From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 24 11:38:46 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Tuesday, January 23 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1063 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: Re: Injectors and bad gas? xj: Edelbrock (Weber) carb FS RE: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? xj: toys RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Re: xj: toys RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? Re: xj: toys Re: xj: bulbs Re: xj: Re: Injectors and bad gas? xj: Re: TBI vs. Weber xj: Re: TBI vs. Weber xj: Re: IPF lights xj: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... Re: xj: toys Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:32:13 -0700 From: Donna&Joe Subject: xj: Re: Injectors and bad gas? [Hmmm... sent this just as the list went down so it was never posted. Don't know if Paul S. is still around, but thought I'd send it again just in case.] Paul S.; Worst highway mileage I ever got was 17mpg on a trip to Bahia Kino w/ two sailboards, two mtn.bikes, and two lawn chairs up on top. But about your injector question.... Can't remember the specifics (maybe someone else can help, maybe from the stroker group?) but I recall hearing that injectors from Mustang 5.0L's will work on a 4.0L HO engine. They're less than half the $$ compared to the D-C factory ones, but they come in sets of 8. Might be worth investigating. And while I have the floor, my own belated intro (weren't we doing that before the list went down?): Joe Richardson, Los Alamos NM. '92XJ Sport 5spd. w/ 2" R.E. AAL/coil spacer lift, OME shocks & some other stuff; '83 Subaru Brat; '65 Chevy Impala SS ragtop; & '77 Yamaha XT500 thumper. Paul Schifanella wrote: >There was some posts last month about an epidemic of injectors going bad. I >think someone blamed it on bad gas. >I took a trip over X-mas from Tahlequah, Oklahoma to Birmingham, Al. >(By the way, I got 16 MPG on the highway with an ugly-as-hell, >not-very-aerodynamic-at-all, box-shaped, roof-top carrier strapper to the >factory luggage rack. Is this about average gass milage?) >Back to the point. I had #2 and #3 injectors go bad. The dealership said >they couldn't get any before I was supposed to return to OK. I ended up >replacing 2 with aftermarket injectors from Auto Zone. $48.99 + tax each. >For some idiotic reason, each Auto Zone will only stock ONE injector. Had to >go to 2 different stores to get them. >After I put it back together, #1 injector was leaking. Another 4 at $48.99 >and at 4 more stores and no leaks. >NOTE: I found out the hard way that there is an O-ring where the regulator >connects to the fuel rail. I'm sure you guys knew that, but none of you >were helping me at the time. Besides this was the first time I ever messed >with injectors. >These Auto Zone injectors don't seem to run as good as the old factory ones >even when clogged and leaking. >What replacement injectors have you guys who had to replace them used? >Anyone figure out if bad gas was the reason? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:34:43 -0700 From: Donna&Joe Subject: xj: Edelbrock (Weber) carb FS I've got a nearly new Edelbrock Performer carb that I don't want, and I thought I'd offer it up here before going the ebay route. Tried it on my '65 Impala w/ the 327 but just couldn't seem to get it dialed in or leaned out, so gave up and put the Rochester back on. It's model 1406 (600 cfm, elec. choke, non-emission, all aluminum) and goes for $228 new from Summit. I was thinking of half that, shipping included, and that'd also include extra rods & jets, and the off-road needles & seats. E-me off list if you're interested. And for our mandatory Xj content: Now that the Impala is running I was gonna drive it to work today, but the driveway is so iced up I could only get out of the garage with the Cherokee this AM! Thanks for your patience w/ the spam..., - - Joe Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:02:48 -0500 From: "Darren K. Page" Subject: RE: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Thanks for the info. everyone. I just wanted to confirm what I already knew. I'm going to try and bid for a ring & pinion on eBay, so had to be extra sure. I wanted to abide by the seller's dire warning 'not responsible for mistakes'. Now, if I could just find some axleshafts for the 44... Aaron: Yes, it is an XJ 44, but I don't know what year. There is quite a bit of black paint on the tubes, so I haven't found the build code yet. Also, I already have a YJ front D30 that I want to use the R&P from in my XJ D30. They are from a four cyl. w/4.10's, which is what I want to put in the 44, along with a Detroit. Thanks! Darren K. Page Montreal, Qc - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Paul W. Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 1:43 AM To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Standard cut ('rotation' is a misnomer). Here's the easy rules for OEM axles: 1. ALL rear axles are standard cut. 2. MOST front axles are standard cut - here's the exceptions: a. Ford trucks have reverse rotation front axles in Dana 35, 44, 50 & 60 (older ones are std. though) b. Jeep XJ, MJ & YJ have reverse cut Dana 30 fronts. 3. If there's any doubt, look at where the pinion is located in the carrier. If it is below the horizontal centerline it is standard, above and it's reverse. That's why reverse cut axles are also referred to as 'high pinion' Of course, when you're dealing with custom axles, rules 1 & 2 do not apply, in that case, just go straight to rule #3. :) Paul "Darren K. Page" wrote: > Hello All, > > Could someone please confirm to me whether or not a Dana 44 from an XJ is > STD or REV rotation? > > I'm in the process of building one to swap into my XJ, and I am gathering > info on it. > I would open it to check, but it is currently in a shed at the outlaws. > > Thanks! > > Darren K. Page > Montreal, Qc > mailto:dkpage-at-videotron.ca > http://pages.infinit.net/dukedar/ Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:17:49 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: toys >Now I'm thinking of a toy I had as a kid... >Was a 4x4 that had claws come out of the wheels when it got into some heavy >stuff. Kinda like a locker now that I think about it....instead of locking >the diff it turned these nifty claws out. I remember those, my kid had one... that was about 5 years ago, right? john :) - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:15:47 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? A: That works out to a little less than 20 mpg (about the same as an XJ) From: "Salinovich, David (CSC at Alcoa)" I used too drive a suzuki sierra or samurai they are called in the US. They are very fuel effecient and would certainly go places my 97 XJ wont. I got around 100km's per 10litres of fuel (sorry I dont know what that is in miles per gallon) and in my XJ I get 100km's per 15 litres of fuel. Great little cars, just gutless and tend to die on there roof's as myne did. Dave ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:16:11 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Dagnabbit, you beat me to the pun....lol I was gonna lay the pun down on the "hearbeat" thing.... Heh. Phil - ----Original Message Follows---- From: yankstrap Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: XJ Dana 44 - Which Rotation? Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:56:31 -0800 (PST) Careful, Dale. If you did it in a "heartbeat", you'd have a Chevrolet, and that would give you a Corp 10.5 inch 14 bolt rear, Dana 60 front, NP 205 and a 454 V8. Close, but different. And Furds came with 70 rear, 60 RR front and NP 205, that at least has the correct drop for your XJ. Oh well, Mo-par to you, whatever you choose. As for me, I'll Scout around the yards for my American-made parts (oops, did I just trip over a Dissan)? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:24:20 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: toys Nah John, the first ones were about 15 years ago..... LOL Phil (Young but feeling old) - ----Original Message Follows---- From: john Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: xj: toys Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:17:49 -0800 >Now I'm thinking of a toy I had as a kid... >Was a 4x4 that had claws come out of the wheels when it got into some heavy >stuff. Kinda like a locker now that I think about it....instead of locking >the diff it turned these nifty claws out. I remember those, my kid had one... that was about 5 years ago, right? john :) - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:31:39 +0800 From: "Salinovich, David (CSC at Alcoa)" Subject: RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? Dont think so, XJ uses 50% more fuel than my suzuki did. > -----Original Message----- > From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net [SMTP:Carnuck-at-webtv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 16:16 > To: xj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: xj: Re: fsj: fuel efficient 4x4s??? > > A: That works out to a little less than 20 mpg (about the same as an XJ) > > From: "Salinovich, David (CSC at Alcoa)" > I used too drive a suzuki sierra or samurai they are called in the US. > They are very fuel effecient and would certainly go places my 97 XJ > wont. I got around 100km's per 10litres of fuel (sorry I dont know what > that is in miles per gallon) and in my XJ I get 100km's per 15 litres of > fuel. Great little cars, just gutless and tend to die on there roof's as > myne did. > Dave > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** Alcoa World Alumina Australia is a trading name of Alcoa of Australia Limited, ACN 004 879 298 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 101 23:57:53 -1000 (HST) From: Alan Chung Subject: Re: xj: toys Heya I had that toy years ago! Yeah you could either turn the hubs for no claws, claws when traction was needed or "locked" out claws. Remember..."Nothing Can Stop!...The Animal!" Mahalo Alan Chung 90 Cherokee Limited 4.6 Bellingham, Wa P.S. My grown up toy is my Jeep of course, but I also have a 4WD 3-speed Tamiya Bruiser as well! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 101 00:08:05 -1000 (HST) From: Alan Chung Subject: Re: xj: bulbs Hey All Ordered the bulbs from Central 4WD. Got them for a great price too, altogether it comes out to about $198 dollars plus tax. I ordered the IPF wiring harness along with the two IPF head lamp units and the Magic J bulbs. Have to wait for three weeks, but I think Itll be worth the wait! Thanks! Mahalo Alan Chung ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:14:53 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Re: Injectors and bad gas? Donna&Joe wrote: > > > Can't remember the specifics (maybe someone else can help, maybe from the > stroker group?) but I recall hearing that injectors from Mustang 5.0L's will > work on a 4.0L HO engine. They're less than half the $$ compared to the D-C > factory ones, but they come in sets of 8. Might be worth investigating. > Ford injectors are 19 lbs/hr, Jeep 19.7 lbs/hr. Consensus seems to be that <1lb/hr won't be harmful. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:26:05 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: Re: TBI vs. Weber because LPG costs more than Diesel, produces less power and gets worse economy... At 11:53 PM 1/22/01 -0800, you wrote: >A: About 1/2 (Weber = power, TBI = controlled feed) Why not convert to >LPG? - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:01:04 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: xj: Re: TBI vs. Weber A: IF you have it delivered it's expensive! I fueled up in Bellingham, and it was $0.99 a gallon there. It's even cheaper in Canada ($.45 a litre CDN). The myth that LPG makes less power comes from people running LPG in low compression (emission controlled) stock gas motors, which can't take advantage of the "octane". About the same as running diesel in an 8:1 compression gas motor. I ran one of the Olds diesel conversions (re-converted to gas) at 15:1 on Nat Gas and got 14 seconds avg in the 1/4 mile. Higher spark than what most stock sytems (besides GM HEI) had in the '70s kind of killed the power too. I will be running Splitfire plugs with Splitfire wires on Blackie. I wish I could run with a high output MSD, Jacobs or similar coil, but it may be difficult to graft into the Renix system.. I found out that if you just run the plugs, you lose 1/2 or more the possible power of the plug (I was a non believer till I saw the demonstration in our store for myself. I even swapped out plugs in the display, switched coils, plug brands and wires. That was the only combo that snapped the gap with any real power! I guess I'll see how they do in real world conditions. I definitely saw what the wires did to a set of Bosch double plats and some AC Rapid fires in a Turbo Laser! No electrodes left after a month! U wrote: because LPG costs more than Diesel, produces less power and gets worse economy... At 11:53 PM 1/22/01 -0800, you wrote: A: About 1/2 (Weber = power, TBI = controlled feed) Why not convert to LPG? ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:18:07 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: Re: IPF lights At 12:05 AM 1/23/01 -1000, Alan Chung wrote: >Hey John > Thanks! I got on the phone with Bill VT, got the headlamp >units for $28, the Magic J-bulbs for $59, and the wiring harness for >$83. But the only thing is I have to wait, they are on 3 week back >order...hopefully worth the wait. Was the wiring harness pretty easy >to install btw? ttyl > >Mahalo Alan The wiring harness was a snap to install. I had no trouble with my J10 and only a little problem with my little wagoneer because of the tree incident, the battery tray area isn't 100%. :) On my Mercedes and on mark's old J3000 I had to drill out the headlight buckets to get the connector through. Pictures at: general IPF info: http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/IPF/ the J10 installation: (will be about the same for your xj) http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/IPF/H4-lamps/All-the-pix.html the J3000 installation: (similar to what my 300D would have been) http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Wiring/H4-harness-67-J3000/ My 300D needed to be drilled (didn't do it) and on my 300SD I don't think I'll need to... Thanx for getting the prices. I need to get the rectangular lamps for my 300SD if I keep it... (considering the European style headlights... much more money, but they look cooler, and I'll run the IPF bulbs. :) I'm going to post this to the list along with Central's toll free and have them contact Bill Van Tuyl. These prices are much better than the list prices from a year ago. 1-800-829-9599 bill - central 4x4 - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:57:25 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... Did some research this morning... called my propane supplier, he's well versed in the propane world, has a couple conversions he owns... bottom line, propane produces about 10% less power at the rear wheels, and you can see as much as 25% loss in economy. Here are the current local prices, and then an analysis of my commute and costs comparing my '83 J10 with my '83 300SD. (My '88 xj is just about the same as my J10, 14 to 16 mpg. I'm using lower mileage figures to make it more realistic.) =========================================================== Fuel Costs January 23, 2001 Everett - Mill Creek - Snohomish areas (Washington State) - - regular unleaded - Shell Mill Creek - $1.439 - - "premium" Diesel - Texaco Clearview - $1.79 - - PROPANE - bottle refill - Everett - $1.90 - - PROPANE - motor fuel - Everett - $1.683 - - PROPANE - home delivery - Snohomish - $1.82 So, if I drive 800 miles a month, this is how it breaks out: J10 300SD J10 - LPG (25% less economy, est. by propane guy) MPG: 14 24 10.5 GALLONS 57.1 33.3 76.2 cost $82.23 $59.67 $128.23 roughly $83 for the J10 on unleaded, and $128 (or maybe less) on propane, (even if the mileage was the same it would be: $96.17, but I'd still see around 10% power loss, and up to 25% less fuel economy with propane!) If I get the mileage on the J10 up to around 20mpg, then my fuel costs drop to $57.56. This isn't too far fetched if I can fuel inject it or get a decent carb. I should be able to get it up to 17 to 18 mpg without too much expense... and a lighter foot. If I can get the algae problem resolved on my 300SD and drive it economically (rofl), I could do 26 mpg and spend about: $55.08 My worst mileage with the big benz is mid 23, typical around 24 mpg, that's in town, pedal down... So, it looks like with Diesel prices coming down a bit that driving my 300SD is more economical. (My xj, with 207,000 miles, only gets around 14 to 16 mpg). ============================ misc: Unleaded vehicles produce copious amounts of carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, HC, and a bunch of other nasty stuff... ;) And are about 15 to 25% efficient. Diesel vehicles produce carbon dioxide, a few HC, aldehyde and a few HCs, not quite as nasty... and are about 40% efficient, or better. Propane vehicles are by far the cleanest, but you see about 10% less power at the rear wheels over gasoline, AND you see as much as 25% less fuel economy, AND you're now paying more... And, the Federal Government mandated about 5 years ago that any aftermarket conversion for propane or LPG must be federally approved or it's illegal... So, a combination of high prices and ridiculous legislation has made propane a poor option. ======= If I park the J10 and drive the 300SD I'll also save $65 a month in insurance... :( Guess that'll give me time to get a nice 4.0L driveline setup and hope and pray for 20mpg... :) john, thinking again... dangerous... ;) - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-1.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-2.jpg FS JEEPs: V8 360/401 use: TS-23 I-6 258 uses: TS-12 retail $21.50 xj JEEPS: 4.0L/2.5L('87 and up) uses: TS-29 retail $29.95 DieselBenz varies: typical S1118 or S1680 retail $32.50 or $39.85 http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ To order 1-800-956-5695 customer# 283461 Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:15:44 -0800 From: "Phil M." Subject: Re: xj: toys That's right......hehehe! Thanks Alan! Phil - ----Original Message Follows---- From: Alan Chung Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: toys Date: Mon, 22 Jan 101 23:57:53 -1000 (HST) Heya I had that toy years ago! Yeah you could either turn the hubs for no claws, claws when traction was needed or "locked" out claws. Remember..."Nothing Can Stop!...The Animal!" Mahalo Alan Chung 90 Cherokee Limited 4.6 Bellingham, Wa P.S. My grown up toy is my Jeep of course, but I also have a 4WD 3-speed Tamiya Bruiser as well! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:54:54 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: Diesels -at- DC "Paul W." wrote: > But Euro diesels have been on the gutless side - and that's what doesn't sell > in America, land of the "get-the-hell-outta-my-way--I'm-late' crowd. :) Good point > > Plus, I've noticed Americans can be WAAAAY too emotional about vehicles and > > "made in the USA" Bravado. > > You would too - If there were such thing as a real "Made in Canada" car. Au contraire - that's the fundamental difference in our cultural makeup - something not everyone understands as we appear on the surface very similar. but we are by very definition blase about everything, even including our own heroes. > Yeah, Oz, land of rugged 4x4's - where suspension mods over 2.5" are forbidden. > Ever notice that OME doesn't make lifts over 2.5"? There is a reason - and > that is why. I have a couple of friends that work for ARB and they've been > trying to convince the main office that OME needs taller lifts for the US > market and they just weren't understanding the market here. They finally > convinced some of the engineers to fly up and check out what wheelin is like in > the States. I've been told these guys jaws were hitting the ground when they > saw what we do - both to our vehicles and where we take them. Well - American excess is always fascinating !! My favourite example is tractor pulling - my good Lord...only in America as they say ! :-) > Maybe Nissan makes kick-butt Patrols now, but they sure don't sell them here... Blame the American ,arket for that - not the manufacturer (my point) > > we get whimpy X-Terras & Pathfinders... Hmm - the new 250hp Pathfinder is hardly wimpy - it's no Jeep (can we say that now the KJ is out - seems a little "diluted" now doesn't it!), but I still like it. > and resale on Nissans here is less than > stellar. I had a Nissan station wagon a few years ago and it impressed me so > much I will probably never buy another Nissan product... even if it is "made" > in Kentucky. No, that's why - "made in Kentucky" Gooooly Abner, whadcha 'spect! You need a Nissan made in Japan - much better ! :-) > No "Made in France" on mine... I don't have a Peugeot tranny (a real fine piece > for the French to be proud of) and I don't have a Renix fuel injection system > (funny how when _Americans_ changed the injection system, it got simpler AND > more powerful. Ha - good one! I do wonder how much hand the French element had in the design back then - prob more than we (you) want to know ! There's nothing wrong with the Renix system either - especially considering it's era. Prob superior to most other ""native" American systems at that time. (blatant dig based on absoloutely no facts whatsoever :-) > > And I've ranted back in my American Pride... even if Canadians in British > uniforms did burn down the White House. ;) See - we Canadian are not even sufficiently proud of this little goody. Can anyone name any other nation that has stormed the American Capital and burned it to the ground? Ha - didn't think so! And let's face it - doesn't look like any other nation is likely to be joining this exclusive club anytime soon !!!!. don't mess with us, baby! > > > Paul > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1063 *************************