From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Feb 2 13:14:47 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Friday, February 2 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1072 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: Re: re: 4.0L economy xj: WTB - pass side ex manifold for 2.8 xj: Re: steering box xj: Front Driveshaft Re: xj: Front Driveshaft Re: xj: WTB - pass side ex manifold for 2.8 Re: xj: Front Driveshaft Re: xj: WTB - pass side ex manifold for 2.8 Re: xj: Front Driveshaft Re: xj: Front Driveshaft Re: xj: Front Driveshaft xj: Add a leaf... Re: xj: Re: steering box Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? xj: axle question - turn knuckles? Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:30:05 -0800 From: "Ziemianski" Subject: xj: Re: re: 4.0L economy >I've heard of people getting that kind of mileage in an XJ too... 20-24mpg or >so... haven't tested mine lately, estimate around 16 mpg or so... > >we're in a very hilly area, heavy traffic and a heavy foot... ;) 4.10s >and 30x9.5's with a mild lift probably doesn't help it much either... :) I am getting 16 mpg around town,and 22 plus on the highway. All depends on the terrain and where my right foot stops. This is with my heavily modified 2.8 V-6,5 spd,4.56 gears and 33" tires. I can expect better in the near future with my upcoming home brew fuel injection system. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:12:23 -0600 From: Scott Rozman Subject: xj: WTB - pass side ex manifold for 2.8 Does anyone have a stock exhaust manifold for a 2.8 V6 lying around? My passenger side has been cracked and it just got a lot worse tonight. Also, if you don't have one, but know whether or not these are still available as dealer parts, that info would be helpful too. thanks in advance, Scott 86 & 88 XJs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:12:20 -0700 From: "Aaron Storms" Subject: xj: Re: steering box Doug, Avalanche Engineering used to install these and kept having to replace them. Aaron Aaron Storms Black Hawk, CO aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Wright To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:00 PM Subject: xj: steering box > I've needed to replace my steering box for a while. It's been leaking and > is really hard to turn the first few times just after startup. I figured > now would be a good time since I've got almost everything out of the engine > bay, except for the block. > > I was wondering if anyone had experience with the AGR unit and if it is > worth the money. Should I go with that or just a stock replacement? > > Thanks, > > Doug > > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 23:24:01 -0500 From: Brennan Shepard Subject: xj: Front Driveshaft Alright, try this on for size....I've got the NP207 with the GKN joint on the tcase end. With 3" of lift, it pops all day long in 4wd. So I want to get a later model shaft with the double cardon joint. Problem is it won't bolt up to my tcase and nobody in town has an output yoke from the tcase. Since my tcase has a flat flange, I figure I can just take it off, drill holes to match the double cardon joint flange, and bolt it up. Since I won't use 4wd at high speeds, I'm not concerned about it being balanced. Also, the local yard and my computers at Autozone tell me that there is a different shaft for the 4cyl and the 6cyl. I have a four cyl, the shaft the yard has is from a 6 cyl. I'm guessing it is slightly longer? If so, it would be perfect. SO my questions are, 1)Can I safely redrill the output flange to bolt the double cardon shaft to it? and 2) Is the 6cyl shaft longer?, and 3) Is there an easier way of solving this problem(i.e. a p/n for a flange from the dealer)? The yard only wants $35 for the whole driveshaft off a 95 model, so this idea looks very appealing to me, though I've never had the output flange off, so I don't know if I can redrill it. Thanks for the help...Brennan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 23:00:13 -0600 From: Scott Rozman Subject: Re: xj: Front Driveshaft Brennan- I think you have to come up with the right output yoke for the transfer case. I can't see how you'd mount a round surface of the u-joint to the flat surface of the current output flange. Good news is that I think a 231 output yoke should work fine on your 207. Just check the spline count. There are a few versions of those cases and I'm not sure if there ever varied the spline count on that part. You will need an XJ output yoke (or maybe ZJ); the YJ is different. If you can not locate one used, try Tom Woods. He should be able to set you up with the right part for your case and whatever driveshaft you tell him you are using. I think the yoke I got when I did mine was $50 or so. Scott Roz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:58:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: WTB - pass side ex manifold for 2.8 I don't have any spares and I don't know if you can still buy new ones, but I do know Pacesetter makes a set of headers for 2.8L XJ's if you can't find anything else. You can probably get a used one from Olympic 4x4 Supply in Snohomish, WA... http://www.oly4x4.com/main.htm Phone: 1-800-752-9979 Paul Scott Rozman wrote: > Does anyone have a stock exhaust manifold for a 2.8 V6 lying around? > My passenger side has been cracked and it just got a lot worse tonight. > Also, if you don't have one, but know whether or not these are still > available as dealer parts, that info would be helpful too. > > thanks in advance, > Scott > 86 & 88 XJs __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Front Driveshaft LOL - OK, another plug for Olympic... that's who supplied me with a yoke and front driveshaft for my '86. Olympic 4x4 Supply Snohomish, WA 1-800-752-9979 http://www.oly4x4.com/main.htm Some of the early XJ's did come with a Double Cardon CV instead of the GKN (probably late 86's?) - but some 87's still were issued with NP207's too and these didn't have GKN shafts. If I remember right, Olympic charged me $100 for a shaft and yoke... but that was ~5 years ago, too. Paul Brennan Shepard wrote: > Alright, try this on for size....I've got the NP207 with the GKN joint on the > tcase end. With 3" of lift, it pops all day long in 4wd. So I want to get a > later model shaft with the double cardon joint. Problem is it won't bolt up > to my tcase and nobody in town has an output yoke from the tcase. Since my > tcase has a flat flange, I figure I can just take it off, drill holes to match > the double cardon joint flange, and bolt it up. Since I won't use 4wd at high > speeds, I'm not concerned about it being balanced. Also, the local yard and > my computers at Autozone tell me that there is a different shaft for the 4cyl > and the 6cyl. I have a four cyl, the shaft the yard has is from a 6 cyl. I'm > guessing it is slightly longer? If so, it would be perfect. SO my questions > are, 1)Can I safely redrill the output flange to bolt the double cardon shaft > to it? and 2) Is the 6cyl shaft longer?, and 3) Is there an easier way of > solving this problem(i.e. a p/n for a flange from the dealer)? The yard only > wants $35 for the whole driveshaft off a 95 model, so this idea looks very > appealing to me, though I've never had the output flange off, so I don't know > > if I can redrill it. Thanks for the help...Brennan __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 23:17:02 -0600 From: Scott Rozman Subject: Re: xj: WTB - pass side ex manifold for 2.8 Thanks... at this point, I don't want to get into headers since I think the days of my 2.8 are numbered. When it goes, I think it will GO...meaning engine swap or get whatever cash I can get out a dead Jeep and get an MJ since I tend to use my 86 like a daily driver/work truck... hauling crap, storing Jeep parts etc. Scott Paul W. wrote: > I don't have any spares and I don't know if you can still buy new ones, but I > do know Pacesetter makes a set of headers for 2.8L XJ's if you can't find > anything else. > > You can probably get a used one from Olympic 4x4 Supply in Snohomish, WA... > > http://www.oly4x4.com/main.htm > Phone: 1-800-752-9979 > > Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 19:30:55 -1000 (HST) From: Alan Chung Subject: Re: xj: Front Driveshaft Heya There are different shafts if you have a auto or a manual too! Mahalo Alan Chung 90 Cherokee Limited 4.6 Bellingham, WA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:34:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Front Driveshaft As to your questions... Brennan Shepard wrote: > SO my questions are, > 1)Can I safely redrill the output flange to bolt the double cardon shaft > to it? NO! The two are WAY different. You -MIGHT- be able to adapt a Saginaw style Double Cardan to the GKN yoke, since they use a flat flange style yoke. > 2) Is the 6cyl shaft longer?, I'm not sure - I thought the differences were more related to what transmission is used. > 3) Is there an easier way of solving this problem (i.e. a p/n for a flange from the dealer)? As previously suggested, look into the 231 yokes and see if they'll fit. I haven't tried, but I'm guessing they will swap over. > The yard only wants $35 for the whole driveshaft off a 95 model, so this idea > looks very appealing to me, though I've never had the output flange off, so I > don't know if I can redrill it. Thanks for the help...Brennan $35 for a DC CV shaft is a good deal! If the shaft is too long, it can always be shortned. And if it's too short, you should be able to get it re-tubed and still be well under the cost of a new Tom Woods (or the like) shaft. Paul (would have answered these in the last post, by my mail browser freaked out and I was lucky enough to get the last bit to send :) __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:37:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Front Driveshaft "Paul W." wrote: > As to your questions... > > Brennan Shepard wrote: > > SO my questions are, > > 1)Can I safely redrill the output flange to bolt the double cardon shaft > > to it? > > NO! The two are WAY different. You -MIGHT- be able to adapt a Saginaw style > Double Cardan to the GKN yoke, since they use a flat flange style yoke. Oh, and you can find Saginaw style DC CV's in GM trucks. I'm not sure what the S-trucks use, but the full-size trucks use the same size U-joints as the XJ so the pinion end U-joint will fit in your existing yoke. Paul __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:30:43 -0500 From: "Andrew Bienhaus" Subject: xj: Add a leaf... : Gotta say my experience was not the same as Bob's here. I : installed the : Rubicon Express coil spacer/AAL 2" lift and my ride stiffened : considerably. : I don't mind, as it's more stable now towing my camper, but : running empty : and w/ no passengers, it's kinda rough. Might have been the : R.E. AAL vs. : some other brand, or it might have been the Old Man Emu : shocks I installed : concurrently, but I did notice a stiffer ride. I think I : paid ~$100 for the : spacers and full-length AALs, FWIW. Hasn't sagged in the 2 : years since I : did the install. And in a Paul W.-esque disclosure, while I : didn't buy new : U-bolts, you should make sure you do! : - - Joe Richardson The $150 canadian, includes new UBolts as well. Some stiffness improvement in the rear would be an asset, as the geormetry of the rear suspension in now nearing dangerous on city streets. :-) I think for the $150, I can't go wrong. I really don't want to lift the vehicle, as I'm already high enough for my tastes... :) And, the $150 is installed, so I don't even have to get dirty. :-) Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:04:07 -0600 From: Doug Wright Subject: Re: xj: Re: steering box That's good to know. I could get a used one for $50 instead of paying $350 for the AGR. Doug >Doug, Avalanche Engineering used to install these and kept having to replace >them. Aaron > >Aaron Storms >Black Hawk, CO >aaron.storms-at-mindspring.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Doug Wright >To: >Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:00 PM >Subject: xj: steering box > > >> I've needed to replace my steering box for a while. It's been leaking and >> is really hard to turn the first few times just after startup. I figured >> now would be a good time since I've got almost everything out of the >engine >> bay, except for the block. >> >> I was wondering if anyone had experience with the AGR unit and if it is >> worth the money. Should I go with that or just a stock replacement? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Doug >> >> doug-at-hammerdesigns.net > doug-at-hammerdesigns.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 13:44:26 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? Paul - I have read your axle article over a couple of times now, and I'm salivating.(IF I can find the parts cheap) One thing I can't picture: The tubes are pressed and welded into the knuckles aren't they? How do you remove the stock knuckles without shortening the tubes? Bill "Paul W." wrote: > You CAN cut & turn the XJ knuckle yokes... that is essentially what I did when > I put Scout D30 knuckle yokes on mine. A plasma cutter will make it a LOT > easier... and you'll want to remove the axle from the rig for easy access. > > Turning at the housing can be done, but it is harder to do. The tubes are > pressed into the housing tighter than the knuckles are. The guy who has > narrowed a few D44's for me (and lots of other folks) says he avoids removing > tubes from the pumpkins whenever possible as they are a major big PIA - and he > has the tools to do this sort of thing - in fact, it's pretty much his main > source of income. (He does other machine work, too - but ~80-90% of his > business is making custom axles.) > > Paul > > samfans wrote: > > Well, with the pinion adjusted for no front shaft vibes (10 degerees > > BTW) I have little or no castor and combined with the fulltime locker, > > the steering is TERRIBLE - all over the road! > > > > The hub conversion is nice but over $2k when it's said and done, and > > it's still a D30 (altho with the strength of a D44) > > > > My only other options are > > > > - try a YJ non-cv shaft cut down,and lower the pinion - but I hear the > > angles will be to extreme on the U-joints?? > > > > or > > > > - cut and turn the knuckles. But with the XJ spring mounts and such - > > there's no damn room. Sooooo > > > > Can I turn the tubes at the housing? drill out the plug welds, turn > > whole tubes, then re-weld? Or are they pressed in too tight??? > > > > Is there any chance this sort of thing could be accomplished at a home > > shop ?? > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:02:58 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? Paul, Some other questions. You mentioned that once the Scout D30 yokes are on, there are a lot of options for knuckles and out. Will i be able to use, as John Nutter states: "A common setup is to use '77 or earlier Wagoneer or Chevy outer knuckles and brakes combined with '77 or earlier Chevy or Wagoneer disc brake spindles and F-150 hubs, rotors, bearings and seals. This combination yeilds a 5 on 5 1/2" wheel bolt pattern and has 1/2 ton outers. These knuckles have the flat top needed for a high clearance steering conversion. " He was talking in his article about narrowing a D44. Bill "Paul W." wrote: > You CAN cut & turn the XJ knuckle yokes... that is essentially what I did when > I put Scout D30 knuckle yokes on mine. A plasma cutter will make it a LOT > easier... and you'll want to remove the axle from the rig for easy access. > > Turning at the housing can be done, but it is harder to do. The tubes are > pressed into the housing tighter than the knuckles are. The guy who has > narrowed a few D44's for me (and lots of other folks) says he avoids removing > tubes from the pumpkins whenever possible as they are a major big PIA - and he > has the tools to do this sort of thing - in fact, it's pretty much his main > source of income. (He does other machine work, too - but ~80-90% of his > business is making custom axles.) > > Paul > > samfans wrote: > > Well, with the pinion adjusted for no front shaft vibes (10 degerees > > BTW) I have little or no castor and combined with the fulltime locker, > > the steering is TERRIBLE - all over the road! > > > > The hub conversion is nice but over $2k when it's said and done, and > > it's still a D30 (altho with the strength of a D44) > > > > My only other options are > > > > - try a YJ non-cv shaft cut down,and lower the pinion - but I hear the > > angles will be to extreme on the U-joints?? > > > > or > > > > - cut and turn the knuckles. But with the XJ spring mounts and such - > > there's no damn room. Sooooo > > > > Can I turn the tubes at the housing? drill out the plug welds, turn > > whole tubes, then re-weld? Or are they pressed in too tight??? > > > > Is there any chance this sort of thing could be accomplished at a home > > shop ?? > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:25:44 -0400 From: samfans Subject: Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? Paul, Crazy Idea. If I can't find the scout D30 yokes that'll fit my tubes, can I just find a 1/2 ton or Wag or whatever with what I want from the yokes out, liberate them, and use some custom tubing to fit the yokes to my tubes? This sounds WAY too easy - why won't it work? Bill "Paul W." wrote: > You CAN cut & turn the XJ knuckle yokes... that is essentially what I did when > I put Scout D30 knuckle yokes on mine. A plasma cutter will make it a LOT > easier... and you'll want to remove the axle from the rig for easy access. > > Turning at the housing can be done, but it is harder to do. The tubes are > pressed into the housing tighter than the knuckles are. The guy who has > narrowed a few D44's for me (and lots of other folks) says he avoids removing > tubes from the pumpkins whenever possible as they are a major big PIA - and he > has the tools to do this sort of thing - in fact, it's pretty much his main > source of income. (He does other machine work, too - but ~80-90% of his > business is making custom axles.) > > Paul > > samfans wrote: > > Well, with the pinion adjusted for no front shaft vibes (10 degerees > > BTW) I have little or no castor and combined with the fulltime locker, > > the steering is TERRIBLE - all over the road! > > > > The hub conversion is nice but over $2k when it's said and done, and > > it's still a D30 (altho with the strength of a D44) > > > > My only other options are > > > > - try a YJ non-cv shaft cut down,and lower the pinion - but I hear the > > angles will be to extreme on the U-joints?? > > > > or > > > > - cut and turn the knuckles. But with the XJ spring mounts and such - > > there's no damn room. Sooooo > > > > Can I turn the tubes at the housing? drill out the plug welds, turn > > whole tubes, then re-weld? Or are they pressed in too tight??? > > > > Is there any chance this sort of thing could be accomplished at a home > > shop ?? > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:53:23 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: xj: axle question - turn knuckles? Bill, a couple folks have done the knuckle swap. One guy on NAXJA has done it for sure in addition to Paul. If you are going to install new ends, then you could torch off the stock end till it is close, then carefully grind till you get all the pieces off. The biggest problem with this mod in my opinion is the need for a totally custom axle shaft. I think the overall width using cj style wheels comes out close to stock, but the reason you need shorter axle shafts is because the distance from the end of the axle tube to the centerline of the ball joints is much shorter for the cj/D44 housing ends than it is for the XJ/TJ/ZJ housing ends. I think the knuckle assembly distance from the ball joint centerlines to the wheel mounting face is larger on the cj/D44 parts though which compensates for the shorter shafts. Jeff samfans wrote: > > Paul - I have read your axle article over a couple of times now, and I'm > salivating.(IF I can find the parts cheap) > > One thing I can't picture: > > The tubes are pressed and welded into the knuckles aren't they? How do you remove > the stock knuckles without shortening the tubes? > > Bill > > "Paul W." wrote: > > > You CAN cut & turn the XJ knuckle yokes... that is essentially what I did when > > I put Scout D30 knuckle yokes on mine. A plasma cutter will make it a LOT > > easier... and you'll want to remove the axle from the rig for easy access. > > > > Turning at the housing can be done, but it is harder to do. The tubes are > > pressed into the housing tighter than the knuckles are. The guy who has > > narrowed a few D44's for me (and lots of other folks) says he avoids removing > > tubes from the pumpkins whenever possible as they are a major big PIA - and he > > has the tools to do this sort of thing - in fact, it's pretty much his main > > source of income. (He does other machine work, too - but ~80-90% of his > > business is making custom axles.) > > > > Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:54:57 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: Re: xj: axle question - turn knuckles ?? I'm not Paul, but YES. Jeff samfans wrote: > > Paul, > > Some other questions. > > You mentioned that once the Scout D30 yokes are on, there are a lot of options for > knuckles and out. > > Will i be able to use, as John Nutter states: > > "A common setup is to use '77 or earlier Wagoneer or Chevy outer knuckles and > brakes combined with '77 or earlier Chevy or Wagoneer disc brake spindles and > F-150 hubs, rotors, bearings and seals. This combination yeilds a 5 on 5 1/2" > wheel bolt pattern and has 1/2 ton outers. These knuckles have the flat top needed > for a high clearance steering conversion. " > > He was talking in his article about narrowing a D44. > > Bill > > "Paul W." wrote: > > > You CAN cut & turn the XJ knuckle yokes... that is essentially what I did when > > I put Scout D30 knuckle yokes on mine. A plasma cutter will make it a LOT > > easier... and you'll want to remove the axle from the rig for easy access. > > > > Turning at the housing can be done, but it is harder to do. The tubes are > > pressed into the housing tighter than the knuckles are. The guy who has > > narrowed a few D44's for me (and lots of other folks) says he avoids removing > > tubes from the pumpkins whenever possible as they are a major big PIA - and he > > has the tools to do this sort of thing - in fact, it's pretty much his main > > source of income. (He does other machine work, too - but ~80-90% of his > > business is making custom axles.) > > > > Paul > > > > samfans wrote: > > > Well, with the pinion adjusted for no front shaft vibes (10 degerees > > > BTW) I have little or no castor and combined with the fulltime locker, > > > the steering is TERRIBLE - all over the road! > > > > > > The hub conversion is nice but over $2k when it's said and done, and > > > it's still a D30 (altho with the strength of a D44) > > > > > > My only other options are > > > > > > - try a YJ non-cv shaft cut down,and lower the pinion - but I hear the > > > angles will be to extreme on the U-joints?? > > > > > > or > > > > > > - cut and turn the knuckles. But with the XJ spring mounts and such - > > > there's no damn room. Sooooo > > > > > > Can I turn the tubes at the housing? drill out the plug welds, turn > > > whole tubes, then re-weld? Or are they pressed in too tight??? > > > > > > Is there any chance this sort of thing could be accomplished at a home > > > shop ?? > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1072 *************************