken a very serious nosedive... bruce has a '93 and has had more trouble with his 300D than I have... I've had a few minor issues with mine, but nothing serious for 249,000 miles... I'm kind of bummed... my windshield started cracking after getting hit with something in town, my replaced a/c pump must have a bad low pressure switch, and my brake pads are worn out... but considering the cross-drilled power slotted rotors, that part is understandable and accepted... really dread having someone replace the windshield on this thing, it's the original glass... :( john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:19:58 -0500 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? My 190D has 240K miles. It's had it's share of difficult problems, including a new starter and a new used differential, but the cost of running the 20 year old car has been a fraction of the cost of running the '99. The seat control computer on the '99 cost more than replacing the differential on the '87. The cost of the replacing the two mirrors on the '99 was more than the cost of 4 years of repairs to the '87. If the '99 hadn't been under extended warranty for seven years, it would have been gone a long time ago. As for the window glass, I brought the '99 to Triumph Glass (chain of glass shops), and they dropped in the new one, no problem at all. Mike Frank At 12:45 AM 1/13/2008, john wrote: > really dread having someone replace the windshield >on this thing, it's the original glass... :( ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:22:06 -0800 From: "Roy Sharp" Subject: [db] Re: '98 E300? Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? John, I think the comments below are right on target. The E300D was to be my fifth and probably final MBZ diesel and when I finally got serious about buying one and read about the problems that owners were having via the diesel list, it put me off completely!.. especially one member who had his back to the dealer during the first year more than six months!! Seems like I have seen reliability lists in Consumers Report that listed Mercedes around 19th from the top! I still think the E300D engine is one of the best but the electronics are some of the very worst, especially when crammed with early efforts that are planned to make the owner/driver completely redundant. Every added feature increases opportunity for failure as well as initial cost. My 75 year old brain tells me that absolutely everything is being overstuffed with sales department "improvements" that are filling every item full of "features" that the majority can't afford, can't understand and that can't be repaired. My lifelong interest in vehicles has been blunted; I bought an E300 Lexus for reliable transportation. It is very reliable; two oxygen sensors in 8 years and that is IT except for oil and filters. It is also colorless, odorless and tasteless and has interlocking electronics that will fight you to a standstill to prevent ANYthing from being done in any WAY different from original ideas. It also drags on every parking block, every curb and far too many speed bumps, even at 2 mph. Of course, the mileage figures are blatant lies, fostered by EPA, politicians and auto industry. Reality is 13.7-17mpg (ONCE in a while.) My 1980 300SD goes to Vegas (300 mi.) in 3 1/2 hours at at least 22mpg! ...about the lowest you can get out of it in any conditions...! I'm somewhat irritated.... Roy Sharp > I guess I'm seeing from your experience that Mercedes quality has > taken a very serious nosedive... bruce has a '93 and has had > more trouble with his 300D than I have... I've had a few minor > issues with mine, but nothing serious for 249,000 miles... I'm > kind of bummed... my windshield started cracking after getting > hit with something in town, my replaced a/c pump must have a bad > low pressure switch, and my brake pads are worn out... but considering > the cross-drilled power slotted rotors, that part is understandable > and accepted... really dread having someone replace the windshield > on this thing, it's the original glass... :( > > john A couple of years ago, on a fine May morning, I brought the suitcases out to put in the Lexus trunk; my wife and I were leaving immediately on a 4000 mi. vacation, first in years. Found the back window had turned to "sleet", all over back (leather) seats and speaker shelf! An avocado fell off the tree and hit the body an inch away from the left side of the window! Vacuumed all the "rice" out and about an hour later the guy I called was there and did an expert change-in of a new one (with defrost, antenna, etc.) in about 40 minutes and for $430. He also pointed out the very slight avocado dent that I hadn't even noticed as well as another similar, higher on the roof! Not all Luxus' fault; our avocados average over 2 lbs. My wife got nailed with a 2.5 pounder! Careful where you park... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] Re: '98 E300? I'm not so sure I'm all that impressed even by my 124 benz, the climate control, while working as designed, drives me batty... absolutely loathe it... the seats are miserable if you have back troubles... lots of odd little design features... but overall the engine and trans are fantastic... so far no electronic failures, and don't expect any... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Roy Sharp wrote: # # Subject: Re: [db] '98 E300? # # John, I think the comments below are right on target. The E300D was # to be my fifth and probably final MBZ diesel and when I finally got # serious about buying one and read about the problems that owners were # having via the diesel list, it put me off completely!.. especially one member # who had his back to the dealer during the first year more than six months!! # Seems like I have seen reliability lists in Consumers Report that listed # Mercedes # around 19th from the top! I still think the E300D engine is one of the best # but # the electronics are some of the very worst, especially when crammed with # early # efforts that are planned to make the owner/driver completely redundant. Every # added feature increases opportunity for failure as well as initial cost. # My 75 year old brain tells me that absolutely everything is being # overstuffed # with sales department "improvements" that are filling every item full of # "features" # that the majority can't afford, can't understand and that can't be repaired. # My lifelong interest in vehicles has been blunted; I bought an E300 Lexus # for # reliable transportation. It is very reliable; two oxygen sensors in 8 years # and that # is IT except for oil and filters. It is also colorless, odorless and # tasteless and has # interlocking electronics that will fight you to a standstill to prevent # ANYthing from # being done in any WAY different from original ideas. It also drags on every # parking # block, every curb and far too many speed bumps, even at 2 mph. # Of course, the mileage figures are blatant lies, fostered by EPA, # politicians and auto # industry. Reality is 13.7-17mpg (ONCE in a while.) My 1980 300SD goes to # Vegas # (300 mi.) in 3 1/2 hours at at least 22mpg! ...about the lowest you can get # out of it in # any conditions...! I'm somewhat # irritated.... # Roy # Sharp # # # # # > I guess I'm seeing from your experience that Mercedes quality has # > taken a very serious nosedive... bruce has a '93 and has had # > more trouble with his 300D than I have... I've had a few minor # > issues with mine, but nothing serious for 249,000 miles... I'm # > kind of bummed... my windshield started cracking after getting # > hit with something in town, my replaced a/c pump must have a bad # > low pressure switch, and my brake pads are worn out... but considering # > the cross-drilled power slotted rotors, that part is understandable # > and accepted... really dread having someone replace the windshield # > on this thing, it's the original glass... :( # > # > john # # A couple of years ago, on a fine May morning, I brought the suitcases out # to put in the Lexus trunk; my wife and I were leaving immediately on a 4000 # mi. vacation, first in years. Found the back window had turned to "sleet", # all # over back (leather) seats and speaker shelf! An avocado fell off the tree and # hit # the body an inch away from the left side of the window! Vacuumed all the # "rice" # out and about an hour later the guy I called was there and did an expert # change-in # of a new one (with defrost, antenna, etc.) in about 40 minutes and for $430. # He also pointed out the very slight avocado dent that I hadn't even noticed # as # well as another similar, higher on the roof! Not all Luxus' fault; our # avocados # average over 2 lbs. My wife got nailed with a 2.5 pounder! Careful where you # park... # ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2637 **********************************