From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Feb 14 11:10:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (IDENT:exim-at-krusty1.krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by virtual-cafe.com (8.9.0/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22116 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:59:19 -0800 Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 3.15 #4) id 14T71c-0007TW-00 for xj-digest-outgoing-at-digest.net; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:51:36 -0500 From: owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net (xj-digest) To: xj-digest-at-digest.net Subject: xj-digest V1 #1085 Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net Sender: owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:51:36 -0500 xj-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1085 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: it's not how fast... xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Re: xj: it's not how fast... yes it is Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp xj: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp xj: Re: atmosphere vs. psi xj: Re: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! Re: xj: Re: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:11:17 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: it's not how fast... with a Diesel, it's not how FAST you go, but how FAR. :) >I agree, it would be VERY cool to have one... but you can have the Nissan >diesel, John, I've ridden in a couple of 1980 Scouts with the turbo motor, >and >they are dogs, I can only imagine how bad a non-turbo version would be. >Paul ref the CJ10, http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/CJ10-Aussie-Jeep/ > http://www.truckworld.com/Travel-Adventure/00-arca-farmington/Durham1.jpg - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:47:58 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp I hate to, but I don't have the time to work on it, since my Corvette deal fell through and I'm keeping it. Four cars are just too many. Might as well sell it to somebody who wants a nice project. 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 4-door - - 2.5L 4-cyl, 5sp - - 204k miles - - Silver outside (adequate condition), red interior (very good condition, very clean too) - - A/C works (or so I'm told, since it's winter, I haven't tested it) - - AM/FM Cassette Stereo - - No rust (it's a California car) All in all, it's in good shape. The motor appears to be fine, except it's leaking oil from the front seals. I have the seals, but no time to install them. I've already replaced the following: - - Front brakes (rotors, calipers, fluid, and Performance Friction pads) - - All ignition components except distributor (cap, rotor, wires, plugs, spark module, coil) Includes a Class III trailer hitch and gas tank skid plate, not yet installed. Also includes two new door lock cylinders to replace the existing ones which are getting worn out and difficult to open with the key. Photos can be found here: http://www.f-body.org/rob/84jeep/ Asking $1500. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:34:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: it's not how fast... yes it is Maybe so, but when a loaded Greyhound-style tour bus out accelerates you (in a Scout with the TD version), that's just TOO SLOW! 0-60 times SHOULD be able to be measured with the second hand, not the minute hand. The Nissan is just doesn't have it in my book for a truck... heck, even the 258 was putting out better torque, and that's hardly the motor of choice for a '1 tonne' truck either, IMHO. (FWIW - the Nissan was originally a forklift and marine motor - and it's probably a better choice for those apps.) I'd have to check with my two friends with the '80 Scouts, but if I'm remembering right, the fuel economy isn't what I'd call stellar... I think it's around 20? I'd rather take a 4-8 mpg hit and be able to keep up with traffic and get fuel at ANY gas station... and lately, regular unleaded has been a lot cheaper than diesel. :) Paul john wrote: > with a Diesel, it's not how FAST you go, but how FAR. :) > > >I agree, it would be VERY cool to have one... but you can have the Nissan > >diesel, John, I've ridden in a couple of 1980 Scouts with the turbo motor, > >and they are dogs, I can only imagine how bad a non-turbo version would be. > >Paul Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:40:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Rob, Where in CA are you and/or the Jeep located? Does it pass CA emissions? Not that I'm looking for another one, but these would be nice things to let a potential buyer know. :) Paul Robert Glover wrote: > I hate to, but I don't have the time to work on it, since my Corvette deal > fell through and I'm keeping it. Four cars are just too many. Might as > well sell it to somebody who wants a nice project. > > > 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 4-door > - 2.5L 4-cyl, 5sp > - 204k miles > - Silver outside (adequate condition), red interior (very good condition, > very clean too) > - A/C works (or so I'm told, since it's winter, I haven't tested it) > - AM/FM Cassette Stereo > - No rust (it's a California car) > > All in all, it's in good shape. The motor appears to be fine, except it's > leaking oil from the front seals. I have the seals, but no time to install > them. I've already replaced the following: > > - Front brakes (rotors, calipers, fluid, and Performance Friction pads) > - All ignition components except distributor (cap, rotor, wires, plugs, > spark module, coil) > > Includes a Class III trailer hitch and gas tank skid plate, not yet > installed. Also includes two new door lock cylinders to replace the > existing ones which are getting worn out and difficult to open with the key. > > Photos can be found here: > > http://www.f-body.org/rob/84jeep/ > > Asking $1500. > > Rob Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:34:26 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp From: "Paul W." > Rob, > Where in CA are you and/or the Jeep located? SF Bay Area. > Does it pass CA emissions? It should; my neighbor is supposed to be getting it smogged for me, since she's been driving it since I bought the thing. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp Rob, It looks like the factory options listed on your XJ web page don't apply, possibly they are for another vehicle. Nothing seems to match from the color to the Vortech supercharger. Am I correct? And your XJ does have more than 26K on it, right? - --- Robert Glover wrote: > From: "Paul W." > > > > Rob, > > Where in CA are you and/or the Jeep located? > > SF Bay Area. > > > Does it pass CA emissions? > > It should; my neighbor is supposed to be getting it smogged for me, since > she's been driving it since I bought the thing. > > Rob Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:12:46 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp From: "Terry" > It looks like the factory options listed on your XJ web page don't apply, > possibly they are for another vehicle. Nothing seems to match from the color > to the Vortech supercharger. Am I correct? And your XJ does have more than > 26K on it, right? Um... what are you talking about? There is no web page; that directory is photos only. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp page index.htmblah. - --- Robert Glover wrote: > From: "Terry" > > > > It looks like the factory options listed on your XJ web page don't apply, > > possibly they are for another vehicle. Nothing seems to match from the > color > > to the Vortech supercharger. Am I correct? And your XJ does have more > than > > 26K on it, right? > > Um... what are you talking about? There is no web page; that directory is > photos only. > > Rob Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:04:34 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: xj: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/afecko_99?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:48:42 -0800 From: "Robert Glover" Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp That was not an html page, hence the name. Rob - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: xj: For Sale: 1984 Cherokee Chief 4x4 2.5L 5sp > page index.htmblah. > --- Robert Glover wrote: > > From: "Terry" > > > > > > > It looks like the factory options listed on your XJ web page don't apply, > > > possibly they are for another vehicle. Nothing seems to match from the > > color > > > to the Vortech supercharger. Am I correct? And your XJ does have more > > than > > > 26K on it, right? > > > > Um... what are you talking about? There is no web page; that directory is > > photos only. > > > > Rob > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:22:26 -0800 From: john Subject: xj: Re: atmosphere vs. psi >At 02:44 PM 2/13/01 -0800, Stan Rozycki wrote: >I have 35 lb/sq.inch in my tires. How many atmosferas >it is? All gadges are in atmosferas. >srr 1 atmosphere is approximately equal to 15 psi. so you have just over 2 atmospheres. specifically, 1 atmosphere = 14.69595 psi (pounds/square inch) the conversion is 0.06804596 * PSI = atmosphere so, 35psi = 2.381609 john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:05:22 -0800 From: "Bill & Jennie" Subject: xj: Re: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! Jeff, These pics are very cool. I say that because I am in the middle of building the very same thing. It's good to know that I'm not the only one crazy enough to dream up this stuff. While my skid/crossmember is radically different, it's good to get a better idea of what it will look like. Do you know how to contact this guy? I only had 1 simple question that I couldn't answer until mine was finished. I just can't tell if the lower arm will contact the frame at full compression, where the stock LCA mount was? Obviously the mount has to be cut off, it just looks like the arm may still contact the inside edge of the frame. that means the frame will have to be notched and boxed, no big deal, I just wondered if had to be done? Bill If it was safe, it wouldn't be fun! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff" To: "Madxj" ; "xjdigest" Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 9:04 PM Subject: xj: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/afecko_99?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:51:51 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! I really don't know too much about this guy, but here is another long arm setup you might be interested in. This is Brent Ortons rig. He lives in Utah and had Jeff Beach build the HP D44 for him. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1247989&a=9570306 Here are some words from Andrew about his setup as taken from NAXJA.org: Here is some of the responses I wrote for the other list. I'll try for pictures of the whole Jeep this weeekend, crossed up. The arms are RE TJ "Extreme Duty" units trimmed 1.5". The crossmember is two 1.5"x3" .125 wall box sections welded one behind the other. The subframe is 3"x3"x1/4" wall angle. It is mounted with 4, 5/8" bolts per side. These run through sleeves (1"x.188" wall) which were welded into the "frame". I also used the threaded frame nuts for insurance. The steering is chromoly with heim ends. The track bar is mounted with RE "Extreme Duty" track bar mount at the frame end and a custom mount at the axle end (5.5" higher than stock). The drag link and track bar are perfectly parralel. I am at 5.5 inches of lift and those are my road tires, 33" Dueller AT's. I generally run 33" tsl radials for the trail. Yes, Bubba, thats an NV4500 under there. Sorry about the dark background of the pictures. I took them at 5:15 this morning. This project is not for the faint of heart. The stock lower control arm mounts have to be torched off, so there's virtually no going back. The results are phenomenal, though. the ride is as good or better than stock (less mushy). The steering is precise, 8 degrees of caster and no death wobble. And thank God, no more pesky axle steer, which made the truck change lanes under hard acceleration. The harsh, choppy ride is gone, replaced by a soft QUIET ride. I use ZJ RE springs. The 14" long shocks run out of travel before the arms do, it ramps over a thousand on a 20 degree ramp ( I ran out of Ramp). I'll try to find a 30 degree around for further testing. The short little upper control arm that attaches to the massive lower arm is threaded. It has rubber bushings at both ends. You simply undo the lower mounting bolt for the short arm and screw the bushing in or out. I actually have to do that this weekend. I mounted the arms four weeks ago and left the caster where it was with my old short arms, which was like 2 degrees to avoid the dreaded death wobble. Well, needless to say, I have no more of that nonsense, so I need to take it back to about 7 degrees of caster so it doesn't tramline on ruts in the road surface (i.e. Big Rig ruts). As far as dimensions go, my application is going to be different than yours. I would order the TJ "Extreme Duty" front kit from RE, but have them NOT weld the "all thread" and sleeve into the lower arm. Otherwise you will spend a ton of time just getting the thing apart. You will need to shorten the thing about 1.5", then weld the sleeve and all thread in. The cross member is completely custom. You will have to measure for yourself. I suppose it would be okay to use the stock member if you reinforced it in some way. The NV4500 negates the use of the stock member. The most important thing to do when building the subframe is to SPREAD THE LOAD. Unibodies are thin, and if you tighten a bolt on them, they will crush. Not to mention the stress of severe trail use. You MUST weld in sleeves for the bolts to run through. I would run at least three per side. Don't just put mounts on a stock cross member, build a reinforced subframe. It WILL tear away from the "frame". Some questions have appeared as to performance of the radius arm vs. 4 link suspension. I thought long and hard about this, because I think I could have fabbed up a 4 link almost as easily (or difficultly) as a radius arm setup. A couple of issues arose. If you do a long 4 link setup, you end up sacrificing some ground clearance at the crossmember side. The lower link would have to mount below the member and the upper mount above. Take a look above your crossmember, not much room up there. I also had limited room for an exhaust routing between the nv4500 and the arm mount. These are issues that are sort of ancillary to the main question of articulation and ride. I ramped a tj long arm kit and saw the gobs of travel and I was sold. Yes you lose caster as you flex. How fast are you going when the axle is articulated? It is a null argument, you don't need correct caster at half a mile an hour. Radius arms (ford c-clamp) style of late 70's design stressed the axle and the axle bushings because there was not much flex in the thin bushings. In my arms, I have three rubber bushings that flex to take up the twisting forces that occur during extreme articulation. Is a four link better? Maybe theoretically, but in practice the difference is minimal. I wish I could take you guys on a ride in this vehicle, the road handling and tracking would blow your mind. While articulation is improved, it's the quality of articulation that's better. When my short arms were flexed out downward the tire that was in the hole would not want to climb out. Instead it would force the axle backwards and the body up. In effect the truck was trying to drive over the axle. Ugly. This situation no longer exists. I have only tested at my local testing spot, but I live very close (30 minutes) from the Rubicon and some other great trails, so as soon as we thaw out, I'll have better test results to share. I'll have more pictures on Monday, maybe even a ramp shot. This link should take you to the discussion thread about this: http://www.naxja.org/bbs/tech.cgi?read=35295 BTW, what's this I hear about a rock crawling competition you took part in? Any pics of it or recent mods to your rig? Jeff Bill & Jennie wrote: > > Jeff, > These pics are very cool. I say that because I am in the middle of > building the very same thing. It's good to know that I'm not the only one > crazy enough to dream up this stuff. While my skid/crossmember is radically > different, it's good to get a better idea of what it will look like. > Do you know how to contact this guy? I only had 1 simple question that > I couldn't answer until mine was finished. I just can't tell if the lower > arm will contact the frame at full compression, where the stock LCA mount > was? Obviously the mount has to be cut off, it just looks like the arm may > still contact the inside edge of the frame. that means the frame will have > to be notched and boxed, no big deal, I just wondered if had to be done? > > Bill > > If it was safe, it wouldn't be fun! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff" > To: "Madxj" ; "xjdigest" > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 9:04 PM > Subject: xj: XJ with RE long arm front suspension! > > > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/afecko_99?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1085 *************************