From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Dec 9 11:32:53 2000 From: xj-digest xj-digest Saturday, December 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1013 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: more humor: winter wheelin' xj: PhotoPoint (Album Owner Mode) - Free, easy photo sharing and photo gallery Re: xj: New Member, New Owner xj: Looking for a spare rim or 2 (or 4 aluminum ones) Re: xj: Re: F-Body Friends Re: xj: Looking for a spare rim or 2 (or 4 aluminum ones) xj: Lift Kits & Shocks Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: brake booster Re: xj: F-Body Friends xj: United - BLM OHV strategy - responses needed! xj: diesels - pro&con xj: Re: pinging xj: Re: diesels - pro&con XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 00:22:33 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: more humor: winter wheelin' (this came from the same friend, didn't modify this one... ;) Subject: FW: Winter Wheelin" Beads pop off, are you listenin' Cold wind through - your ears is whistlin' Your winch falls apart, your engine won't start Wheelin' through a winter wonderland Snow is deep, your butt is freezin' Broke a birfield, it ain't pleasin' You're starting to slide, on your wheels, then your side Wheelin' through a winter wonderland On the hillclimb we can barely make it Traction's really nowhere to be found Pull the cable, snatch the block and fake it. Or claw along and put the hammer down! Later on, we'll perspire Drying gloves by the fire Counting things that we broke, "That's Wheeling" we'll joke, Wheeling through a winter wonderland... *** Author unknown **** - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:14:33 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: xj: PhotoPoint (Album Owner Mode) - Free, easy photo sharing and photo gallery ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=13998&a=10377325 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:16:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner Robert Glover wrote: > From: "Paul W." > > I don't know what Jeff's reasons are, but mine are: weight, expense, > > smell, noise, fuel availability (assuming US resident - OK, diesel isn't > > HARD to find, but it's not at every gas station either)... > > I'm a dieselhead in addition an f-body guy, though. I have a RAM 3500 with > the Cummins, so I'm very partial to those motors. FWIW, there is VERY > little smell from a Cummins. The Ram's Cummins is a sweet motor and can be tweaked easily (I work with a guy who has a 99 Ram 2500 that puts out >800 ft/lbs of torque!) - but they are still heavy... even with 2 cylinders whacked off. And I'm sure Diesel/FSJ John one of our List Mom's will disagree, but IMHO, diesel fuel stinks... and you still have to smell it when you refuel, even if you have a clean burning oil burner. > Now, the V8 is really more for bragging rights than anything. Just to be > able to say it has an LS1, and for the extra oomph. But you're very right, > it sure won't handle like an f-body, especially after being lifted. I hear ya! I'm building a CJ-5 (very slowly) and it will be sporting a 350, but not anything as hi-po as a LT1 or LS1... just a warmed over LS-9 (which is an early 70's truck motor). I figure it's putting out ~300-325 crankshaft horsepower - up from a stock 270. > Another idea I'm considering, which would be the cheapest probably, is to > just find a late-model 2.5 motor with MPI, and do a head port and cam swap > on it before putting it in. Probably get 150-175 hp out of it if done > properly. That isn't a bad idea... I even know someone who swapped in a late YJ MPI 2.5L into a 85 2.5L XJ. (He said he probably wouldn't do it again though - wiring headache - said might as well wire in a TPI 350 ;) > > It's not so much a tow pkg that determines t-case, but year. Their are > > some slight differences in t-cases based on engine or tranny options, but > > they don't have a huge effect on strength. The NP207 in 84-86 models isn't > > as stout as the 231, but it isn't a lot weaker either. Biggest differences > > are lube systems and gear ratio. > > It's the 207 then, since it's an '84. Would a rebuild of it be something to > consider, or would I then be better off locating a 231? I'm guessing the > latter. If you can score a good deal on a 231, I'd do that... even better if you can score a Dodge version - they have a wider chain... but if yours is a 21 spline, you're stuck with a 21 spline Jeep version - or a spendy Atlas t-case. Paul Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:32:09 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: xj: Looking for a spare rim or 2 (or 4 aluminum ones) A: Cheapies to throw my snow tires on just in case (it was snowing where I was in BC on tuesday and wednesday!) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:32:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Re: F-Body Friends I've been on the V6 F-body's message boards before, but it didn't seem like anyone had a motor for sale - except some guy in a SoCal machine shop who wanted to sell me a mega-buck 3.4 that cranked out some unbelieveable numbers... at an equally unbelievable price. If I wanted to spend that much, I'd just put in a V8! It's not like I'm running in some race class that restricts engine size or configuration. :D Paul Robert Glover wrote: > From: "Paul W." >> HEY! Do you have any F-body friends in the NW? >> Ones with a line on a 3.4L F-body V6? >> I've been looking for one for somewhat less than the local yards are asking. > > All the ones I know are V8 owners.... BUT, try www.v6fbody.com (I think > that's the URL, but my DSL is flaking right now so I can't confirm). You > may find stuff there. > > Rob Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:38:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Looking for a spare rim or 2 (or 4 aluminum ones) I've got several steelies... I'll sell you a pair for $20 and the tires have already been removed. :^D You can stop by next time on your way to/from BC - and even bring me that axle housing... ;) Paul - --- James Blair wrote: > A: Cheapies to throw my snow tires on just in case (it was snowing where > I was in BC on tuesday and wednesday!) > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:42:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: xj: Lift Kits & Shocks Yes, you can buy most lifts w/o shocks. Some shops will even sell you the kit you want with the shocks you want at a package deal price. Paul (runs RS9000's :) Robert Glover wrote: > Here are two questions... first, what seems to be the best tire size to run > with a 4.5" lift? Second, can you get any of these lift kits without > shocks? I really would prefer to run Rancho RS9000's rather than anything > else... Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:06:19 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: xj: New Member, New Owner A: Congrats! Do you have a 2.5L GM Iron Duke in there or AMC 4 banger? The reason I ask is because several AMC-list guys found Iron Dukes in theirs, and they all had the Chev small block bolt pattern. In '85 they went to the same as 2.8L pattern. They also ran light duty T4s and T5s with the Iron Duke and some of the AMC 2.5L till late '86, but that may have been the Comanches only (like mine). From: "Robert Glover" Hi... I just joined this list yesterday. I wanted to lurk for a bit before posting, but I've only seen three posts so far. Anyway... As of a half hour ago, I'm the new owner of a 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 with the 2.5L and 5sp. It has over 200k on it, and the motor has some issues related to idle and cooling. Other than that, it's fine. Body is in great shape, no rust. Interior is downright immaculate save for the dog hair. As near as I can tell so far, it has the Dana 30 front and 35c rear. No tow package, and no power options. Price? Paid $300 for it. She was moving and had just bought a new (gag) Honda CRV and didn't need the Jeep anymore. So... now to decide what to do with it. What I _want_ to do, if I can keep the cost down, is convert it into a nice off-roader. I've been surfing the various XJ message boards (jeepsunlimited.com and extremejeep.com), and have come to the conclusion that the entire drivetrain will have to go. The little 4cyl just won't cut it. I don't know what motor to put in it yet... thinking about either a newer 4.0 I-6, except somebody said I'd have to modify the firewall to make it fit. I really want to drop in a Cummins B3.9, but not only is it quite heavy, it may also require firewall mods (and would be the most expensive motor to choose). Also thinking about a Chevy LS1 Corvette motor because it's 4" shorter than a regular SBC and 60 lbs lighter (weighs the same as the 4.0 I-6), but will make nearly 300 hp at the wheels in totally stock form. I know of a local who managed to shoehorn an LT1 motor into his '88, and I'm trying to track him down to get more info. Once I figure out what motor to use, I'll look for a better transfer case... maybe the NV231. Would the NV241 from a half-ton RAM truck fit? Or is there something even better? As long as it doesn't cost me a fortune, I'll consider it. Then there are the axles. What do you guys recommend? I was thinking a Dana 60 out back and 44 up front, or is that overkill? I'm thinking about a 4.5" lift and 30-32" tires. Beyond that, I don't know. I'm new to the off-road and 4x4 game, so I hope I don't sound like a blithering idiot spouting off at the mouth.   If any of these ideas are so off the wall that they'd never work, please speak up. I'm open to all suggestions! :) Thanks! Rob ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 08:16:51 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: brake booster Whit, I don't know the exact year bracket, but I do know (by comparing part #'s at dealer) that a between a 95 XJ and 98 ZJ Boosters are different part #'s but same price (does this mean they're ACTUALLY different parts? don't know but suspect they are) Master cylinder and resevior are same part numbers Prop valves are different part numbers Bill Whit wrote: > Is the XJ booster the same as the ZJ in the 95+ years? > > Whit > > At 05:00 PM 12/8/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Doug Wright wrote: > > > > > I want to upgrade my brakes and am considering just swapping the brake > > > booster to the newer style (dual-diaphram). My 88 has the old > > > single-diaphram type. Is this a straight swap or do I need other parts? > > > >Unless you have removed the airbox, the longer booster wont fit unless you > >also use the newer shorter Master cylinder > > > > > > > > What model years have the newer style? > > > >95+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:39:28 EST From: S1120-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: brake booster In a message dated 12/08/2000 6:32:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, list-at-letsgojeepin.com writes: << all good to get your parts for less and all. but i suggest talking to the manager instead of pretending to be a shop. you will lose all credibility once theu ask for some documentation or a license or a tax number.....and it makes it that much harder for "real" businesses to establish accounts at places when people do this. just my 2 cents as a business owner... Dora-ble >> Ya, I have to second that. Working at a dealer parts department, I see this every once in a wile. We can pick them out a mile away. Some time it is fun to make them squirm. If we have never hurd of the shop before, we always get a tax #. But we also have a few customers who buy a lot of stuff from us that we give a discount to. The key is, DONT walk in and say "I have tried to get this everywhere, but could not find it, so I am coming to you" or "I usley get my stuff from [fill in blank] but they say it is a dealer only part" This will NOT get you a discount. Paul Bradway 86 Cherokee 72 LTD convertible 70 Mustang ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:56:29 EST From: S1120-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: brake booster In a message dated 12/08/2000 6:59:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, samfans-at-sprint.ca writes: << Besides, it just means a business owner needs to negotiate a better deal - it's not like the "jobber" rate is the same as cost - that's usually 50% less again or more. Ask the dealer to see the total price sheet on some common items - there are about 4 to 6 for most items - from production cost to"retail" price. >> Well, I don't know how demistic car dealers are, but I work for a VW, Mazda dealer. On most of are parts we make only 40%. Are discount to shops are 20-25%. We give a 10-20% discount to good customers. Now the only reason we give so much to the shops, is to get there business. With the much higher markups the the aftermarket stores, we have to almost give it away to stay completive. Oh, also, This is what we have to do with our 15-20% we get to keep. We have to stock a few 100G's of parts [so people don't say" But your the dealer, why don't you have it"] Keep a delivery truck on the road, Pay three peoples salary [we really need a 4th, if any one lives in NY, and wont's to deliver parts tell me],Pay the over head, Commissions for the parts guys[thats me, hay I have to make a liveing also, so I have money to dump into my toys], And a little profit for the dealer, to keep him in business, so you can buy the cars, and parts to fix them. Paul Bradway 86 Cherokee 72 LTD convertible 70 Mustang ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:00:37 EST From: S1120-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: F-Body Friends OK, now th hard stuff. Can the 3.4L be swapped over to a carb? Paul Bradway 86 Cherokee 72 LTD convertible 70 Mustang ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 14:08:34 -0000 From: "Robert Bubala" Subject: xj: United - BLM OHV strategy - responses needed! Just received from Carla Boucher (United Four Wheel Drive Legislative Advocate), please read and respond ASAP! Thanks, Robert Bubala Iron Horse 4x4s, Inc. http://home.off-road.com/~iron ======================================================================== As always, this information will be available on-line at: www.wi4wda.org/carlaboucher WHAT: On December 4, 2000, the BLM announced the availability of the Draft OHV Management Strategy. HOW IT EFFECT UFWDA: The deadline for submitting comments on the Draft OHV Management Strategy is January 3, 2001. This comment period is much too short. There are too many OHV-related policy changes going on right now to be able to adequately deal with them all within 30 days. For instance, the Final Planning Rule was published on November, 9, 2000; the Roadless Area Conservation FEIS is available for comments until December 14, 2000, at which time the Final Rule will be published, and now the Draft OHV Management Strategy is out for just 30 days. Paper copies of the Draft were not automatically mailed to everyone who contributed comments on the OHV Mailer. Therefore, the only way to access the Draft is through the Internet or by visiting a BLM office. However, the BLM offices were not expected to receive paper copies of the Draft until today, 12/08/00. People who can not afford a computer or Internet service should not be penalized. All Americans should receive the same chance to respond. Also, the BLM has stated that it will review all comments made between January 3, 2001 and January 19, 2001, just 12 business days. It is premature for the BLM to commit to such a short turn-around before they know how many comments will be made in response to the Draft. Finally, I see no reason why the BLM is in such a rush to finalize the strategy over the Christmas and New Years holiday. Therefore, please use the form letter below to request a 30-day extension of the comment period. PLEASE SEND YOUR REQUEST BY U.S. MAIL. This is important. Since we are claiming that the BLM is causing economical and technological disparity between Americans by penalizing those citizens who do not have computer or Internet access, we should bolster that claim by utilizing the US Mail. It would be seem hypocritical to stand up for the rights of all Americans without computers and do so using the computer and the internet. *************************************** FORM LETTER *************************************** BLM OHV Strategy U.S. Department of the Interior Bureau of Land Management 1849 C Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20240 December 8, 2000 Dear Strategy Team, The release of the Draft OHV Management Strategy was announced on December 4, 2000. As you know, the public has been invited to submit comments regarding this Draft until January 3, 2001. I am requesting a 30-day extension of time for public commenting from January 3, 2001, until February 5, 2001, for the following reasons. 1) Although release of the Draft was announced on December 4, 2000, the BLM stated that "paper copies of the document will be available from the Bureau's State Offices and its Washington, D.C., Office by December 8. Despite the growing popularity and availability of the Internet, many Americans do not have Internet access or computers, and must rely upon the availability of paper copies. Therefore, since paper copies were not available in some locations until December 8, Americans without computer access are penalized with a comment period which is one week shorter than those more fortunate citizens who have computer access. I am sure that the BLM does not want to penalize Americans because of economic or technological disparity. 2) The BLM has pre-determined that it will process all comments, regardless of how large the number, between January 3, 2001 (the comment deadline) and January 19, 2001. The BLM has done a commendable job in involving the public in the important task of promoting environmentally sound OHV use. It would be a shame to tarnish that record at this late date by rushing Americans to make comments and rushing the analysis team in reviewing Draft comments. I believe it is a mistake to set a 12-day (business days) time-frame for analysis of the Draft comments before the BLM knows the volume of comments that may be made. Managing OHV use in an environmentally sound way is extremely important and should not be short-changed by rushing to conclusion now. Please extend the public comment period for the Draft OHV Management Strategy until February 5, 2001. Sincerely yours, (Please sign, and put all address info too) _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 07:36:20 -0700 From: Donna&Joe Subject: xj: diesels - pro&con Being a diesel-wannabe, I found some serious food for thought in reading a couple gas vs. diesel articles at http://www.yachtsurvey.com/engines.htm. [XJ content here:] Over the years and thousands of road-trip miles with my wife (often towing our 1100# camper), I find myself thinking the only thing I'd change about my '92 XJ, besides making it quieter, would be a front bench seat. Thus, I keep waiting to hear that D-Chrysler is gonna put Detroit Diesel's 4.0L "Delta" engine in the Dakota QCab so I can be first in line to buy one. Recognizing that the aforementioned articles focus on marine engines, the guy still has some good points that make me wonder if diesel's the most practical choice. Not so much looking for advice, but wanted to point John & other diesel fanatics to the articles. I'd be interested in any comments/rebuttals you all might have, but I imagine it'd be best to take it off-list unless you can make the XJ-related stretch. Thanks! Joe Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:10:11 -0700 From: "Aaron Storms" Subject: xj: Re: pinging John, I'm not overjoyed to hear you say that the 360 is prone to major pinging! This is what I'm putting in my Commando project, so is there anything I can do to avoid this before installation? Aaron Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: john To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 6:54 PM Subject: xj: pinging > It sounds like it's morphed into an FSJ. The 360's do this something > terrible, maybe not as bad... ;) My 258 does occassionaly... but these > boat anchors are carb'd... fuel injected engines shouldn't outta do that... > > here's my thoughts: > > - temp seems high, 210 sounds too hot, try a lower tstat, if > you're running a 195, drop it down to 180 or even 160, 180 > first > - timing (is it really being controlled or is it too far advanced?) > - egr valve? > - vacuum leak (you're leaning out?) > - knock sensor (if it's not expensive, replace it...) > - check the advance mechanism on the distributer (if there is one, > I haven't messed much with my 4.0L, it's been so trouble > free...) > > fwiw, my little wagoneer seems to have started pinging... of course it > could be the exhaust manifold, I'd forgotten about the crack... it's got > 206,000 miles on the original setup... > > My 258 was pinging something terrible under load, and then I screwed up > and tanked up with super premium... hasn't pinged since, but I tell ya what > it WILL ping again 'cause I ain't spending an extra 6 bucks everytime I fill > that tank... ;) > > john > > > The engine: > > Basically a 4.5L stroked NHO with Renix intake and TB, Renix computer, > > renix head, HO injectors, HO cam, 98 pistons, Supposed to be quench > > compliant (block decked 20 thou), NHO stock plugs, stock ignition, HO > > exhaust manifold, K&N cone filter, Adjustable MAP turned up to 6-7 > > volts, 350 Ohm pot on the CTS, running 92 premium fuel. > > New CPS, TPS. Knock sensor checks out on scanner > >> The symptom: > > > Driving along, 60 km'h in OD, approx 1500 rpm, tip in the throttle about > > 1/4 to 1/2 (vaccum drops to about 6) and a guy under the hood with a > > metal tim of ball bearings goes nuts (ie it pings badly) > > > It runs at 210* F, regardless of temp outside or city/highway > > > The only other problem is the idle - it "hunts" a bit - vaccum varying > > from 18-20 in a more or less steady rhythm. > > > Bill > > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:27:54 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: xj: Re: diesels - pro&con From: "Donna&Joe" > Being a diesel-wannabe, I found some serious food for thought in reading a > couple gas vs. diesel articles at http://www.yachtsurvey.com/engines.htm. > Recognizing that the aforementioned articles focus on > marine engines, the guy still has some good points that make me wonder if > diesel's the most practical choice. Not so much looking for advice, but > wanted to point John & other diesel fanatics to the articles. I read the first part of the Gas vs. Diesel article. It sounds fairly gas-biased, at least until near the end when he points out that diesels in boats make the most sense after a certain weight. I agree with that completely. What I disagree with are the rebuild costs. He cited a $32xx cost to rebuild a 350 gas engine vs over $8000 for a Cat 3208. First, Cats are well known as being THE most expensive diesel engine to work on, as they require all special tools that are available only through Cat. On top of that, the 3208 was not that great of a motor anyway, as it was a V8. The only real diesels are I-6's or I-4's. Look under the hood of the semis and unless the truck is 20+ years old, you won't find a V8. Now, diesels in private vehicles, like SUVs makes a lot more sense. Like you said, the new Detroit Diesel Delta motor will be an awesome option in the Jeep and Dodge product lines. I'd buy one in a second. SUVs are usually the primary transportation for their owners, so the corrosion issue the author spoke of isn't a concern. What he is somewhat right about, though, is that diesels do like to run for extended periods. This means you don't want to be owning a diesel as your primary vehicle if you live only a few miles from work. In that case, you're better off with a gas engine. I don't recall the technical terms for this, but I can dig them up if anybody wants to know for sure. It has something to do, I think, with moisture or condensation that may be in the motor or in the oil getting to boil out. It sounds odd, but it's something like that. The new Delta motor, if I remember right, is supposed to make something like 200 hp and 325-350 lbs-ft. Pretty darn good torque. I can see this being a big advantage to SUV drivers, and even off-roaders. It's also supposed to be as quiet as a gas engine, and not have that typical diesel clattering noise. I would LOVE a new Grand Cherokee with one. The main reason I dislike SUVs is they get such awful mileage. My dad had a 1990 Cherokee Laredo 4.0 for a few years. He said the best mileage he got was about 15 mpg, and he drives pretty sedately. I drove it for a tankful and got 12. With the diesel, I would realistically expect 18-19 around town and mid to upper 20's on the highway. Heck, there are some Cummins RAM owners who are reporting (without exaggeration) low 20's on the highway in their 7000 lb. trucks (at 60-65 mph). Then there's the hot rod factor. IF the Delta's injection pump (the heart of any diesel engine) is as flexible as either the Bosch P7100 (from the B5.9) or the VP44 (from the ISB), then hot rodders will be in hog heaven. As Paul pointed out, it's really easy to up the power in the Cummins motors. My '96 RAM had 350 hp and 900 lbs-ft from only $500 worth of parts (a cam plate change in the pump and a bigger exhaust housing for the turbo). My new '01 RAM currently has 275 hp and about 730 lbs-ft, all from one $600 plug-in computer module. Total install time: 5 minutes. Now, imagine being able to take your new Delta-powered Cherokee and plug in a computer module and give it 300 hp and 500 lbs-ft. Imagine the satisfaction of tearing up the 302 V8-powered Ford Exploders (not that they're fast to begin with, I bet the 4.0 I-6 Cherokees can beat 'em anyway). Okay, I think I've rambled on long enough. Did I mention "Jeep," "Cherokee," and "XJ" enough to qualify as staying on-topic? ;) Rob PS: You get used to the smell of diesel fuel after a while. Now I can't stand the smell of gasoline. ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1013 *************************