From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Dec 8 17:37:21 2000 From: xj-digest xj-digest Friday, December 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1011 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Re: xj: XJ's on 38's xj: Re: PLeeeease help me - it just WILL NOT stop pinging xj: Long Control Arm pics: Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: Re: PLeeeease help me - it just WILL NOT stop pinging Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Re: xj: Long Control Arm pics: Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: New Member, New Owner xj: BALL joint help PLEASE?? Re: xj: Long Control Arm pics: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Re: xj: brake booster xj: RE: Super35 vs Dana 44 XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:00:57 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: brake booster Doug Wright wrote: > I want to upgrade my brakes and am considering just swapping the brake > booster to the newer style (dual-diaphram). My 88 has the old > single-diaphram type. Is this a straight swap or do I need other parts? Unless you have removed the airbox, the longer booster wont fit unless you also use the newer shorter Master cylinder > > What model years have the newer style? 95+ > I located a used one from a 97+ XJ > for $125. Is this a fair price? New from the dealer around here is $199 Canadian, about $125 US, so I'd say no > > > Thanks, > > Doug > > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:02:32 -0500 From: Doug Wright Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner >I'm not really sure what diameter tire to go with. I also haven't found any >4.5" lifts yet... the ones I'm seeing are all 3". Check out Rusty's Off Road. They have a nice 4.5" kit which is what I am running. http://www.rustysoffroad.com/cherokee.htm Doug doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:05:40 -0500 From: Doug Wright Subject: Re: xj: brake booster >> I want to upgrade my brakes and am considering just swapping the brake >> booster to the newer style (dual-diaphram). My 88 has the old >> single-diaphram type. Is this a straight swap or do I need other parts? > >Unless you have removed the airbox, the longer booster wont fit unless you >also use the newer shorter Master cylinder Yes, I am running a Rusty's Air Tube. Any modifications necessary or other parts needed? I know I'll probably have to bend a few of the brake hard lines and maybe move the washer bottle up some. bo >> What model years have the newer style? > >95+ > >> I located a used one from a 97+ XJ >> for $125. Is this a fair price? > >New from the dealer around here is $199 Canadian, about $125 US, so I'd say no Ok. I'll keep shopping around. Thanks, Doug doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:15:37 -0500 From: Doug Wright Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner >> Then there are the axles. What do you guys recommend? I was thinking a >> Dana 60 out back and 44 up front, or is that overkill? I'm thinking about a >> 4.5" lift and 30-32" tires. >_____________________________________________________ >Although those are great axle choices, they are not necessary with >30-32" tires. If you were to run 35's, them maybe. A good upgrade is a >D44 rear from a Cherokee or Comanche. Another upgrade is a Ford 8.8 >from an Explorer. These both use the 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. The High >Pinion D30 front end is actually pretty strong, but it doesn't have >lockout hubs. Warn makes two kits (standard and HD requiring a change >to 5 on 5.5 rims) to put hubs on the D30. Some folks put a cable >operated disconnect on the disconnectable D30 axles in place of the >vacuum shift mechanism. The 8.8" is a nice swap. I'm running one and it seems to be holding up fine to my I-6 stroker motor. Also, the 8.8" has larger axle shafts than a stock D44, most come with discs, and it should be alot easier to find than a XJ/MJ D44. Even if you start out with 31s and 4.5", chances are you will soon want to go bigger. I'm running that combo, and the 31s just look way too small to me :) I totally ripped out the vacuum disconnect system, and rigged it so that it's connected all the time. No problems or vibrations, but it's much more reliable now (I know when 4wd is engaged and it goes in when I pull the lever). Doug doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:20:38 -0500 From: Doug Wright Subject: Re: xj: XJ's on 38's That red one is pretty sweet! Just like mine, it has an ARB, PIAA 520 lights, and blue screwpin shackles on the bumper :) The only problem is now the 33" SSRs I was set on getting may just not be big enough :) They must be getting some serious tire rubbing though, to run 38s, stock fender flares, and what looks like only 6-8" of lift. Doug >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1386680&a=10347089 >I especially like #27. >More pics here: >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1386680&a=10346552 > >The red one has a rear D44 and front Warn kit >The green one has a Dynatrac rear 60 and a front Warn kit. >They both are using RE lifts with the drop brackets. >The tires are 38x12.5's >Jeff > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:49:27 -0700 From: "Aaron Storms" Subject: xj: Re: PLeeeease help me - it just WILL NOT stop pinging You're way past my skill level! Has your helicopter buddy taken a look at it too? Aaron Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: samfans To: strokers ; Ed Stevens ; Robert Bryce ; Robert Salemi ; XJ Digest Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: xj: PLeeeease help me - it just WILL NOT stop pinging > Arrrrgh. I am the end of my rope. > > It's been weeks - I've tried all the common wisdom and have had no luck: > > The engine: > > Basically a 4.5L stroked NHO with Renix intake and TB, Renix computer, > renix head, HO injectors, HO cam, 98 pistons, Supposed to be quench > compliant (block decked 20 thou), NHO stock plugs, stock ignition, HO > exhaust manifold, K&N cone filter, Adjustable MAP turned up to 6-7 > volts, 350 Ohm pot on the CTS, running 92 premium fuel. > > New CPS, TPS. Knock sensor checks out on scanner > > The symptom: > > Driving along, 60 km'h in OD, approx 1500 rpm, tip in the throttle about > 1/4 to 1/2 (vaccum drops to about 6) and a guy under the hood with a > metal tim of ball bearings goes nuts (ie it pings badly) > > It runs at 210* F, regardless of temp outside or city/highway > > The only other problem is the idle - it "hunts" a bit - vaccum varying > from 18-20 in a more or less steady rhythm. > > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:11:02 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: xj: Long Control Arm pics: Check out what Brent Borton has recently done! Long lower control arms. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1247989&a=10367038 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:14:39 -0500 From: Doug Wright Subject: Re: xj: brake booster >> I located a used one from a 97+ XJ >> for $125. Is this a fair price? > >New from the dealer around here is $199 Canadian, about $125 US, so I'd say no I just called the local dealer, and they want $225 US! Hard to believe it's cheaper up there. I'm definitely going with a used one now. Doug. doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:23:57 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: brake booster Doug Wright wrote: > Yes, I am running a Rusty's Air Tube. Any modifications necessary or > other parts needed? I know I'll probably have to bend a few of the brake > hard lines and maybe move the washer bottle up some. Not sure on the exact details, but that sounds likely Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:24:55 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Re: PLeeeease help me - it just WILL NOT stop pinging I wish. he got posted to the other coast - only about 7000 km away !! bill Aaron Storms wrote: > You're way past my skill level! Has your helicopter buddy taken a look at it > too? Aaron > > Aaron Storms > Black Hawk, CO > aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: samfans > To: strokers ; Ed Stevens ; Robert > Bryce ; Robert Salemi ; XJ > Digest > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 1:36 PM > Subject: xj: PLeeeease help me - it just WILL NOT stop pinging > > > Arrrrgh. I am the end of my rope. > > > > It's been weeks - I've tried all the common wisdom and have had no luck: > > > > The engine: > > > > Basically a 4.5L stroked NHO with Renix intake and TB, Renix computer, > > renix head, HO injectors, HO cam, 98 pistons, Supposed to be quench > > compliant (block decked 20 thou), NHO stock plugs, stock ignition, HO > > exhaust manifold, K&N cone filter, Adjustable MAP turned up to 6-7 > > volts, 350 Ohm pot on the CTS, running 92 premium fuel. > > > > New CPS, TPS. Knock sensor checks out on scanner > > > > The symptom: > > > > Driving along, 60 km'h in OD, approx 1500 rpm, tip in the throttle about > > 1/4 to 1/2 (vaccum drops to about 6) and a guy under the hood with a > > metal tim of ball bearings goes nuts (ie it pings badly) > > > > It runs at 210* F, regardless of temp outside or city/highway > > > > The only other problem is the idle - it "hunts" a bit - vaccum varying > > from 18-20 in a more or less steady rhythm. > > > > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:47:47 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner From: "Doug Wright" > >I'm not really sure what diameter tire to go with. I also haven't found any > >4.5" lifts yet... the ones I'm seeing are all 3". > > Check out Rusty's Off Road. They have a nice 4.5" kit which is what > I am running. Here are two questions... first, what seems to be the best tire size to run with a 4.5" lift? Second, can you get any of these lift kits without shocks? I really would prefer to run Rancho RS9000's rather than anything else... The 3" lift looks nice, but for best results as an offroad vehicle, it seems like the 4.5" is the way to go. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:07:05 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: brake booster Doug, i should have mentioned. i buy so many Jeep parts that I struck a deal with the local parts dept so they always give me "trade" or "jobber" or "wholesale price". Try talking to the manager, or try calling and pretending to be a shop - the discount is alarming. Bill Doug Wright wrote: > >> I located a used one from a 97+ XJ > >> for $125. Is this a fair price? > > > >New from the dealer around here is $199 Canadian, about $125 US, so I'd say no > > I just called the local dealer, and they want $225 US! Hard to believe it's > cheaper up there. I'm definitely going with a used one now. > > Doug. > > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:07:00 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner From: "Jeff" > I think the Diesel is not a good idea. Why do you say that? It has tons of torque and the potential to get 25+ mpg while still being as fast as the 4.0 I-6. > Would that be Whit? He is the only one I know of. He lives in > California someplace I believe. Whit!!! That's him! Any chance you have his email address? > What case does it have? I think it might be a NP207. I believe the > case is fine although it probably could use a rebuild. I have heard of > one guy putting in a NV241. It is bigger overall and will take some > effort to make it fit. It's a base Cherokee Chief with the 4-cyl. No towing package. So it likely has the wimpiest of the xfer cases. > Although those are great axle choices, they are not necessary with > 30-32" tires. If you were to run 35's, them maybe. A good upgrade is a > D44 rear from a Cherokee or Comanche. Another upgrade is a Ford 8.8 > from an Explorer. These both use the 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. Good recommendations! Here's a question: Given that my Cherokee has over 200k miles on it, isn't it a safe assumption that both axles would need to be rebuilt? That being the case, it may be more cost-effective to go ahead and spend money on new axles rather than fool with the old ones. > I think you should pretty much drive it for awhile and then upgrade what > you find lacking. Jeff I agree. I'm in no rush to start spending money. For the next 2-3 months will be all research to figure out exactly what I need. In the meantime, I'm just going to tinker with what I have and see if I can make the 4-cyl in it run well. My neighbor is going to be driving it over the winter anyway, as her Accord needs a clutch. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:16:10 -0800 From: Dale Rittenbach Subject: Re: xj: Long Control Arm pics: That is soooo cool, it's almost what I was thinking about, now comes the hard part, the upper arms...... Seeing the difference in the control arm angle really makes me want to do that to help mine with 6 inches of lift :) Thanks for sharing the pictures. - -- Dale Rittenbach www.uidaho.edu/~ritt3642 "Are you the police?" "No ma'am, we're musicians" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:27:35 -0600 From: "Dora, Let's Go Jeepin, Inc." Subject: Re: xj: brake booster all good to get your parts for less and all. but i suggest talking to the manager instead of pretending to be a shop. you will lose all credibility once theu ask for some documentation or a license or a tax number.....and it makes it that much harder for "real" businesses to establish accounts at places when people do this. just my 2 cents as a business owner... Dora-ble 97 XJ and TJ Chicago http://www.letsgojeepin.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "samfans" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:07 PM Subject: Re: xj: brake booster > Doug, > > i should have mentioned. i buy so many Jeep parts that I struck a deal with the > local parts dept so they always give me "trade" or "jobber" or "wholesale price". > Try talking to the manager, or try calling and pretending to be a shop - the > discount is alarming. > > Bill > > Doug Wright wrote: > > > >> I located a used one from a 97+ XJ > > >> for $125. Is this a fair price? > > > > > >New from the dealer around here is $199 Canadian, about $125 US, so I'd say no > > > > I just called the local dealer, and they want $225 US! Hard to believe it's > > cheaper up there. I'm definitely going with a used one now. > > > > Doug. > > > > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:36:24 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Haven't really paid attention to the string...but with a 4.5" lift ya also have to look at a slip yoke eliminator (SYE) kit for the transfer case. Phil - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Robert Glover" Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:47:47 -0800 From: "Doug Wright" > >I'm not really sure what diameter tire to go with. I also haven't found any > >4.5" lifts yet... the ones I'm seeing are all 3". > > Check out Rusty's Off Road. They have a nice 4.5" kit which is what > I am running. Here are two questions... first, what seems to be the best tire size to run with a 4.5" lift? Second, can you get any of these lift kits without shocks? I really would prefer to run Rancho RS9000's rather than anything else... The 3" lift looks nice, but for best results as an offroad vehicle, it seems like the 4.5" is the way to go. Rob _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:42:47 -0500 From: Bob Mock Subject: xj: BALL joint help PLEASE?? OK...so I've moved into the wonderful (cough) state of PA. While I like the state I'm not to hot on their yearly vehicle inspection. I had it inspected last night and the shop (knowledgable mechanic) told me (and showed me) that I need new ball joints upper and lower on each side. While I haven't noticed ANY steering problems related to them, and they barely moved, I still have to replace them before I can pass inspection. That means I've got to get them done ASAP. Now my question. Is this something that's even worth tackling in 30* +/- weather without much for a garage? I could make the time to work on them but don't know if I have the great desire to do it but it's very $$$ to have the shop do it. He said it'd be about 3hrs a side -at- $45/hr labor plus parts (which are pretty expensive by the way now that I've priced them) Do I need to remove the hub? Or can I unbolt the ball joints and pull the knuckle and shaft out enough to press the ball joints in and out. That would be MUCH better as far as time goes I would imagine. Also....are there any tricks to getting those joints out? I've got access to one of those giant c-clamp ball joint tools and also air tools but those ball joints are most likely the original ones. Are they going to be impossible to get out? I've got the FSM and it wasn't too helpful. Haven't looked at haynes or chilton yet. Any tips would be GREAT!! Bob ___________________ cherokee-4wheelin-at-vt.edu http://www.vt.edu:10021/H/hmock/ ____________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:45:00 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Long Control Arm pics: One thing that really concerns me with this design, is the now huge difference in the lengths of the upper and lower control arms. Do they not need to be proportional or something? i wonder what the effect would be? Bill Jeff wrote: > Check out what Brent Borton has recently done! Long lower control arms. > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1247989&a=10367038 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 100 13:56:23 -1000 (HST) From: Alan Chung Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Heya Sometimes you can get aay without a SYE on 4.5 inches of lift...I lived at 6 inches for almost two years without an SYE. I had just a bit of vibration, but it wasnt that bad at all. Although it helped that I had a D44 in there too for the longer snout...the slip yoke was pretty much as far in the end piece as it was when stock. But if you have a 97 and above, from what Ive heard, an SYE is definetaly needed. Mahalo Alan Chung 90 Cherokee Limited 4.6 Honolulu, HI Bellingham, Wa P.S. I now have the Currie 242 SYE wwhihc was $240 and a Tom Woods Driveshaft which was $260. So $600 for a SYe and driveshaft wasnt bad. You could also make your own SYE for cheap! Right now, no vibe whatsoever, so it is nice to have an SYE in there, with a nice balanced driveshaft. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:58:23 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: brake booster Actually, I have to strongly disagree with your point of view. Since your argument boils down to one of ethics, I ask - is it any less ethical to totally gouge the private consumer? Why should Joe blow have to pay twice the price - just so the "discount" can be offered to a buiness who can themselves increase the price in order to make a profit - while adding no value to the transaction ?? I think NOT !! I'm not targetting anyone in particular but if a "business" consists solely of buying and selling marked up goods in order to generate a profit - a pretty value less cut throat capitalist approach, one can hardly then blame the consumer for seeking a better deal. Besides, it just means a business owner needs to negotiate a better deal - it's not like the "jobber" rate is the same as cost - that's usually 50% less again or more. Ask the dealer to see the total price sheet on some common items - there are about 4 to 6 for most items - from production cost to"retail" price. And finally - it doesn't take much to ethically be a business in their eyes, they don't care much - especially if you're a good customer. I spent $35 to register the name, and occasionally work on others vehicles for them - bingo, a business (NOT for tax purposes yadda yadda - 'nother issue altogether). Anyway - - they sell me the parts I'm happy, their happy - that's capitalism in a free market economy ! My $2 as a ticked off consumer whose been gouged long enough !! *end rant :-) Bill "Dora, Let's Go Jeepin, Inc." wrote: > all good to get your parts for less and all. but i suggest talking to the > manager instead of pretending to be a shop. you will lose all credibility > once theu ask for some documentation or a license or a tax number.....and it > makes it that much harder for "real" businesses to establish accounts at > places when people do this. just my 2 cents as a business owner... > > Dora-ble > 97 XJ and TJ > Chicago > http://www.letsgojeepin.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "samfans" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:07 PM > Subject: Re: xj: brake booster > > > Doug, > > > > i should have mentioned. i buy so many Jeep parts that I struck a deal > with the > > local parts dept so they always give me "trade" or "jobber" or "wholesale > price". > > Try talking to the manager, or try calling and pretending to be a shop - > the > > discount is alarming. > > > > Bill > > > > Doug Wright wrote: > > > > > >> I located a used one from a 97+ XJ > > > >> for $125. Is this a fair price? > > > > > > > >New from the dealer around here is $199 Canadian, about $125 US, so I'd > say no > > > > > > I just called the local dealer, and they want $225 US! Hard to believe > it's > > > cheaper up there. I'm definitely going with a used one now. > > > > > > Doug. > > > > > > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:34:36 -0500 From: "Darren K. Page" Subject: xj: RE: Super35 vs Dana 44 Paul, Thanks for the info. My bonus comes in feb. or so, so I will have to see...I also get to claim my daughter on my taxes for the first time this year, so hopefully I will get a good return as well =) I'm also on the verge of closing the deal on the house that I'm buying, I get $$ from that, too. Time to put the 44 to work. My 44 currently has no axles, so I will definitely look into the HD ones. Thanks again. Darren - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Paul W. Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 9:59 PM To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: xj: Super35 vs Dana 44 "Darren K. Page" wrote: > My friend just snapped an axle shaft on his '99 TJ with the Dana35C, Detroit, > 4.56's and 33's. He is now going for a Super35 kit. The guy that is selling > it to him told him that it would be stronger than a 44, which is why I was > poking around the Randy's Ring & Pinion site. I wanted to try and compare > axle shaft thickness between a Dana35C, the Super35 shaft, and a Dana44. > Does anyone know which axle shafts are really thicker (or stronger) the > Super35 or the 44's? The Super35 shaft will be stronger than a stock D44 shaft... Both are 1.31" diameter with 30 splines (the Super35 is essentially a HD Alloy D44 shaft). You can get aftermarket D44 shafts that are just as strong from Moser, Currie - even from Superior (the maker of the Super35). But this still doesn't answer the Dana 35's other shortcomings... like whimpy axle tubes that are known to bend and twist, crush sleeve pinion adjustment, smaller gears and bearings, strap type pinion yoke (OK, some D44's have these too, but at least you can easily replace the D44 yokes with U-bolt yokes easily), fewer gear ratios to select from, etc... So IMHO, a stock D44 is still better than a Super35... and you can always make a "Super44". :) Paul Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1011 *************************