From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 3 18:17:59 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Wednesday, January 3 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1042 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: Re: fwd: looking for wagoneers Re: xj: Torque Corrections (long) xj: XJ help needed in Provo, UT Fwd: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L xj: Re: xj-digest V1 #1041 Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L xj: they may look alike... but parts ain't parts... :) xj: Japanese Jeep xj: John and his wish for a new motor Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L xj: 4 cylinders in XJ's xj: Re: question ? on 86 wagoneer Re: xj: Japanese Jeep Re: xj: Torque Corrections xj: 4 cyl tach from other Jeeps Re: Fwd: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:41:33 -0700 From: "Aaron Storms" Subject: xj: Re: fwd: looking for wagoneers Where are you located? There's tons of them in the Denver area from free (you haul away) to cherry and pricey. However, I noticed on my trips to Houston and Montana and the states in-between that all jeeps are a LOT scarcer. Aaron Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: john To: full size jeep list Cc: Rj's FSJ list <1FSJ-at-egroups.com>; xj-list Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:20 PM Subject: xj: fwd: looking for wagoneers > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jaxy1185-at-aol.com > > I was wondering if you knew of any wagoneers that are for sale or will be > and had pictures and prices for them. If you do, e-mail me back. > Thanks:) > Jackie Lancaster > > email: Jaxy1185-at-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:35:29 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections (long) Paul. Wow ! Thanks a lot- that's some terrific info from folks that would really know ! I appreciate your typing. And I think you're right - there ought to be the odd fastener on a helo torqued above 150! I'll borrow the proper tool ! (Borrowing / renting tools just feels wrong! Maybe I need to BUY a new one....yea, yea, that's it) "Paul W." wrote: > Here's what Boeing says about torque wrench adapters & extensions - this is > pretty much "industry standard proceedure" in any industry that torques > fasteners... :) > > >From Boeing Spec. BAC5009 BOLT AND NUT INSTALLATION, sec 8.1.6: > > A. The use of adapters shall be limited to those applications where it is > impossible to apply the torque wrench directly. Handle extensions shall be used > on dial indicating (rigid frame) torque wrenches only. > > B. When extensions or adapters are used, the required torque shall be the > center of the torque range specified (except as noted blah, blah blah) as > applicable. In all cases, the length of the torque wrench and handle extension > if used, shall be greater than the adapter length. > > C. The force shall be applied to the torque wrench handle perpendicular to the > handle and its plane of rotation. > > D. Factor C is the correction factor for converting the required torque to the > torque wrench indicator reading needed. To determine the torque wrench > indicator reading needed, multiply the required torque by the Correction Factor > C shown below. > > E. Torque Wrench Correction Factors and Definition of Symbols > > Lw = Length of the torque wrench, in other words, the distance from > the drive square on the wrench to the center of the handle grip where > the force is applied. > > La = Effective length of the adapter, in other words, the length of > the adapter measured along the centerline of the wrench. > > Le = Length of the handle extension, in other words, the distance > from the center of the wrench handle grip to the center of the > extension handle grip where the force is applied. > > C = Torque wrench correction factor: multiply the required torque by > this factor to obtain the torque wrench indicator reading needed. > > F. (Is a bunch of figures that don't e-mail - and I'm not gonna try to > ascii-art them all, so I'll use text to get the idea across.) > > (1) Using attachements such as sockets, universal joints, Phillips, > Allen, Torque-Set, Hi-Torque drivers ('normal') - No correction required. > Torque wrench indicator reading equals required torque. > > (2) Using handle extension only. No correction required. > > (3) Using an adapter, such as a Crowfoot, in-line with the wrench. > Correction required. (If multiple adapters are used, add total adapter(s) > effective in-line length for La) > C = Lw/(Lw+La) > > (4) Using an adapter and a handle extension. Correction required. > C = (Lw+Le)/(Lw+La+Le) > > (5) Using an adapter at a right angle (90 degrees) to the wrench. > No correction required. > > (6) Using an adapter at an angle other than 90 degrees or in-line. > Correction required. Measure the effective in-line-with-the-torque- > wrench length for the "La" (the picture would really help here :) > C = Lw/(Lw+La) > > G. The use of universal joints is prohibited for use in applying fastener > installation torque, except when a torque metering/data acquisition system at > the output socket is used. The use of universal joints for holding the > non-rotating component is acceptable. > > H. The use of square drive extensions shall be limited to those applications > where it is impossible to apply the torque wrench directly. The required torque > shall be the maximum of the torque range specified. The use of a torque > metering/data acquisition system at the output socket is recommended. (Like we > would have something like that in our Jeep's tool box ;) > No correction factor is required. > > Hope some of you found this helpful. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to copy > & paste all that, I had to copy it... and I'm NOT a fast typist :) > > Paul > (Hey Bill, can't you just borrow a bigger torque wrench from work?) > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:52:58 -0600 From: Scott Rozman Subject: xj: XJ help needed in Provo, UT Bart and/or others in the SLC area.... This came through on another list.  Perhaps someone can help him find a tranny. It looks like he is stuck in Provo, but I think he is from southern CA. Scott - --------- Help! The 5 speed trans went out in my XJ! Anyone have an AX15 I can make a deal on? If I could make payments or something I'd be grateful- I'm short on cash and looking for work Don creepyjeep-at-hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:56:49 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Fwd: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L A: I stand corrected. I wrote to one of the guys that has a GM 2.5L in his, and it appears to have been switched out from a 2.8L. Mea Culpa! From: FARNA-at-worldnet.att.net (Frank Swygert) As far as I know only the AMC 2.5L came in the XJ. AMC even stopped putting the GM 2.5L in the Eagles in 84. IF AMc had any leftover GM 2.5L engines I'd think they would have used them up in Eagles before the Jeep, or kept as service replacements. A lot of people confuse the AMC and GM 2.5L because AMC did use them earlier. Only postal Jeeps, CJs, Eagles, Concords, and Spirits got the GM 2.5L and only from 80-83. Heck, most people think AMC never made their own engines anyway! 79 four cylinder cars got the little 2.0L Audi four that was assembled by AMC. As far as I can determine all the main parts (crank, block, head, rods) were made in Germany and shipped over for final assembly. AMC had a special engine plant just to build these engines -- they may have cast the big parts, but I don't think so. That plant is now owned by Deutz. The 2.0 was never used in Jeeps, they were marginal for the Gremlin and Spirit! AMC had hoped to make a smaller, lighter car and would need that engine, but didn't have the money. That's why they went in business with Renault... but that's another, longer story! - -- Frank Swygert -- Gulfport, MS Publisher, "American Independent Magazine" (AIM) Supporting all AMC related vehicles, 1902-1987 Main site: http://home.att.net/~farna alternate: http://www.javelinamx.com/AIM ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: xj: Re: xj-digest V1 #1041 A: What about one from a Comanche? The 4 cyl 2wd seems to have them in the higher trim levels in at least one '86 that I looked at in the wrecking yard down the hill from me (too lazy to put one in mine, but I'm selling my '86 anyway, because I'm moving to a suite as soon as my house sells and I'll have room for only 2 vehicles till my J10 is finished) What about a TJ tach? From: "Robert Glover" From: "Paul W." But he has a 4 popper... the tach from a 6 won't read right on a 4! _MOST_ 2.5L's are low trim levels, so the likelihood of finding a 4-cyl tach is slimmer. Though the 2.5L was available in the XJ Wagoneer in the early years, so it may not be impossible to find a 4-cyl gauge package, just a lot less likely. That's why the suggestion was made to go aftermarket. Ooof. Good point. Crap. Okay, aftermarket it is. :/ Rob ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:20:44 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L OHH, he's got an oooold POS, rotfl, sorry. I had a 4 banger before my 6, it's a great engine, but no power. Good luck. Paul W. wrote: > > Mike G wrote: > > Uhh, bigger carb? The 2.5L 4 banger is fuel injected, you > > won't find a carburetor. The 2.8L V6 has carb though. > > 84-85 XJ 2.5L's are carb'd... in the CJ it stayed carb'd thru 86. > > > Paul > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:31:16 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: they may look alike... but parts ain't parts... :) On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, James Blair wrote: >-->A: The trans info I got is from the ATSG (Automatic Transmission Service >-->Group) rebuilders manual, which is a reprint of the Chryco repair >-->manual, word for word, and includes TSB bulletins. Plus from many tranny >-->rebuilders on the AMC-list. but the Chrysler repair manual would not apply to the systems used by AMC/Jeep. We've also found out that "opinions" vary among rebuilders. We did find that when a 727 used on a GW is in park it dribbles, when placed in any other gear it squirts. That goes along with my experience and yours, but differs from the "experts". We can't transfer information back and forth btwn Chrysler and Jeep. You're dealing with a special subset of information. Those expert rebuilders may not be aware of how the lock up was modified for Jeep... who knows... It's very confusing when we generalize information like this. Believe me, parts are not that interchangeable between makes. Jeep only contracted with Chrysler for certain parts. We have to put blinders on and focus on what we're dealing with. Yeah, sure the parts look alike, and might even transfer over in some cases, but we're really gonna screw someone up real bad passing info like that. We're not dealing with an apple to apple subject. We be mixin' fruits... I've tried to make stuff work from one make to another, even when using the same basic supplier. Same thing is true with computers. I've used all kinds of parts on my old Jeeps before... it's a hack job is what it is though... :) If you don't have the Jeep manuals, don't share info from other makes, it only further confuses and complicates things. If you know for absolute certainty that this part will work over there, and have tested it then ok. I seem to recall a few times you said such and such a part from an Eagle or a Chrysler will work, we get together and by golly it won't work... imagine that... :) xj to eagle or eagle to sj... seems that little crosses over. :) We really need to be careful what information we disseminate as we're both active on the list and do a lot of technical stuff... someone with less experience might listen to some of this info and cost 'em a bunch of money or leave 'em stranded... We need to verify information carefully within the limitations of what AMC/Jeep did. I'd say forget Eagles... and Chryslers and Dodges... Do you realize that the only parts that interchanged between my 1981 Wagoneer Limited and my 1988 Wagoneer Limited were the u-joints for the driveshafts! That's it. Nothing else comes to mind as working between the SJ and the XJ models with the same name. So how in the world can you expect an Eagle and a Chrysler and a Dodge and a Puegot and a Rambler and a Jeep to interchange???? :) wish things were simpler... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:22:41 -0600 From: "Randolph A Bennell" Subject: xj: Japanese Jeep I finally bought a 4X4 but I could not bring myself to acquire a Jeep. I liked the look of the Cherokees but they were too small. I don't like the look or the cost of the Grand Cherokee quite as well. I started looking at other similar vehicles and reading material. I tried and quite liked a Nissan Pathfinder. I tried and quite liked the Honda CRV but wanted a true 4X4. I ended up buying a 1995 Toyota 4Runner - SR5 - 3.0 V6 with a 5 speed - has most of the usual options with the exception of a/c which I will miss and may have to add in due course. I don't have it yet - probably Friday by the time the dealer gets it ready so can't say much more about it. So in any event, I trust you won't mind if I continue to lurk around here as I find a lot of the posts interesting and I even have some opinions on the non specific stuff. Randy in Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:22:34 -0600 From: "Randolph A Bennell" Subject: xj: John and his wish for a new motor I know I am slow in picking up on this thread but I have been busy. I have read all of the digests but have not taken time to respond. MY OPINION for what it is worth, which may not be much, is that John should either repair/rebuild the existing engine in the truck and carry on with his plans for the after market fuel injection or swap in a MB diesel engine. My reasons are basically that swaps are difficult to do and difficult to do well. They often leave the vehicle unmarketable because no body wants a misfit. It becomes a personal statement but not much else and often not worth the effort or cost. People like to see stock when they buy a vehicle because it improves their odds of getting parts and repairs. Therefore, I would stick with something close to original but somewhat improved (I love to improve things including cars, trucks, etc). The other alternative if John is determined to make a major investment in time and money to change his truck would be to do something that will make it much better. If this is the case, then I suggest the MB diesel conversion. John has quite a bit of experience with the diesel and it would make for a good truck. The diesel has good torque so it should be ok for a 4 wheel drive rock crawler. It should be much more efficient than any gasoline engine and therefore be less expensive to run in the long term. We all know that fuel will not get any cheaper. Despite the fact that Detroit has been producing bigger and better truck motors in recent years, I suggest the trend is going to change due to the cost of operation. Big Fords and Dodges with V10's are interesting but not practical unless you need to tow something massive. Right now, I would prefer to have a diesel rather than a big V under the hood. This is getting tooooo long so I will quit. Randy in Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:29:29 EST From: S1120-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L In a message dated 01/02/2001 1:03:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, john-at-virtual-cafe.com writes: << he 2.5L found in the xj is an AMC design, and excellent motor that will easily run 200,000 miles without major work >> My 86 has 207k on it, and is still running strong. <> Only from mid year '86 on up. Mine is FI. Paul Bradway 86 Cherokee 70 Mustang 72 LTD convertible ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:53:38 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: 4 cylinders in XJ's > Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:42:14 -0800 (PST) > From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) > Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L > > A: Only '84 XJs came with the Iron Puke 2.5L motor (as well as many CJ & > Postal Jeeps, but that's another lot of creatures) The xj models were introduced with the all new 2.5L motor. Every article I read, every model I looked at when they came out had the AMC newly designed 2.5L I-4. It was carb'd until mid-86 when they went to a TBI unit. I don't know nothin' about bobtails or postal units, but I do know XJs. If you've seen an xj with a GM 2.5L engine it's because someone was an idiot and swapped it in. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:58:14 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: Re: question ? on 86 wagoneer On Wed, 3 Jan 2001 Handym1-at-aol.com wrote: >--> Hi John my name is Tony I wanted to see if you could help me, I recently >-->bought a 86 wagoneer limited with a 2.8 engine. The engine was tore down and >-->needed rebuit, I rebuilt it and have it back in but I cannot figuire out how >-->to put all the brackets for the alternator ,power steering, ac pump and smog >-->pump on. I have been at the local Chrysler dealership and all the local >-->autostores to try to find a manual showing this. Would you have a diagram >-->of this that could be scanned in or faxed or possibly know of a manual that >-->would. thanks Tony email at Handym1-at-aol.com try the chevy dealer... it's a chevy 2.8L V6 and they might have diagrams that will help... no guarantee since it's in a jeep... :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:17:35 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Japanese Jeep It's perfectly OK with this ex toyota owner Bill Randolph A Bennell wrote: > I finally bought a 4X4 but I could not bring myself to acquire a Jeep. I > liked the look of the Cherokees but they were too small. I don't like the > look or the cost of the Grand Cherokee quite as well. I started looking at > other similar vehicles and reading material. I tried and quite liked a > Nissan Pathfinder. I tried and quite liked the Honda CRV but wanted a true > 4X4. I ended up buying a 1995 Toyota 4Runner - SR5 - 3.0 V6 with a 5 speed - > has most of the usual options with the exception of a/c which I will miss > and may have to add in due course. I don't have it yet - probably Friday by > the time the dealer gets it ready so can't say much more about it. So in > any event, I trust you won't mind if I continue to lurk around here as I > find a lot of the posts interesting and I even have some opinions on the non > specific stuff. > > Randy in Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:27:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections No problem, glad you can use it! I think the Jesus Nut is held on above 150 ft lbs :) When I was in the military, we had base auto hobby shops where we could work on our cars (since working on them in the barracks or base housing parking was frowned on). These usually had a pretty good stock of basic special tools like torque wrenches, pullers and the like... do you have anything like that in the CAF? Paul samfans wrote: > Wow! Thanks a lot- that's some terrific info from folks that would really > know! I appreciate your typing. > > And I think you're right - there ought to be the odd fastener on a helo > torqued above 150! I'll borrow the proper tool ! > > (Borrowing / renting tools just feels wrong! Maybe I need to BUY a new > one....yea, yea, that's it) Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:32:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: xj: 4 cyl tach from other Jeeps A 4 cyl MJ unit would naturally work, since they are the same (year for year), I didn't think of that since most of the MJ's I've seen are in lower trim levels than the average XJ - and most of the ones I've run across are 6's. :) I think the wiring and dash design of the TJ would prevent easy use in the XJ. Paul James Blair wrote: > A: What about one from a Comanche? The 4 cyl 2wd seems to have them in > the higher trim levels in at least one '86 that I looked at in the > wrecking yard down the hill from me (too lazy to put one in mine, but > I'm selling my '86 anyway, because I'm moving to a suite as soon as my > house sells and I'll have room for only 2 vehicles till my J10 is > finished) > What about a TJ tach? > > From: "Robert Glover" > From: "Paul W." > But he has a 4 popper... the tach from a 6 won't read right on a 4! > _MOST_ 2.5L's are low trim levels, so the likelihood of finding a 4-cyl > tach is slimmer. Though the 2.5L was available in the XJ Wagoneer in the > early years, so it may not be impossible to find a 4-cyl gauge package, > just a lot less likely. That's why the suggestion was made to go > aftermarket. > Ooof. Good point. Crap. Okay, aftermarket it is. :/ > Rob > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:38:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L One small correction Frank, the Audi motor was used in Jeeps, but just Postals. I have an '81 Postal Jeep that had the Audi motor in it. (Well, all that's left is a frame now :) Paul - --- James Blair wrote: > A: I stand corrected. I wrote to one of the guys that has a GM 2.5L in > his, and it appears to have been switched out from a 2.8L. Mea Culpa! > > From: FARNA-at-worldnet.att.net (Frank Swygert) > As far as I know only the AMC 2.5L came in the XJ. AMC even stopped > putting the GM 2.5L in the Eagles in 84. IF AMc had any leftover GM 2.5L > engines I'd think they would have used them up in Eagles before the > Jeep, or kept as service replacements. A lot of people confuse the AMC > and GM 2.5L because AMC did use them earlier. Only postal Jeeps, CJs, > Eagles, Concords, and Spirits got the GM 2.5L and only from 80-83. Heck, > most people think AMC never made their own engines anyway! > 79 four cylinder cars got the little 2.0L Audi four that was assembled > by AMC. As far as I can determine all the main parts (crank, block, > head, rods) were made in Germany and shipped over for final assembly. > AMC had a special engine plant just to build these engines -- they may > have cast the big parts, but I don't think so. That plant is now owned > by Deutz. The 2.0 was never used in Jeeps, they were marginal for the > Gremlin and Spirit! AMC had hoped to make a smaller, lighter car and > would need that engine, but didn't have the money. That's why they went > in business with Renault... but that's another, longer story! > -- > Frank Swygert -- Gulfport, MS > Publisher, "American Independent Magazine" (AIM) Supporting all AMC > related vehicles, 1902-1987 Main site: http://home.att.net/~farna > alternate: http://www.javelinamx.com/AIM > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1042 *************************