From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jan 4 11:16:20 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Thursday, January 4 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1043 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: Japanese Jeep Wannabe xj: swaps xj: TeraFlex's Grand Up kit Re: xj: TeraFlex's Grand Up kit xj: oil drains Re: xj: TeraFlex's Grand Up kit xj: Re: tools, shift kit xj: Re: fsj: Re: tools, shift kit xj: San Diego Off-Road Expo This weekend! Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L Re: xj: Torque Corrections Re: xj: Torque Corrections Re: xj: Torque Corrections Re: xj: Torque Corrections xj: how to get hub nut off Re: xj: how to get hub nut off Re: xj: Torque Corrections XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:01:30 EST From: ChutetheMall-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: Japanese Jeep Wannabe In a message dated 1/3/01 8:18:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, samfans-at-sprint.ca writes: > It's perfectly OK with this ex toyota owner > > Bill > > Randolph A Bennell wrote: > > > I finally bought a 4X4 but I could not bring myself to acquire a Jeep. . I ended up buying a 1995 Toyota 4Runner - SR5 - 3.0 V6 with a 5 speed So in any event, I trust you won't mind if I continue to lurk around here as I find a lot of the posts interesting and I even have some opinions on the > non specific stuff. > > > > Randy in Winnipeg That's OK Randy, most churches welcome sinners and offer the opportunity to repent their sins. If I got stuck, I would welcome help from a Toyota! Next summer you might regret the lack of factory a/c! ...ChuteTheMallGawdSortaMount,,,,,,,,, ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: swaps Randy from winnipeg made a comment about swaps and resale. In an XJ I agree. But in an older model rig that is orphaned, like the FSJ's, then swapping in an upgraded driveline, if done properly, will actually enhance it's value, to a point... at some point collectors will look for original... we're not at that point yet... I plan on keeping the J10 so I want it to be modern. The Diesel idea is a good one, but I'm just not comfortable with propelling 2 tons of FSJ with a Diesel that is designed to push a luxury sedan around... I'm sure it'd work, but that and the emission hassles negate it... sorry to hear you decided to leave the Jeep fold... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:15:11 -0700 From: "Josh Ingram" Subject: xj: TeraFlex's Grand Up kit Hello, Has anyone heard anything of substance about the Grand Up kit from TeraFlex? I'm considering this modification and would like to hear pros and cons. Their web site has only very limited information and is obviously only going to list benefits. I realize the kit has only been out for a month, but with a group this size, who knows? For those who do not already know, the Grand Up kit replaces the rear leaf springs with coils. It provides two upper and two lower control arms and the net effect is similar (but by no means identical) to a ZJ/WJ/TJ. What little info TF does provide is actually on their main/home page. http://www.teraflx.com BTW: it goes by product number S6X. There is a picutre of the installed kit and a little more information here: http://www.trailquest.com/teraflex/s6x.shtml jingram '89 & '01 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:27:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: TeraFlex's Grand Up kit I don't know how different it is from the prototype kit they had in Moab for Easter Jeep Safari in '99, but I was on a run with a bunch of vendors and magazine folks that year and the XJ sporting the prototype was on the run with us - along with several other Cherokees from ORGS (I think all the XJ owners were pals - they were ALWAYS together, even when not in their rigs). Frankly, I was not impressed with any of them. There's all this hype about how ORGS builds the "best" lift by picking from several mfrs'... then charging a premium price to collect these parts for you... I didn't think they did a great job... I think it is about the same as any of several good outfits out there... I digress... the ORGS XJ's had more rear flex than the Grand-Up XJ. (I also noticed by checking the link they don't offer a kit for D44 equipped XJ's yet... that's bad IMHO, when you're offering a 6" lift, you're catering to the harder core crowd, you better be offering a D44 kit and at least considering a D60 one too). Paul my $0.02 - --- Josh Ingram wrote: > Hello, > > Has anyone heard anything of substance about the Grand Up kit from TeraFlex? > I'm considering this modification and would like to hear pros and cons. > Their web site has only very limited information and is obviously only going > to list benefits. I realize the kit has only been out for a month, but with > a group this size, who knows? For those who do not already know, the Grand > Up kit replaces the rear leaf springs with coils. It provides two upper and > two lower control arms and the net effect is similar (but by no means > identical) to a ZJ/WJ/TJ. What little info TF does provide is actually on > their main/home page. http://www.teraflx.com BTW: it goes by product > number S6X. There is a picutre of the installed kit and a little more > information here: http://www.trailquest.com/teraflex/s6x.shtml > > jingram > '89 & '01 Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 20:22:12 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: oil drains >paraffin-based oil. Some of the synthetics claim longevity to more than 10K >miles, but I would be wary of this with an older engine...especially one >that is used in environments that an FSJ will most likely see. Even if an >oil could last this long without losing viscosity, the oil filter will >eventually become clogged with all sorts of various crap that can rerduce >the effectiveness of the lubrication system. This doesn't even account for >the chemical changes that an oil undergoes during its lifetime. An engine, >by its very nature, is a big chemical reaction vessel and it creates some all this is true. that's why amsoil, with their 25,000 mile oil change for gas engines, says to change the oil filter at 6 months or 12,500 miles, or more often under severe conditions. they used to claim 15,000 miles for Diesels, but in both cases encourage oil analysis. personally I've never run my oil that long. :) I've tried, but something goes amok and I have to change it. I'd say it's a safe bet for normal driving that allows the oil to get fully up to temperature and all that, to go about 1/2 what they claim, or maybe 12,000 miles... I'm more comfortable with 7 or 8 thousand on my gas engines and about 4,000 on my Diesels. If I ever get a new rebuilt engine or a new vehicle, after I break it in properly I might try to go the distance, using oil analysis of course. :) I think the biggest benefit, in my mind, is knowing that the oil in the crankcase COULD go 25,000 miles, so when I change it at 5 or 6 or even 8,000 miles I'm reasonably confident that I haven't done a bad thing, especially if I've remembered to change the filters... ;) so for me and my house, amsoil synthetic with it's extended drain capability gives me a margin of safety due to my forgetfulness/busyness/neglect... :) as always, YMMV. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:40:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: TeraFlex's Grand Up kit "Paul W." wrote: > I also noticed by checking the link they don't offer a kit for D44 equipped > XJ's yet... that's bad IMHO, when you're offering a 6" lift, you're catering > to the harder core crowd, you better be offering a D44 kit and at least > considering a D60 one too). I also don't like the idea of the upper link mount being incorporated in the diff cover's bolts. This means anytime you pop the cover off the axle, you're disconnecting the upper suspension links. Not the greatest engineering, IMHO. Paul Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:29:48 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: Re: tools, shift kit At 11:46 PM 1/3/01 -0700, Aaron Storms wrote: >OK - just sealant or a gasket too? Aaron I can't remember... I think there is a paper gasket that goes between the tranny and the xfr case... but nothing between the engine and the trans bellhousing. john >Aaron Storms >Black Hawk, CO >aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: john >To: Aaron Storms >Cc: >Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:47 AM >Subject: Re: tools, shift kit > > > > At 12:49 AM 1/3/01 -0700, Aaron Storms wrote: > > > > >how's that for optimism! Now that the tranny is done and ready to mate to > > >the adapter ring and then to the 360, do I need to use any of that black >RTV > > >sealant between them, or just bolt them up? Thanks, Aaron > > "Aaron Storms" > > > > I've never used sealant between the tranny and the engine... between > > the tranny and the xfr case, yes. > > > > john > > - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:30:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: xj: Re: fsj: Re: tools, shift kit A: I (and most trans shops and dealers) use silicone sealer at the joint between the trans and xfercase, but nothing between the motor and trans (oil in there is a BAAAD thing! Some gypo auto dealers silicone the plate on to cover up the fact a vehicle has a bad rear main seal!) Also, I make sure the trans output seal is in good condition by replacing it, and make sure that the output bearing is in good shape (after what happened with the one in my '86 Dodge van 998 turning into a one way clutch!) From: john-at-virtual-cafe.com (john) At 11:46 PM 1/3/01 -0700, Aaron Storms wrote: OK - just sealant or a gasket too? Aaron I can't remember... I think there is a paper gasket that goes between the tranny and the xfr case... but nothing between the engine and the trans bellhousing. john Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: john To: Aaron Storms Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:47 AM Subject: Re: tools, shift kit At 12:49 AM 1/3/01 -0700, Aaron Storms wrote: how's that for optimism! Now that the tranny is done and ready to mate to the adapter ring and then to the 360, do I need to use any of that black RTV sealant between them, or just bolt them up? Thanks, Aaron "Aaron Storms" I've never used sealant between the tranny and the engine... between the tranny and the xfr case, yes. john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:32:51 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: xj: San Diego Off-Road Expo This weekend! Wow, SDOR Expo creeped up on me. Anyone going? I'll be with the crew on Sat morning! ;) Not sure were I'll be, I may be running the courses, or at the waiver booth or somthing. Info: http://home.earthlink.net/~sdoffroadexposition/ - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:40:21 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: the xj's 2.5L LOL, I got it, I got it! Yeah, my 88 2.5L I had (well I still have it, the engine, anyhow, it's just not a vehicle you can drive anyhow, longstory, if you know me, you know, or have been to my site) the fuel injection. S1120-at-aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 01/02/2001 1:03:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > john-at-virtual-cafe.com writes: > > << he 2.5L found in > the xj is an AMC design, and excellent motor that will easily run > 200,000 miles without major work >> > My 86 has 207k on it, and is still running strong. > > < won't find a >> > > Only from mid year '86 on up. Mine is FI. > > Paul Bradway > 86 Cherokee > 70 Mustang > 72 LTD convertible - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:41:43 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections Hmm, I wonder if CIV's would be frowned upon if I just went up to the base's gate and asked them if I could use their auto hobby shop? Paul W. wrote: > > No problem, glad you can use it! > > I think the Jesus Nut is held on above 150 ft lbs :) > > When I was in the military, we had base auto hobby shops where we could work on > our cars (since working on them in the barracks or base housing parking was > frowned on). These usually had a pretty good stock of basic special tools like > torque wrenches, pullers and the like... do you have anything like that in the > CAF? > > Paul > > samfans wrote: > > Wow! Thanks a lot- that's some terrific info from folks that would really > > know! I appreciate your typing. > > > > And I think you're right - there ought to be the odd fastener on a helo > > torqued above 150! I'll borrow the proper tool ! > > > > (Borrowing / renting tools just feels wrong! Maybe I need to BUY a new > > one....yea, yea, that's it) > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:39:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections Unaccompanied, yes, most likely... but if you have a active-duty or retired military friend that will go with you and sign you in, should be no problem. I used to see civies in our auto hobby shops - especially when I was stationed at MCAS Tustin, CA (now defunct, I hear - I heard all the Marines moved out of El Toro & Tustin and moved to Miramar, Camp Pendelton or Yuma. Paul Mike G wrote: > Hmm, I wonder if CIV's would be frowned upon if I just > went up to the base's gate and asked them if I could > use their auto hobby shop? > > Paul W. wrote: > > > > No problem, glad you can use it! > > > > I think the Jesus Nut is held on above 150 ft lbs :) > > > > When I was in the military, we had base auto hobby shops where we could > work on > > our cars (since working on them in the barracks or base housing parking was > > frowned on). These usually had a pretty good stock of basic special tools > like > > torque wrenches, pullers and the like... do you have anything like that in > the > > CAF? > > > > Paul > > > > samfans wrote: > > > Wow! Thanks a lot- that's some terrific info from folks that would > really > > > know! I appreciate your typing. > > > > > > And I think you're right - there ought to be the odd fastener on a helo > > > torqued above 150! I'll borrow the proper tool ! > > > > > > (Borrowing / renting tools just feels wrong! Maybe I need to BUY a new > > > one....yea, yea, that's it) > > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > -- > Mike Gagos > mike-g-at-mike-g.net > http://www.mike-g.net/ > ICQ: 1734225 Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 01:54:13 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections Yes, they would frown on it. You need a military/DOD ID card and attend a safety class, typically. Phil (ex-MP and hobby shop user) - ----Original Message Follows---- From: Mike G Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:41:43 -0800 Hmm, I wonder if CIV's would be frowned upon if I just went up to the base's gate and asked them if I could use their auto hobby shop? Paul W. wrote: > > No problem, glad you can use it! > > I think the Jesus Nut is held on above 150 ft lbs :) > > When I was in the military, we had base auto hobby shops where we could work on > our cars (since working on them in the barracks or base housing parking was > frowned on). These usually had a pretty good stock of basic special tools like > torque wrenches, pullers and the like... do you have anything like that in the > CAF? > > Paul > > samfans wrote: > > Wow! Thanks a lot- that's some terrific info from folks that would really > > know! I appreciate your typing. > > > > And I think you're right - there ought to be the odd fastener on a helo > > torqued above 150! I'll borrow the proper tool ! > > > > (Borrowing / renting tools just feels wrong! Maybe I need to BUY a new > > one....yea, yea, that's it) > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 02:33:26 -0800 From: Mike G Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections yeah, that's what I figured. I'm about 30mins drive from Miramar, and about an hour and a half from Pendelton. Paul W. wrote: > > Unaccompanied, yes, most likely... but if you have a active-duty or retired > military friend that will go with you and sign you in, should be no problem. I > used to see civies in our auto hobby shops - especially when I was stationed at > MCAS Tustin, CA (now defunct, I hear - I heard all the Marines moved out of El > Toro & Tustin and moved to Miramar, Camp Pendelton or Yuma. > > Paul > > Mike G wrote: > > Hmm, I wonder if CIV's would be frowned upon if I just > > went up to the base's gate and asked them if I could > > use their auto hobby shop? > > > > Paul W. wrote: > > > > > > No problem, glad you can use it! > > > > > > I think the Jesus Nut is held on above 150 ft lbs :) > > > > > > When I was in the military, we had base auto hobby shops where we could > > work on > > > our cars (since working on them in the barracks or base housing parking was > > > frowned on). These usually had a pretty good stock of basic special tools > > like > > > torque wrenches, pullers and the like... do you have anything like that in > > the > > > CAF? > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > samfans wrote: > > > > Wow! Thanks a lot- that's some terrific info from folks that would > > really > > > > know! I appreciate your typing. > > > > > > > > And I think you're right - there ought to be the odd fastener on a helo > > > > torqued above 150! I'll borrow the proper tool ! > > > > > > > > (Borrowing / renting tools just feels wrong! Maybe I need to BUY a new > > > > one....yea, yea, that's it) > > > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > -- > > Mike Gagos > > mike-g-at-mike-g.net > > http://www.mike-g.net/ > > ICQ: 1734225 > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ - -- Mike Gagos mike-g-at-mike-g.net http://www.mike-g.net/ ICQ: 1734225 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:36:47 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: xj: how to get hub nut off At 03:19 AM 1/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Bob, you can change the U-joint without removing the stub axle from the hub. >(BTDT-on the 'Con :) You only _have_ to remove it when replacing just the hub >or just the stub axle... then you use impact tools or a big breaker bar and a >cheater pipe. :) I found an easy way to loosen even the most stubborn hub nuts w/o power tools. It was kind of by necessity, actually, when I was replacing the boot on my '69 Toronado (which has a 1.5" hub nut; and this one hadn't been removed since it was installed 30-years earlier). W/O air-tools, I thought I was up a creek. What I did was the following: * I locked the axle by putting the tranny in park (for your front-hub, just engage 4wd). * I placed the breaker-bar with the socket on the nut, so the handle was just slightly below horizontal, with all slack taken out of it. * You don't want the truck jacked up high for this part (my Toro is a lowrider from the factory); place the cup of a 2-ton floor jack under the end of the breaker-bar, and begin to jack it up. On my Toro, the whole car actually started to rise before a portion of its 5000lb weight caused the nut to loosen. You'll need a strong breaker-bar for this, though, as you'll potentially have over 1000 ft/lbs of force working on that nut (depending how long your breaker-bar is). Mine was a sliding-bar 3/4" drive Craftsman unit. Just be careful in positioning the jack so that the end of the handle doesn't slip out of the lifting cup. Maybe a helper would be handy (though you're talking about small distances). ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 08:28:11 -0500 From: Bob Mock Subject: Re: xj: how to get hub nut off Yeah, except I broke my rachet and crafstman breaker bar trying to loosen it.....just with arm strength. (well mine and a friends together.) Bob >I found an easy way to loosen even the most stubborn hub nuts w/o power >tools. It was kind of by necessity, actually, when I was replacing the >boot on my '69 Toronado (which has a 1.5" hub nut; and this one hadn't >been removed since it was installed 30-years earlier). W/O air-tools, I >thought I was up a creek. What I did was the following: > >* I locked the axle by putting the tranny in park (for your front-hub, >just engage 4wd). >* I placed the breaker-bar with the socket on the nut, so the handle was >just slightly below horizontal, with all slack taken out of it. >* You don't want the truck jacked up high for this part (my Toro is a >lowrider from the factory); place the cup of a 2-ton floor jack under the >end of the breaker-bar, and begin to jack it up. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:20:19 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Torque Corrections Yep, we sure do have a club, and it's gotten a lot better lately. Used to be just a greasy pit with a bunch of fat unfriendy PO's running illegal pseudo businesses and hogging all the bays and equipment. it's much better now - I go to use the shop press and tire balancer from time to time. They might just have that wrench, but I think I'll try the techs art work first - it's sure to be properly calibrated! BTW - back to what this was all about - I was very interested to read the sections in my 89 FSM (at last - YAHOOO - Thanks Honey!) detailing the D35 and D44 pinion seal replacements. The D35 has the whole measuring pre-load, recording torque to losen, etc. procedure. the D44 section just says take off nut, reinstall new nut, torque to 210 ft/lbs. Simple. I wonder why? Different crush sleeve desugn. I don't know - but i'm happy about it - at least will be when I get the proper wrench. "Paul W." wrote: > No problem, glad you can use it! > > I think the Jesus Nut is held on above 150 ft lbs :) That reminds me of a time when we were craning off at NSRR ( a common Cdn military exercise!) and the crane picks the helo up by the little brace on the head - and one of the fishheads (and an engineer to boot) comes up and asks - are you sure the head can hold the whole weight of the helo ??????? We laughed and laughed and laughed. It won't be obvious to non helo types maybe - but if you think about it for a minute....... Bill ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1043 *************************