From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Dec 25 18:39:28 2000 From: xj-digest xj-digest Sunday, December 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1028 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: forestry XJ question xj: Re: forestry XJ question Re: xj: 3 New Flex Pics Re: xj: Rustys 6" springs etc. Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience xj: impending projects... Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience Re: xj: Re: forestry XJ question xj: ZJ coils? Re: xj: ZJ coils? Re: xj: ZJ coils? xj: foaming oil xj: Idle... ... problems Re: xj: Idle... ... problems XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Dec 100 01:53:22 -1000 (HST) From: Alan Chung Subject: xj: forestry XJ question Hey All Just had a quick question, my friend is going to the auction to pick up a mint green Cherokee. Its a 92, with AT, 4.0L, 4WD...most likely it is pretty basic with off-road package and HD cooling and electrical. What do you think is the fair price for it? It has only 67K miles on it, but it is a govt vehicle. What do you guys think? Thanks for any help! Mahalo Alan Chung 90 Cherokee Limited 4.6 Honolulu, HI Bellingham, WA P.S. I figured $5K for it? I dont really now... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:57:57 -0600 From: "Dora, Let's Go Jeepin, Inc." Subject: xj: Re: forestry XJ question not really an answer to your question...but a pic of what can be done after your friend gets it :) http://www.trjc.net/Trail%20pictures%20jpg/Mvc-147s.jpg (guy in one of the clubs i'm in) http://www.trjc.net/Trail%20pictures%20jpg/Mvc-156s.jpg Dora-ble (closing for holidays 12/23, reopening 1/15) happy, healthy, and safe holidays to our friends, clients, and customers! 97 XJ and TJ Chicago http://www.letsgojeepin.com Let's Go Jeepin, Inc. 4WD Training and Adventures Parts and Recovery Gear Outfitters - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Chung" To: "XJ L" Cc: "XJ list" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 5:54 AM Subject: xj: forestry XJ question > Hey All > > Just had a quick question, my friend is going to the auction > to pick up a mint green Cherokee. Its a 92, with AT, 4.0L, 4WD...most > likely it is pretty basic with off-road package and HD cooling and > electrical. What do you think is the fair price for it? It has only > 67K miles on it, but it is a govt vehicle. What do you guys think? > Thanks for any help! > > Mahalo Alan Chung 90 Cherokee Limited 4.6 Honolulu, HI > Bellingham, WA > > P.S. I figured $5K for it? I dont really now... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:55:46 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: 3 New Flex Pics Yeah, Ray is an awesome guy, we do a lot together, he's helping me and some others build are rock rails. All the pics I have you should find on my Jeep sites. Yeah, it's a 5.2L 318, ;). He's gotta D60 rear, and D44 in the front to handle the power. He actually had the 30 in front for a long time, until recently. And yes, that's good ole Greg trying the same hill. He was dragging his huge axles on the bumps. I think he wound up taking the by-pass, especially after what happened to me. I think only one guy made up that part until I rolled it, and the rest took the by-pass. As for what happened, I had open diff, and the hill was too steep, loose dirt, etc, etc, I was spinning the tires, so I was trying different lines, and I was doing somthing I shouldn't have been doing, which was backing down, and nobody was spotting me, so I got at to much of an angle, started to slide, fell into a rut, and then all that momentum turned me over. :(. I know better now, STRAP IT! lol. Jeff wrote: > > Mike, I looked at the pics of your roll. How did you get in that > predicament? It looked like you were going up the hill fine, but then > you were sideways and gravity took over. Also, do you have any pics of > Rays ride? I saw some pics from NAXJA's Moab run and hear that he has a > 318 V-8 in there, right? I sure would like to see some closeups of the > engine, axles, steering, hood etc. :) Is that Greg Friedman you are > wheeling with also? Jeff > > Mike G wrote: > > > > I'm not even fully flexed in these pics, but it's preaty > > close, hehe. > > http://www.mike-g.net/jeep/yinyang/pics.html > > > > thanks to Charles for the pics. > > > > -- > > Mike Gagos > > mike-g-at-mike-g.net > > http://www.mike-g.net/ > > ICQ: 1734225 - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:01:15 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: Rustys 6" springs etc. I wonder who makes Rusty's, I've got his 4.5's, and with my MJ shackle it gives me 4.5, and that's with a full size 32" spare on a steel rim just sitting in the trunk, along with my tools, etc, what not. I'm gonna be getting a rear bumper, tire carrier next month, prolly C4X4, and I'm afraid, very afraid, lol. I'll probobly getting a 1.5" lift shackle and a 1.5" block to compensate. Jeff wrote: > > Aaron, I bought a set of Nationals a long time ago for big bucks. They > didn't give enough lift right off the bat and sagged ever since. I > finally replaced them with some used (one week) Rusty's 4.5" springs. > Even with a 6" shackle, I was low in the rear by 2" or so. I used a 2" > block for a week and talked to Rusty about the springs. He could only > offer me a slight deal on a set of 6"ers (which is what the guy I bought > the 4.5"ones from did). So, I added the three short stiff leaves from > the National pack which are pretty much like a tapered block and three > other National leaves. This whole thing combined with the 6" shackle > has held the rear at 6" pretty nicely for the last few months. Oh, I > had previously rotated the spring pads to point the pinion up and had to > add a reverse shim to bring the pinion down some with the Rusty's > springs. The guy I bought the Rusty 4.5" springs from installed Rusty's > 6" packs and I think they have held up well. He has a stock rear bumper > and doesn't carry a lot of weight though as far as I know. I think > Rusty's 6" pack is pretty good. However, I believe the RE rear pack > gives about 5" of lift and holds up well too. Pretty sure it is made by > Alcan Spring in Grand Junction. Jeff > > Storms wrote: > > > > Cool - makes me feel better then! Guess I'll go ahead with my order then. > > Thanks Bob, Aaron > > Aaron Storms > > Black Hawk, CO > > aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Mock > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 6:14 AM > > Subject: Re: xj: Re: New to THIS List, lol > > > > > Aaron, I have rusty's 6" springs and I've flexed them and hauled a heavy > > > trailer with them and I haven't noticed any sagging. I have heard others > > > with problems, But the set I got in July were great so far. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > At 08:49 PM 12/21/00 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Mike, I was getting ready to buy some of Rusty's 6" rear leaf springs in > > Jan > > > >but have heard from more than one source that they sag quite a bit > > shortly > > > >after installing them - has this been your situation too? Aaron > > > > > > > >Aaron Storms > > > >Black Hawk, CO > > > >aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:07:15 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience LOL, ok, so Rusty's leafs arn't the greatest, but what about his coils? I'd have to say his coils are awesome! They are so flexy it's unbeleivable, the spring rate is closer to stock, lol. Not to menchion I'm getting 6" out of his 4.5" coil and an extra isolator. Lots of people also menchioned getting a acouple extra inches then advertised. Now letsee, you say RE coils didn't give enough lift? Am I the only one seeing this? (GET RE LEAFS, GET RUSTYS COILS!) Michael A Cummings wrote: > > Hi list, > > I've had the RE 4.5" lift on my '88 for over a year now. I can't say that > I wheel super-hard, but the truck is put through its paces on a regular > basis. After about 6 months, I've noticed that the front seemed a little > lower than the rear. Going over some older pictures, I began to realize > that the truck was like that ever since the lift. The RE 4.5" rear springs > are closer to 5-5.5"; at LEAST. I've put a 1 3/4" coils spacer on the > front to level it out, and it sits great now. The front coils didn't sag > nearly 1 3/4", it's more like they were never more than 4.5" over stock to > begin with. I guess my point is that the RE's hold up incredibly, and > flex superbly when you consider the cost, compared with pricey national > springs. I don't run fender flares, only have 32's on 4.5" backspacing, > and still dent the snot out of my one quarter panel. This isn't > "rubbing" per say. The RE let's the axle flex so well that the truck is > able to smash the quarter panel as the suspension cycles. I don't have > any pictures of this carnage, but rest assured that this is a fine spring > pack. Very rigid over time, and very flexy at the same time. Check out a > couple pictures out at : > > http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/~m1c/demlers2.html > > Oh yeah, the front coils flex pretty well too.... > > ~mike C. > http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/~m1c > > > On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 XJGPN-at-aol.com wrote: > > > I don't mean to be offensive to anyone who has rusty's leaf springs but I > > really have to say this in order to prevent people from making what I > > consider to be a huge mistake. There is absolutely no comparison in the > > quality between the RE and the Rusty 6" leaf packs. The RE's are made by > > Alcan (IMHO better than national) they use the good style spring clips > > (U-shaped piece riveted to leaf with a bolt going across the top of the > > leafs) There are teflon pads between each leaf, and they actually give the > > advertised amount of lift. I am kicking myself for not having put these > > leafs on my truck sooner. They really are amazing. The amount of flex they > > give is downright obscene... and my shocks and e-brake lines are horribly > > limiting travel... I can't wait to see what I can really get out of them. > > The ride is great and there is no axle wrap. I have looked at my RE springs > > side by side with an XJ with Rusty's 6" spring and Rusty's springs are a joke > > in comparison. I don't want this to be taken as a bash on rusty, I love his > > stuff and I use a lot of it on my truck... but in the spring department he is > > clearly outdone by RE. > > > > > > In a message dated 12/22/2000 1:19:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > jayers-at-win.bright.net writes: > > > > << Aaron, I bought a set of Nationals a long time ago for big bucks. They > > didn't give enough lift right off the bat and sagged ever since. I > > finally replaced them with some used (one week) Rusty's 4.5" springs. > > Even with a 6" shackle, I was low in the rear by 2" or so. I used a 2" > > block for a week and talked to Rusty about the springs. He could only > > offer me a slight deal on a set of 6"ers (which is what the guy I bought > > the 4.5"ones from did). So, I added the three short stiff leaves from > > the National pack which are pretty much like a tapered block and three > > other National leaves. This whole thing combined with the 6" shackle > > has held the rear at 6" pretty nicely for the last few months. Oh, I > > had previously rotated the spring pads to point the pinion up and had to > > add a reverse shim to bring the pinion down some with the Rusty's > > springs. The guy I bought the Rusty 4.5" springs from installed Rusty's > > 6" packs and I think they have held up well. He has a stock rear bumper > > and doesn't carry a lot of weight though as far as I know. I think > > Rusty's 6" pack is pretty good. However, I believe the RE rear pack > > gives about 5" of lift and holds up well too. Pretty sure it is made by > > Alcan Spring in Grand Junction. Jeff >> - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:25:53 EST From: XJGPN-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience While probably not a dramatic difference, there is something to be said for springs that were designed to work with each other... ie. RE f/r since the sets were made knowing the spring rate of the opposite ends.... In a message dated 12/23/2000 5:08:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, mike-g-at-mike-g.net writes: << (GET RE LEAFS, GET RUSTYS COILS!) >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:04:05 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: impending projects... Well, I looked at floor shifters this afternoon for SuperDawg. I found a B&M, p/n 80775, listed at Jim Green's (performance or speed shop, forget which... we were buying a tach for a Christmas present for someone ... ;) for $123.52. I'm gonna check Summit and Jegs before buying. I also found out that Jim Green's sells his tachs for about the same price that "uncle al" does at Evergreen, so I guess he didn't rip me off... guess I need to shop mail order rather... and we paid too much for the other tach too... but hey, it's Dec 23!!! To do the T-5 to 727 swap I'll need a flex plate from a 258, tranny and torque converter. I'll be mixing and matching since I want to get one that goes to a V8 and not the weaker version. Also want the lockup version, so I'll need one from an 81 and up. Any idea if the flexplate from the 360 will work on the 258? If it weren't for all the trouble in getting the Aisin Warner to work with the 258, I'd love to do that... In fact, I just got the "core" from the guy that bought my good AW4. I'm wondering if the Howell TBI kit is different for the AT... I'm still trying to decide if I really want to give up a 5 speed for a slushbox... I guess my back is telling me it's the right thing... traffic is only going to get worse... :( Well, lots to do... speaker swap in the little wagoneer... and injector work on the Benz... oh wait, still have more shopping to do... yikes... later, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:39:53 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience How come everyone gets nationals in the rear and somebodys coils up front? Obviously not that dramatic. XJGPN-at-aol.com wrote: > > While probably not a dramatic difference, there is something to be said for > springs that were designed to work with each other... ie. RE f/r since the > sets were made knowing the spring rate of the opposite ends.... > > In a message dated 12/23/2000 5:08:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mike-g-at-mike-g.net writes: > > << (GET RE LEAFS, GET RUSTYS COILS!) >> - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:42:56 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience That's what I had recommended to me. Nat'l in the rear, RE 4.5" ZJ coils up front. Phil - ----Original Message Follows---- From: Mike G Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: RE's springs and my experience Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:39:53 -0800 How come everyone gets nationals in the rear and somebodys coils up front? Obviously not that dramatic. XJGPN-at-aol.com wrote: > > While probably not a dramatic difference, there is something to be said for > springs that were designed to work with each other... ie. RE f/r since the > sets were made knowing the spring rate of the opposite ends.... > > In a message dated 12/23/2000 5:08:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mike-g-at-mike-g.net writes: > > << (GET RE LEAFS, GET RUSTYS COILS!) >> - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:02:46 -0800 (PST) From: Lutin Plunder Subject: Re: xj: Re: forestry XJ question WOOT, I'm not the only one. Forestry rigs rule, no extra stuff. perfect for those of us who want to make a real trail rig. now that I've calmed down, here's what I paid for mine $1900 (although I had clutch/tranny problems that brought the price up to about $5000) mine has a Pugeot tranny, 4.0L, NP231, D30 front and the D44 rear. all in all I think it was worth it (beats trying to find a D44) ===== Rob "Lutin Plunder" Dome; A+, Network+ 1987 Jeep Cherokee Utility Dana30-4.0L-BA10/5-NP231-Dana44 2" lift in front and 2.5" lift in the rear I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine - Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:11:01 -0800 (PST) From: Lutin Plunder Subject: xj: ZJ coils? I must me tired... what is the height difference between XJ and ZJ coils isn't it like 2"? ===== Rob "Lutin Plunder" Dome; A+, Network+ 1987 Jeep Cherokee Utility Dana30-4.0L-BA10/5-NP231-Dana44 2" lift in front and 2.5" lift in the rear I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine - Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:14:49 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: ZJ coils? 1 to 2 higher for ZJ's. Lutin Plunder wrote: > > I must me tired... what is the height difference > between XJ and ZJ coils isn't it like 2"? > > ===== > Rob "Lutin Plunder" Dome; A+, Network+ > 1987 Jeep Cherokee Utility > Dana30-4.0L-BA10/5-NP231-Dana44 > 2" lift in front and 2.5" lift in the rear > > I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine > - Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:18:58 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: ZJ coils? Yeah Rob, it's ~2". That's why the RE 4.5" ZJ coils work for 6" XJ coils. Phil - ----Original Message Follows---- From: Lutin Plunder Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: XJ Digest Subject: xj: ZJ coils? Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:11:01 -0800 (PST) I must me tired... what is the height difference between XJ and ZJ coils isn't it like 2"? ===== Rob "Lutin Plunder" Dome; A+, Network+ 1987 Jeep Cherokee Utility Dana30-4.0L-BA10/5-NP231-Dana44 2" lift in front and 2.5" lift in the rear I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine - Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:30:04 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: foaming oil someone asked: >My question is I found foaming oil as we checked the oil dip stick What >does that mean?? When you say foaming, is it creamy colored or foam with bubbles only? If creamy colored you have moisture in your engine. That could be caused by a clogged vent/breather, excessive blow by or too low of a thermostat temp. I've got a condition like this on my '83 J10 Stepside. I believe the problem is two fold, one my breather is not working correctly, and I also believe I have too cool of a Thermostat. I'm running synthetic oil and it tends to let the moisture stay up on top. Water doesn't mix into synthethic like other oils, so you get a bit of a cream on top. My problem is easy to resolve, fix the breather and bump up the Tstat... If bubbly, then it might the oil itself, or you have too much in the crankcase and moving parts are hitting it (unlikely). I've found that some brands of oil foam, Pennzoil and Valvoline immediately come to mind. I've seen those two brands foam and bubble, and also make a mess inside the engine. Now the cases I've seen were ones where neglect had occurred. But after you've seen the inside of an engine that's been neglected and maintained with those products... you steer clear of them. :) There are other things that could be causing the oil to foam. The worst of those things could be a bad oil pump or other problems in your oiling system. What's the oil pressure like? Any lifter noise? How long has the oil been in the engine? Do you allow it to warm all the way up? Is the foam there when warm but allowed to sit for a few minutes? What brand of oil and what weight? Other things that could cause foaming is excessive blowby... but you'd have other symptoms like excessive oil coming out the pcv and breather and possibly oil fouled plugs and tailpipe smoke. (It's hard to see burning oil any more with catalytic converters... except of course in Chrysler mini-vans that ran pennzoil or valvoline 5w30... ;) Summary of questions: oil brand? oil weight? oil age? engine temperature during normal operation? thermostat temp? engine warm? miles on engine any oil in the air cleaner? lifter noise? oil pressure good? do you let it warm all the way up? I guess I asked more questions than I answered. :) My guess at this point is the brand of oil used. Some oils just seem to foam. I've drained Pennzoil that had been freshly installed by a dealer and it foamed like crazy... (I was converting one of my "new" Jeep to Amsoil...) I wasn't sure if I was draining oil or dish soap or maybe even ATF... but ATF doesn't foam as much as that fresh pennzoil did... If the foam is creamy then it's either blowby or a bad breather setup, or too low of a tstat... I'll post the summary of the findings later. :) when I get more info. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:11:47 -0500 From: "K BOCK" Subject: xj: Idle... ... problems All right 88 MJ with 4.0L ext. 139,000 ... first problem I am getting a fast Idle even after the engine is warmed up ..(here comes the kicker) ... its intermittent. example.. been driving for 30 min.. pull up to a light .. in D .1000 rpms. slip it up to N 1500 rpms to 2000 rpms second problem oil press... 60-80 psi ... all the time should it be much lower taking the miles and age into considerations. here is what I have done . 1st cps sensor 2nd thermostat 3rd oil pressure sending unit 4th general tune up.. plugs wires cap ect... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:03:10 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Idle... ... problems REccommend clean and check IAS. Check and adjust/replace TPS clean Throttle body well with combustion chamber cleaner and a toothbrush - also spray some in while running. Bill K BOCK wrote: > All right 88 MJ with 4.0L ext. 139,000 ... > > first problem > > I am getting a fast Idle even after the engine is warmed up ..(here comes > the kicker) ... its intermittent. > > example.. been driving for 30 min.. pull up to a light .. in D .1000 rpms. > slip it up to N 1500 rpms to 2000 rpms > > second problem > > oil press... 60-80 psi ... all the time should it be much lower taking the > miles and age into considerations. > > here is what I have done . > > 1st cps sensor > 2nd thermostat > 3rd oil pressure sending unit > 4th general tune up.. plugs wires cap ect... > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1028 *************************