From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 24 11:38:08 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Monday, January 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1062 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC Re: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? Re: xj: Being creative Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC Re: xj: Being creative Re: xj: Being creative Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? xj: TBI vs. Weber Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:29:05 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC From: "Paul W." > A lot of people seem to be making comments like that - but if you think about > it from D-C's perspective, why would you go buy a diesel out-of-house when you > own Mercedes/MTU & Detroit, both of which make fine diesels (as does Cummins!). > And Mercedes/MTU is already building a motor in this cless. True, but they still have a contract with Cummins, plus they have the brand loyalty that it brings. I'm HOPING the bean counters at DC realize how many sales they're making BECAUSE of the Cummins name. > Rumors are also floating that the Cummins will continue to be available and the > new engine, which will be more powerful, will be another option. I've heard this too, and wouldn't mind it if they had two diesel options, especially if you could get one in the half-tons (mainly for fuel economy reasons). > WHY is a V8 diesel the "ultimate sin?" In a nutshell, number of parts and number of bearings. On a straight six, you have more bearings than on a V8. Also, big truck diesels are usually pretty long strokes (I think the stroke in mine is around 4.75"), and long-stroke V8's don't do well when you consider the side-to-side pressures being placed on the crankshaft when that much torque is being generated. Additionally, it's always been well-known that straight-six motors make more low-end torque than a V8, relatively speaking. But I think more than anything, it's a durability issue. I have no problem with "ordinary" diesels being of the V-nature (like the V6 we spoke of earlier that may go into the Durango and Grand Cherokee). > So now you can throw a Cat into the fray :^P~ I sincerely hope they don't try to put a Cat in there. I will never own a Cat. Yeah, it's a great motor. BUT, try to work on it. You have to buy like $5000 worth of special Cat tools to work on them. No normal hand tools work. That's why Cat is the most expensive diesel to maintain. BTW, assuming Cummins does stay in the RAMs, I've heard that it will be an all-new third-generation version of the ISB, around 6 liters in size (the new Ford FlowerPoke will also be a 6-liter when it comes out around '03 as well). Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:01:05 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? John - I'll enquire with my friend. He has a Suzuki ..ummm...Viagra is it ? No no, sorry, it's a Grand Vitara - actually a very nice truck - pretty beefy for a mini truck and he wheels with us on mild stuff and has done some impressive stuff with it. It's a nice truck and the one I think i'd get, of the "minis" Bill john wrote: > At 12:00 AM 1/22/01 -0500, Chris wrote: > > I've looked at the stickers on some of the new small-size 4X4s and I'm > >always AMAZED... They're getting like 15 in town and MAYBE 20 on the > >freeway... So, I don't think that a fuel efficient 4X4/transportation > >vehicle exists at the moment... Not in the U.S. anyway. > >Chris > > well, if I get SuperDawg running properly, and then fuel injected, he'll > do that... I'm wondering if a 4.0L in a Cherokee Chief will get the same > mileage as I could with a J10. > > I just don't understand why Jeep or Mercedes doesn't at least offer a > Diesel setup in their line... I mean they sell 'em overseas... what is > it with the US, has California ruined it for us?? > > john > > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:33:18 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Being creative Well, If we're going to play with hydraulics - how about a setup that converts from driven wheels to "walking" claws or feet as required ! Bill "Paul W." wrote: > I was thinking hydraulic motors on each wheel, then there's be no pesky > pumpkins to deal with. > > Paul > > samfans wrote: > > Boooooring !! (well, not really). More variations of a previosly done > > theme. When's someone going to get really creative and design a diesel > > electric setup like on the huge mining equipment. > > > > Bill > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:17:12 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC "Paul W." wrote: > . If it was back in the > Daimler-less days, I'd say Chrysler might just do it, but anymore I wonder what > those Germans are thinking... maybe they've been visiting too many "Coffee > Houses" next door in the Netherlands. ;) > Ahem - I dunno 'bout this mate! The Europeans have been huge diesel folks for decades - have to, with fuel prices what they are. listen, I hate to say it - but it's you Americans that have completely stifled the diesel in NA. Gas has been cheap in the USA for decades (still is) and the American psyche just doesn;t think anything but big v8's are sexy enough. Lets face it - little TD diesels simply won't sell in America - not to the general pulic. Plus, I've noticed Americans can be WAAAAY too emotional about vehicles and "made in the USA" Bravado. Take Phil for example (sorry mate - recent example - not picking on you - I understand your point of view too!). He used the phrase "Pissan". Well I've driven late model Nissan Patrols that are MILES above Jeeps in quality - and The Aussies seem to think they're pretty tough (and there 4x4 can be important for survival - not just cool). I've heard lots of folks recently ranting about the sad death of the great American freedom fighting jeep, blah blah blah because they're upset about what they percieve as the "German" decision to loose the solid axle etc. What they fail to realise is 1) The KJ was on the books BEFORE Daimler thought of buying Chrysler. 2) The Germans don't OWN D-C, a bunch of Swiss-German bankers and the Kuwaities do!! 3) If you tear into your beloved American XJ you find "made in France" and "made in Japan" stamped everywhere!! That's been the traditional thinking anyway - that's led us to where we are. I'd say there's a greater chance of diesel power with the D in D-C. Good Lord - i've ranted ! :-) Sorry, Bill Not meaning to offend - I really understand both sides - hell - I like British cars and bikes - just because that's my heritage - but I drive a japanes bike, a Jeep, a Saturn (best car I ever had!), and a Fiat of all things - go figure! 'Course if I had my way i'd own LOTS of good ol' American Iron like a Scout, MB, and early Bronco. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:46:19 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: Being creative Now I'm thinking of a toy I had as a kid... Was a 4x4 that had claws come out of the wheels when it got into some heavy stuff. Kinda like a locker now that I think about it....instead of locking the diff it turned these nifty claws out. Hehe. Phil - ----Original Message Follows---- From: samfans Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: Being creative Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:33:18 -0400 Well, If we're going to play with hydraulics - how about a setup that converts from driven wheels to "walking" claws or feet as required ! Bill _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:51:09 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Being creative Yea - that's what i'm talking 'bout! Enough of the big tires and axles and tube frames -Booooring. Can you imagine if we turned out some monster transformer thingey !! Bill "Phil M." wrote: > Now I'm thinking of a toy I had as a kid... > > Was a 4x4 that had claws come out of the wheels when it got into some heavy > stuff. Kinda like a locker now that I think about it....instead of locking > the diff it turned these nifty claws out. Hehe. > > Phil > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: samfans > Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net > To: xj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: xj: Being creative > Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:33:18 -0400 > > Well, If we're going to play with hydraulics - how about a setup that > converts from driven wheels to "walking" claws or feet as required ! > > Bill > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:19:54 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? So, do you reckon it's safe to say that the 78-79 Broncos are the toghest trucks ever to come off a showroom floor (in stock shape). I mean - Reverse cut D44, 9", NP205, sweet ! Bill "Paul W." wrote: > Sorry Jim - Ford only runs reverse cut axles up front. The Bronco's got > the rev cut D44 in 1978, when they grew to K5 Blazer size, but the F-100/150 > got them a few years earlier. I'm not sure if the F-250 got them at the same > time as the 1/2T's - but I'm thinking they held off until '78. After '78 > though, all the F-series trucks have reverse cut Dana front ends. I'm not > positive about the Ranger/Bronco II/Exploder's Dana 28 & 35 fronts, but I > _think_ they are also rev cut... but since I've never had a need for any parts > off of these lightweights, I haven't looked at them very closely. > > Paul > > James Blair wrote: > > A: Since only the rear have D44s in XJs, it's safe to say (so far) that > > they run straight rotation. Fords ran reverse D44s in back I think and > > in front (I saw at least one) > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:17:09 -0800 From: Dale Rittenbach Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Nope, sorry Bill I give it to the early 90's Dodge Rams, 70 rear, 60 front, 205, and the Cummins..... If I could fit that drive train in my XJ I would in a heart beat :) - -- Dale Rittenbach www.uidaho.edu/~ritt3642 "Are you the police?" "No ma'am, we're musicians" The Blues Brothers So, do you reckon it's safe to say that the 78-79 Broncos are the toughest trucks ever to come off a showroom floor (in stock shape). I mean - Reverse cut D44, 9", NP205, sweet ! Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:00:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC Robert Glover wrote: > From: "Paul W." > > A lot of people seem to be making comments like that - but if you think > > about it from D-C's perspective, why would you go buy a diesel out-of-house > > when you own Mercedes/MTU & Detroit, both of which make fine diesels (as > > does Cummins!). And Mercedes/MTU is already building a motor in this cless. > > True, but they still have a contract with Cummins, plus they have the brand > loyalty that it brings. I'm HOPING the bean counters at DC realize how many > sales they're making BECAUSE of the Cummins name. Contracts can be bought out, or fulfilled in some other area - DC's Freightliner offers Cummins engines - as well as Cat, Detroit & Mercedes/MTU. I don't think their bean counters will look at Cummins loyalty - just look what they did to Jeep loyalists with the new Liberty by going IFS. (Squeezing in some Jeep content here ;) They say they did it for the ride, but the WJ received rave reviews for it's ride in CAR magazines - outdoing IFS rides from the likes of Toyota/Lexus, Mitsubishi & Acura - so it just goes to show you, you can have solid axles and a nice ride. > > Rumors are also floating that the Cummins will continue to be available > > and the new engine, which will be more powerful, will be another option. > > I've heard this too, and wouldn't mind it if they had two diesel options, > especially if you could get one in the half-tons (mainly for fuel economy > reasons). It's sounding like if Cummins does stay, it will be in the lighter trucks - but still not going down into the Ram 1500. Maybe this means the 2500 gets the Cummins and the 3500 gets something else - or they plan on something to compete with the F-450/550 and maybe even the F600+ size trucks??? > > WHY is a V8 diesel the "ultimate sin?" > > In a nutshell, number of parts and number of bearings. On a straight six, > you have more bearings than on a V8. Also, big truck diesels are usually > pretty long strokes (I think the stroke in mine is around 4.75"), and > long-stroke V8's don't do well when you consider the side-to-side pressures > being placed on the crankshaft when that much torque is being generated. > Additionally, it's always been well-known that straight-six motors make more > low-end torque than a V8, relatively speaking. But I think more than > anything, it's a durability issue. OK, good points, OTOH, I feel most of those issues can be taken care of in a good V design... and a V8 motor CAN have 9 main bearing if you want it to. Your theory doesn't answer why the most powerful diesels built are V's... so I'm still not completely sold on the 'inline six is always better no matter what' that is popular with die hard inline six fans, be they Cummins, Jeep 258/4.0, Ford 300, Chevy 292 etc. I'd like to see someone take this engine design and run with it... http://www.dynacam.com/ Smaller and more compact than any other design of equal displacement, it's initial market will be in kit planes, but they are looking to expand into industrial, marine and truck applications. They are already working on a diesel version for possible military use and have equipped a Hummer with one. Paul Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:55:59 +0800 From: "Salinovich, David (CSC at Alcoa)" Subject: RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? I used too drive a suzuki sierra or samurai they are called in the US. They are very fuel effecient and would certainly go places my 97 XJ wont. I got around 100km's per 10litres of fuel (sorry I dont know what that is in miles per gallon) and in my XJ I get 100km's per 15 litres of fuel. Great little cars, just gutless and tend to die on there roof's as myne did. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: samfans [SMTP:samfans-at-sprint.ca] > Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 6:01 > To: xj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? > > John - I'll enquire with my friend. He has a Suzuki ..ummm...Viagra is it > ? > No no, sorry, it's a Grand Vitara - actually a very nice truck - pretty > beefy > for a mini truck and he wheels with us on mild stuff and has done some > impressive stuff with it. > > It's a nice truck and the one I think i'd get, of the "minis" > > Bill > > john wrote: > > > At 12:00 AM 1/22/01 -0500, Chris wrote: > > > I've looked at the stickers on some of the new small-size 4X4s and > I'm > > >always AMAZED... They're getting like 15 in town and MAYBE 20 on the > > >freeway... So, I don't think that a fuel efficient > 4X4/transportation > > >vehicle exists at the moment... Not in the U.S. anyway. > > >Chris > > > > well, if I get SuperDawg running properly, and then fuel injected, he'll > > do that... I'm wondering if a 4.0L in a Cherokee Chief will get the > same > > mileage as I could with a J10. > > > > I just don't understand why Jeep or Mercedes doesn't at least offer a > > Diesel setup in their line... I mean they sell 'em overseas... what is > > it with the US, has California ruined it for us?? > > > > john > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > > ------------------------------------------------------- Alcoa World Alumina Australia is a trading name of Alcoa of Australia Limited, ACN 004 879 298 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC samfans wrote: > Ahem - I dunno 'bout this mate! The Europeans have been huge diesel folks > for decades - have to, with fuel prices what they are. > listen, I hate to say it - but it's you Americans that have completely > stifled the diesel in NA. Gas has been cheap in the USA for decades (still > is) and the American psyche just doesn;t think anything but big v8's are sexy > enough. Lets face it - little TD diesels simply won't sell in America - not > to the general pulic. But Euro diesels have been on the gutless side - and that's what doesn't sell in America, land of the "get-the-hell-outta-my-way--I'm-late' crowd. :) > Plus, I've noticed Americans can be WAAAAY too emotional about vehicles and > "made in the USA" Bravado. You would too - If there were such thing as a real "Made in Canada" car. (Some other country's design assembled in Canada doesn't count - well, maybe it does... I've heard Canadians boast about their "Made in Canada" YJ's. > Take Phil for example (sorry mate - recent example - not picking on you - I > understand your point of view too!). He used the phrase "Pissan". Well I've > driven late model Nissan Patrols that are MILES above Jeeps in quality - and > The Aussies seem to think they're pretty tough (and there 4x4 can be > important for survival - not just cool). Yeah, Oz, land of rugged 4x4's - where suspension mods over 2.5" are forbidden. Ever notice that OME doesn't make lifts over 2.5"? There is a reason - and that is why. I have a couple of friends that work for ARB and they've been trying to convince the main office that OME needs taller lifts for the US market and they just weren't understanding the market here. They finally convinced some of the engineers to fly up and check out what wheelin is like in the States. I've been told these guys jaws were hitting the ground when they saw what we do - both to our vehicles and where we take them. Maybe Nissan makes kick-butt Patrols now, but they sure don't sell them here... we get whimpy X-Terras & Pathfinders... and resale on Nissans here is less than stellar. I had a Nissan station wagon a few years ago and it impressed me so much I will probably never buy another Nissan product... even if it is "made" in Kentucky. > I've heard lots of folks recently ranting about the sad death of the great > American freedom fighting jeep, blah blah blah because they're upset about > what they percieve as the "German" decision to loose the solid axle etc. > What they fail to realise is > 1) The KJ was on the books BEFORE Daimler thought of buying Chrysler. Mmmm... maybe. Jeep has dealt with independant suspension before... '63 Wagoneers had the OPTION of IFS or solid axle, before that, there was the M-151 (made by Kaiser-Jeep, Ford, GM & AM-General) - and the Icon Concept of a few years ago was IFS & IRS. Regardless, it is DC that is bringing the Liberty to market, so they are going to get the pat on the back or kick in the butt for it depending on its success. > 2) The Germans don't OWN D-C, a bunch of Swiss-German bankers and the > Kuwaities do!! Maybe Germans don't OWN it, but they ARE the ones sitting behind the big mahogany desks calling the shots. > 3) If you tear into your beloved American XJ you find "made in France" and > "made in Japan" stamped everywhere!! No "Made in France" on mine... I don't have a Peugeot tranny (a real fine piece for the French to be proud of) and I don't have a Renix fuel injection system (funny how when _Americans_ changed the injection system, it got simpler AND more powerful. > That's been the traditional thinking anyway - that's led us to where we are. > > I'd say there's a greater chance of diesel power with the D in D-C. Not argueing that, just that the Detroit V6 may not see production - though _I_ think it would be great if they do. > Good Lord - i've ranted ! :-) And I've ranted back in my American Pride... even if Canadians in British uniforms did burn down the White House. ;) Paul Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:56:31 -0800 (PST) From: yankstrap Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Careful, Dale. If you did it in a "heartbeat", you'd have a Chevrolet, and that would give you a Corp 10.5 inch 14 bolt rear, Dana 60 front, NP 205 and a 454 V8. Close, but different. And Furds came with 70 rear, 60 RR front and NP 205, that at least has the correct drop for your XJ. Oh well, Mo-par to you, whatever you choose. As for me, I'll Scout around the yards for my American-made parts (oops, did I just trip over a Dissan)? - --- Dale Rittenbach wrote: > Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:17:09 -0800 > From: Dale Rittenbach > To: xj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? > Reply-to: xj-at-digest.net > > Nope, sorry Bill I give it to the early 90's Dodge > Rams, 70 rear, 60 > front, 205, and the Cummins..... If I could fit > that drive train in my > XJ I would in a heart beat :) > -- > Dale Rittenbach > www.uidaho.edu/~ritt3642 > "Are you the police?" > "No ma'am, we're musicians" > The Blues Brothers > > So, do you reckon it's safe to say that the 78-79 > Broncos are the > toughest trucks > ever to come off a showroom floor (in stock shape). > I mean - > Reverse cut D44, 9", > NP205, sweet ! > > Bill Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:20:24 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: TBI vs. Weber my bbd is giving me fits at an idle again... I'm not ready to do the engine swap, and otherwise things are working well... So, rather than mess around with the bbd again I'm thinking that I might be able to drop a Weber on it to keep SuperDawg chugging along for a while... I already sent the Howell TBI back... that was just over a grand. A Weber can be had for about $300 or less if I can find a used one. My question is, WHAT IS THE FUEL MILEAGE DIFFERENCE BTWN a TBI setup and a Weber anyway? john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:42:59 -0800 From: Dale Rittenbach Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Actually if I did it in a Heartbeat I would have a really fast conversion, I would never do it WITH a Heartbeat........ Those are better left in the ER when they get sick. I know the Turd Tcase would work with a Cherokee, but I don't Willy wanna hook a 205 to a 30 :) I also like to Scout about, I guess that makes II of us eh? I am always looking around for the ultimate Econofind to pull parts from, I am just scared I will have to pick between Dissan or Datun when I find what I want. I guess in the end thought it's all the same. I just want to have my idea of the Ultima Heep I can build - -- Dale Rittenbach www.uidaho.edu/~ritt3642 "Are you the police?" "No ma'am, we're musicians" The Blues Brothers Careful, Dale. If you did it in a "heartbeat", you'd have a Chevrolet, and that would give you a Corp 10.5 inch 14 bolt rear, Dana 60 front, NP 205 and a 454 V8. Close, but different. And Furds came with 70 rear, 60 RR front and NP 205, that at least has the correct drop for your XJ. Oh well, Mo-par to you, whatever you choose. As for me, I'll Scout around the yards for my American-made parts (oops, did I just trip over a Dissan)? ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1062 *************************