From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 3 10:01:42 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Wednesday, January 3 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1041 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: Re: the xj's 2.5L Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L Re: xj: Re: the xj's 2.5L xj: Re: fsj: Re: IRT A-727's - Say What? Re: Jeff et al. Question Re: xj: Yoke swapping Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach Re: xj: how to get hub nut off xj: 2.5L Stroker??? Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L Re: xj: how to get hub nut off xj: fwd: looking for wagoneers Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach xj: Torque Corrections (long) Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:39:09 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: Re: the xj's 2.5L Robert Glover wrote: > > From: "john" > > > The xj never, ever, ever had a GM 2.5L engine, the 2.5L found in > > the xj is an AMC design, and excellent motor that will easily run > > 200,000 miles without major work. It is a derivative of the 4.2L > > as the 4.0L was developed from the work done on the 2.5L and has > > many similarities to the 4.2L, as the stroker folks have discovered. :) > > Does this mean I might have a chance of finding reasonably-priced stroker > parts for my 4-cyl? :) > > Once I get the thing running again, I'm going to do a leakdown test. If it > still looks good, I'll probably only go as far as a bigger carb and some > exhaust work, then leave it alone until it requires a rebuild. Uhh, bigger carb? The 2.5L 4 banger is fuel injected, you won't find a carburetor. The 2.8L V6 has carb though. > > I don't know if AMC exported xj's with a GM motor other than a 2.8L v6, > > which I personally believe was the worse motor ever installed in a Jeep > > vehicle... and that includes the french renault 2.1L all aluminum turbo > > Diesel. ;) > > I'd really like to find more info on that 2.1L diesel... it mighta been a > good little motor if the injection pump was any good. Dammit, I still wanna > put a Cummins B3.9 in mine. :) > > Rob > - 84 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp 204k miles - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:40:10 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach Just go to a junk yard and find one with the guages. I've seen em before, just sitting there. Thought you need the senders or somthing, and it has to be a certain year. There is a guy on the "other list", that knows all about it. Robert Glover wrote: > > From: "Paul W." > > > And if you want more gauges, check into those gauge pods that mount on top > of > > the dash or on the A-pillar. > > I just want a tach in the spot where it belongs. I was going to redo the > whole cluster using VDO (or some other brand) guages, but there isn't room > for a 5" tach, a 5" speedo, and four 2" other guages. It appears (from a > glance) that the stock guages are 4" and 1.5" or 1.75". > > Rob - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:42:14 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L A: Only '84 XJs came with the Iron Puke 2.5L motor (as well as many CJ & Postal Jeeps, but that's another lot of creatures) I'm forwarding this on to Frank Swygert, editor of AIM magazine (American Independant Motors, not guns!), and he can set the record straight (probably has pics too. I know Miah on the AMC-list had a couple and was amazed when he saw one with an AMC 4 cyl in it. He may have put that in his Eagle) From: john I just glanced at the digest and saw jim make a reference to the GM 2.5L engine dropping timing chains... The xj never, ever, ever had a GM 2.5L engine, the 2.5L found in the xj is an AMC design, and excellent motor that will easily run 200,000 miles without major work. It is a derivative of the 4.2L as the 4.0L was developed from the work done on the 2.5L and has many similarities to the 4.2L, as the stroker folks have discovered. :) I don't know if AMC exported xj's with a GM motor other than a 2.8L v6, which I personally believe was the worse motor ever installed in a Jeep vehicle... and that includes the french renault 2.1L all aluminum turbo Diesel. ;) the 2.5L in the Cherokee is an AMC motor through and through. I don't know what the bobtails had or if they ever had the iron duck, can't tell ya about that one, but I can tell ya about the XJ and the SJ. They've never seen a GM 4 cylinder engine. :) john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:42:22 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: Re: the xj's 2.5L From: "Mike G" > Uhh, bigger carb? The 2.5L 4 banger is fuel injected, you > won't find a carburetor. The 2.8L V6 has carb though. Mine is. 1984 model. Little 1-bbl unit. I don't think they went to FI until a few years later. http://www.jeeptech.com/engine/amc150.html Scroll to the bottom for the 1984-1987 entry. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:26:46 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: Re: fsj: Re: IRT A-727's - Say What? On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, James Blair wrote: >-->A: Wasn't me that said there was NO cooling in park! (that's from the >-->factory manual) There is less pressure and flow through the cooling >-->lines in park, but the fluid does flow. Take a cooling line off, start >-->your Jeep in park, and it will dribble. Then put it in drive and watch >-->the fluid jet out! I'd call that no cooling in Park... :) john >--> >-->On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Paul W. wrote: >-->john wrote: >-->My other beef is the 727 trans... no cooling in park!!! what bird brain >-->set that up??? Had I known that I could have spared my tranny on Old >-->Blue! When I was doing some hard wheeling I'd idle in Park to let things >-->cool down!!!! >-->Who told you that anyway??? I asked a couple of reputable Mopar tranny >-->folks >-->the amazing James Blair. His logic seemed plausible. I didn't test it >-->though when I had a 727 to see if fluid was flowing in park... of course >-->when I had a 727 I didn't know Jim Blair. :) >-->about that when I had my A-904 rebuilt because I was worried that this >-->might have been carried over into their lighter designs and because I >-->remembered you mentioning it before. Both said, "WHAT? A-727 >-->Torque-Flites cool in Park!" (and so do the lightweight Torque-Flites >-->like the A-904, 909, 999, etc.) >-->I think he said it was peculiar to the lockup torque converter equipped >-->727's used in SJ's. >-->One guy is a professional auto tranny rebuilder (and the guy who rebuilt >-->my A-904), the other is my old boss and he rebuilds his own A-727's that >-->are used behind the 800 horse 440 in his '70 Dart. (I think that car >-->puts a little more strain on a 727 than an AMC 360 in a Grand Waggie - >-->see the link ;) >-->http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=937759&a=6989209&p=23568492 >-->I know back in the early 70's we refered to Chrysler trannies as >-->bulletproof and "Elephant" power... unfortunately my experience with the >-->727 in big Jeeps hasn't substantiated that myth. :( >-->john >-->        ---- >--> >-->************************************* >-->JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche >-->http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html >-->************************************** >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 17:12:57 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: Re: Jeff et al. Question Re: xj: Yoke swapping Bill, one of the boxes that contained the new yokes has a Spicer label on it with the numbers 2-4-8091X. Below that number is the UPC code. There is also a date code in the corner. That's about all I can tell you. Jeff samfans wrote: > > Jeff, > > I tried to order this but all I got was the stock strp style yoke. > > can you confirm > 1) the part number for the yoke > 2) that it was indeed a yoke that uses the u-bolt style kit...of course it was - > why else would you have posted it and ordered the u-bolt kits too. disregard, but > please check the # for me if you can. > > The part i went to pick up came in a box with the number 2-4-8091-1X on the side > of the box. But the 1X was crossed out and in the box was the stock strap style > yoke. And I know sometimes that Spicer adds or deletes an X or the like to > differentiate betwwen similar products. And the place doesn't sell stuff by > application - so i can't just ask for a CJ yoke. > > Thanks > > Bill > > Jeff wrote: > > > Well, I ordered two DAN 2-4-8091x 1310 yokes for my axles. I also > > ordered two DAN 2-94-28x u-bolt kits for the yokes. The yokes were $24 > > each and the u-bolts were $3. Now that was back on 5/98. They both > > worked out just fine with the seals in the gear install kits. Jeff > > > > samfans wrote: > > > > > > Did NOT work out for me :-( > > > > > > Check the details and pics: > > > > > > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=212612&a=10453240 > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > Jeff wrote: > > > > > > > Yes Bill, you are probably correct. I bought new yokes when I did my > > > > gears a year or so ago and got the same yoke front and rear. That is > > > > D30 and D44 took the same yoke. Jeff > > > > > > > > samfans wrote: > > > > > > > > > > OK, as some of you know - I mistakenly mangled my new D44's yoke trying > > > > > to drill it for U-bolts as I successfully did with my D35. But the D44 > > > > > yoke does not have enough room behind for the nuts. > > > > > > > > > > Thing is, I took my old d35 yoke, and slid it onto the D44's original > > > > > 3.55 pinion, and it seemed to go on pretty well with some > > > > > encouragement. Now since the D44 yoke was once on this pinion, and is > > > > > now on the 4.56 pinion, does it not follow that the d35 yoke will fit on > > > > > the D44 4.56 pinion, in an A=B=C thing, and therefore that i can just > > > > > swap my old D35 yoke onto my new d44 456. > > > > > > > > > > Or am I nuts? > > > > > > > > > > Any issues with the seal that you can think of. > > > > > > > > > > I have both c-clip and non c-clip D35 yokes, and they are slightly > > > > > different. > > > > > > > > > > Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:47:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L john wrote: > the 2.5L in the Cherokee is an AMC motor through and through. I don't > know what the bobtails had or if they ever had the iron duck, can't tell > ya about that one, but I can tell ya about the XJ and the SJ. They've > never seen a GM 4 cylinder engine. :) Yes, AMC used the Iron Duke in CJ's from 80-81 up thru 83. In 84 they got the new AMC 2.5L four. (It may be possible that a few early 84's got left over GM 2.5's). The Iron Duke was also used in Postals (DJ's) as was an Audi four popper (same one used in the old pre-5000 Audi 100LS). Jim has said a few 84 XJ's either snuck out with GM 2.5's or got them as replacements. I can't confirm or deny that, but he is the only one I've ever heard that from. Paul Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach But he has a 4 popper... the tach from a 6 won't read right on a 4! _MOST_ 2.5L's are low trim levels, so the likelihood of finding a 4-cyl tach is slimmer. Though the 2.5L was available in the XJ Wagoneer in the early years, so it may not be impossible to find a 4-cyl gauge package, just a lot less likely. That's why the suggestion was made to go aftermarket. Paul - --- Mike G wrote: > Just go to a junk yard and find one with the guages. I've > seen em before, just sitting there. Thought you need the > senders or somthing, and it has to be a certain year. There > is a guy on the "other list", that knows all about it. > > Robert Glover wrote: > > > > From: "Paul W." > > > > > And if you want more gauges, check into those gauge pods that mount on > > > top of the dash or on the A-pillar. > > > > I just want a tach in the spot where it belongs. I was going to redo the > > whole cluster using VDO (or some other brand) guages, but there isn't room > > for a 5" tach, a 5" speedo, and four 2" other guages. It appears (from a > > glance) that the stock guages are 4" and 1.5" or 1.75". > > > > Rob Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:56:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: how to get hub nut off Bob, you can change the U-joint without removing the stub axle from the hub. (BTDT-on the 'Con :) You only _have_ to remove it when replacing just the hub or just the stub axle... then you use impact tools or a big breaker bar and a cheater pipe. :) Paul Bob Mock wrote: > So i replaced the upper and lower ball joints on both sides of the front > axle. It went pretty well. I had a hard time getting the drivers side hub > out and couldn't even get the hub nut off. Broke a large breaker bar and > socket wrench. Heated it, and everything. Then realized that i could > leave the shaft attached to the hub and just pull it out as one piece to > get the knuckle off. But anyway, come spring time or early summer i'm going > to have to get that hub off to replace that u-joint or maybe even that > hub. (starting to show it's wear) > > anyway..... if anyone has any tips to getting this off I'd greatly be > appreciated. > > Bob Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: xj: 2.5L Stroker??? Robert Glover wrote: > > The xj never, ever, ever had a GM 2.5L engine, the 2.5L found in > > the xj is an AMC design, and excellent motor that will easily run > > 200,000 miles without major work. It is a derivative of the 4.2L > > as the 4.0L was developed from the work done on the 2.5L and has > > many similarities to the 4.2L, as the stroker folks have discovered. :) > > Does this mean I might have a chance of finding reasonably-priced stroker > parts for my 4-cyl? :) A stroker 4? What's gonna give you a cheap stroker crank? The 4.0L strokers get theirs from the 258, but the 2.5L has no 4 cyl predicessor. Paul Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:00:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L Mike G wrote: > Uhh, bigger carb? The 2.5L 4 banger is fuel injected, you > won't find a carburetor. The 2.8L V6 has carb though. 84-85 XJ 2.5L's are carb'd... in the CJ it stayed carb'd thru 86. Paul Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:59:26 -0600 From: "Mike Petersen" Subject: Re: xj: how to get hub nut off I used mine for the perfect excuse to go buy that 3/4 inch socket set from Sears. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W." To: Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:56 PM Subject: Re: xj: how to get hub nut off Bob, you can change the U-joint without removing the stub axle from the hub. (BTDT-on the 'Con :) You only _have_ to remove it when replacing just the hub or just the stub axle... then you use impact tools or a big breaker bar and a cheater pipe. :) Paul Bob Mock wrote: > So i replaced the upper and lower ball joints on both sides of the front > axle. It went pretty well. I had a hard time getting the drivers side hub > out and couldn't even get the hub nut off. Broke a large breaker bar and > socket wrench. Heated it, and everything. Then realized that i could > leave the shaft attached to the hub and just pull it out as one piece to > get the knuckle off. But anyway, come spring time or early summer i'm going > to have to get that hub off to replace that u-joint or maybe even that > hub. (starting to show it's wear) > > anyway..... if anyone has any tips to getting this off I'd greatly be > appreciated. > > Bob Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:20:18 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: fwd: looking for wagoneers - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jaxy1185-at-aol.com I was wondering if you knew of any wagoneers that are for sale or will be and had pictures and prices for them. If you do, e-mail me back. Thanks:) Jackie Lancaster email: Jaxy1185-at-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:43:53 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach From: "Paul W." > But he has a 4 popper... the tach from a 6 won't read right on a 4! > _MOST_ 2.5L's are low trim levels, so the likelihood of finding a 4-cyl tach is > slimmer. Though the 2.5L was available in the XJ Wagoneer in the early years, > so it may not be impossible to find a 4-cyl gauge package, just a lot less > likely. That's why the suggestion was made to go aftermarket. Ooof. Good point. Crap. Okay, aftermarket it is. :/ Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:38:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: xj: Torque Corrections (long) Here's what Boeing says about torque wrench adapters & extensions - this is pretty much "industry standard proceedure" in any industry that torques fasteners... :) >From Boeing Spec. BAC5009 BOLT AND NUT INSTALLATION, sec 8.1.6: A. The use of adapters shall be limited to those applications where it is impossible to apply the torque wrench directly. Handle extensions shall be used on dial indicating (rigid frame) torque wrenches only. B. When extensions or adapters are used, the required torque shall be the center of the torque range specified (except as noted blah, blah blah) as applicable. In all cases, the length of the torque wrench and handle extension if used, shall be greater than the adapter length. C. The force shall be applied to the torque wrench handle perpendicular to the handle and its plane of rotation. D. Factor C is the correction factor for converting the required torque to the torque wrench indicator reading needed. To determine the torque wrench indicator reading needed, multiply the required torque by the Correction Factor C shown below. E. Torque Wrench Correction Factors and Definition of Symbols Lw = Length of the torque wrench, in other words, the distance from the drive square on the wrench to the center of the handle grip where the force is applied. La = Effective length of the adapter, in other words, the length of the adapter measured along the centerline of the wrench. Le = Length of the handle extension, in other words, the distance from the center of the wrench handle grip to the center of the extension handle grip where the force is applied. C = Torque wrench correction factor: multiply the required torque by this factor to obtain the torque wrench indicator reading needed. F. (Is a bunch of figures that don't e-mail - and I'm not gonna try to ascii-art them all, so I'll use text to get the idea across.) (1) Using attachements such as sockets, universal joints, Phillips, Allen, Torque-Set, Hi-Torque drivers ('normal') - No correction required. Torque wrench indicator reading equals required torque. (2) Using handle extension only. No correction required. (3) Using an adapter, such as a Crowfoot, in-line with the wrench. Correction required. (If multiple adapters are used, add total adapter(s) effective in-line length for La) C = Lw/(Lw+La) (4) Using an adapter and a handle extension. Correction required. C = (Lw+Le)/(Lw+La+Le) (5) Using an adapter at a right angle (90 degrees) to the wrench. No correction required. (6) Using an adapter at an angle other than 90 degrees or in-line. Correction required. Measure the effective in-line-with-the-torque- wrench length for the "La" (the picture would really help here :) C = Lw/(Lw+La) G. The use of universal joints is prohibited for use in applying fastener installation torque, except when a torque metering/data acquisition system at the output socket is used. The use of universal joints for holding the non-rotating component is acceptable. H. The use of square drive extensions shall be limited to those applications where it is impossible to apply the torque wrench directly. The required torque shall be the maximum of the torque range specified. The use of a torque metering/data acquisition system at the output socket is recommended. (Like we would have something like that in our Jeep's tool box ;) No correction factor is required. Hope some of you found this helpful. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to copy & paste all that, I had to copy it... and I'm NOT a fast typist :) Paul (Hey Bill, can't you just borrow a bigger torque wrench from work?) Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:38:40 -0700 From: "Aaron Storms" Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach I've done this very thing myself on my 87 with a gauge cluster unit from an 88, but be careful in switching between years as they're not all interchangeable and sometimes you end up breaking a bracket back there for the speedo or something if you're not careful. Mine works fine, but the sending units read differently than my old gauge units did. Aaron Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike G To: Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach > Just go to a junk yard and find one with the guages. I've > seen em before, just sitting there. Thought you need the > senders or somthing, and it has to be a certain year. There > is a guy on the "other list", that knows all about it. > > Robert Glover wrote: > > > > From: "Paul W." > > > > > And if you want more gauges, check into those gauge pods that mount on top > > of > > > the dash or on the A-pillar. > > > > I just want a tach in the spot where it belongs. I was going to redo the > > whole cluster using VDO (or some other brand) guages, but there isn't room > > for a 5" tach, a 5" speedo, and four 2" other guages. It appears (from a > > glance) that the stock guages are 4" and 1.5" or 1.75". > > > > Rob > > -- > Mike Gagos > mike-g-at-mike-g.net > http://www.mike-g.net/ > ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:39:55 -0700 From: "Aaron Storms" Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach Yep, mine was from a 6cyl to another 6cyl, not to a 4cyl. Good point, Aaron Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul W. To: Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:52 PM Subject: Re: xj: Wanted: Guage cluster w/tach > But he has a 4 popper... the tach from a 6 won't read right on a 4! > _MOST_ 2.5L's are low trim levels, so the likelihood of finding a 4-cyl tach is > slimmer. Though the 2.5L was available in the XJ Wagoneer in the early years, > so it may not be impossible to find a 4-cyl gauge package, just a lot less > likely. That's why the suggestion was made to go aftermarket. > > Paul > > > --- Mike G wrote: > > Just go to a junk yard and find one with the guages. I've > > seen em before, just sitting there. Thought you need the > > senders or somthing, and it has to be a certain year. There > > is a guy on the "other list", that knows all about it. > > > > Robert Glover wrote: > > > > > > From: "Paul W." > > > > > > > And if you want more gauges, check into those gauge pods that mount on > > > > top of the dash or on the A-pillar. > > > > > > I just want a tach in the spot where it belongs. I was going to redo the > > > whole cluster using VDO (or some other brand) guages, but there isn't room > > > for a 5" tach, a 5" speedo, and four 2" other guages. It appears (from a > > > glance) that the stock guages are 4" and 1.5" or 1.75". > > > > > > Rob > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1041 *************************