From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 7 10:21:20 2001 From: xj-digest xj-digest Tuesday, August 7 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1221 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: FULL SIZE pictures... ;) xj: lists and JP magazine xj: Re: FULL SIZE pictures... ;) xj: Yellowstone Alart - Please support fellow OHVers! Re: xj: I still hate drum brakes... xj: Aw4 neutral start switch xj: spring install xj: Re: spring install xj: RE: lists and JP magazine - Hummer oops xj: Electrical probs....losing my mind xj: Re: lists and JP magazine xj: Hummers- PHOOEY xj: Re: spring install XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 22:17:03 -0700 From: john Subject: xj: FULL SIZE pictures... ;) >From: "Phil" >Subject: xj: Re: a splattered superdawg... >That shouldn't be hard since the pics are life-sized. ;o) rofl >Phil rofl... I spent three hours editing them down a bit, making some of them smaller... and making indexes... Do you know I started uploading at midnight and they finally finished around 2pm today!!! I'm afraid to look at the status of my hard drive on the server... ;) In the back of my mind I knew that I would hear from you on this one phil... but I was just too tired to shrink 'em down... all the time wishing I had a T-1 in my office. :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 22:34:42 -0700 From: john Subject: xj: lists and JP magazine first off... I doubt there will be much interest or following in a KJ list... except maybe to lament the passing of Jeep's best all around model ever, the XJ. I don't suspect there will be a big race to get on the WJ list... the only reason I have one is I basically got it half price... but at the rate I'm going on paying for parts to repair things... ;) (brakes, rear axle and planning on fixing the computer/key problem... brakes were really bad, rear axle had incorrect preloads set at the factory, NOT a bad or flawed design with the aluminum housed Dana 44 or the Quadradrive like I heard, that part's fine, just the factory setup... and of course when you have a vehicle that's a theft recovery you sort of expect a few challenges with the electronics... and security stuff...) Needless to say, just like an FSJ, a bargain isn't always a bargain after you get done working out the bugs that made it a bargain in the first place. ;) But I digress, the reason for this message was of course to note that the KJ is butt ugly, in fact, it looks like a dog that had it's backside shaved and taught to walk backwards... but it's so ugly that it's almost cute... rofl... Anyway, the second thing is I got a copy of JP magazine... funny, just realized I hadn't seen one in some time even though I have a fully paid subscription... and reading through it I noticed a very different tone to it. The letters to the editor got some cruel treatment... what's up with that? I know that Rick Pewe left, but man, I didn't realize how much influence he had on that publication... Anyone else notice the change in tone? and what was that long letter from a hummer owner ragging about JP magazine bragging about jeeps??? didn't he read the title of the magazine??? later, john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 00:54:24 -0700 From: "Phil" Subject: xj: Re: FULL SIZE pictures... ;) LOL, ya know all you have to do is change the resolution to half what you're using on the camera now. ;o) Then you won't have to edit them, john. Just think, cut the res in half and you can get 2x the amount of pics you do now! :o) You don't drop in quality, just the size. Bummer about the uploading though. :o( We need a shutterbug on this camping trip! Wanna come??? Phil - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" > rofl... I spent three hours editing them down a bit, making some > of them smaller... and making indexes... Do you know I started > uploading at midnight and they finally finished around 2pm today!!! > > I'm afraid to look at the status of my hard drive on the server... ;) > > In the back of my mind I knew that I would hear from you on this one phil... > but I was just too tired to shrink 'em down... all the time wishing I > had a T-1 in my office. :) > > john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:05:24 +0000 From: "Robert Bubala" Subject: xj: Yellowstone Alart - Please support fellow OHVers! *** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** Snowmobile and OHV Friends: Since the Yellowstone Park winter use settlement agreement to revisit the snowmobile ban was announced a few weeks ago, we've been enjoying a well-deserved moment of victory. Yellowstone will be open as usual next winter! We've put another battle behind us, and we are in the lead! Sadly, there are many battles left to fight, particularly in Yellowstone. Now is not the time to relax! We have beaten back the green guerillas for the moment, but, make no mistake. They are re-grouping. As I write this, they are gathering bigger and better ammunition. Their public relations and media machines are operating at full speed. They are out there 24-7, raising funds. And, yes. They are making friends in Washington DC. The steam-roller is coming back, friends. It's not a question of IF. It's a question of WHEN. Some of you may still not understand the importance of the battle for Yellowstone. Some of you might still imagine that once the other side eliminates snowmobiling in National Parks, they will leave the rest of the world in peace. NOT LIKELY!! Our opponents started this aggression in Yellowstone for a very strategic reason. Once they can prove that snowmobiles are 'not good' for Yellowstone, they can apply the same logic to every other inch of public land everywhere! This is NOT just about snowmobiles, and it's NOT just about western issues. This is about recreation across the board and across the nation - and the theatre of war we call Yellowstone may well become our Armageddon. Over the next eighteen months decisions will be made in Washington, DC that will impact upon each and every one of you. Snowmobilers, four wheelers, dirt bike and ATV Enthusiasts - even those of you who prefer to see the world on horseback will ALL be effected. If we are going to stay ahead of the environmaniacs, we need to establish a few new friends in Washington, and renew some old acquaintances. Most of all, we need to work together. Over the next months the BlueRibbon Coalition will be working with the manufacturers and other members of the snowmobile community across the nation to organize and focus off highway recreationists into one big LOUD chorus. We have lots of work to do, and we can't do it without the help of all our recreation partners: the enthusiasts themselves, the manufacturers, the media, as well as interests like lodging and other recreation service providers. Our immediate goal is to generate as many comments on the Supplemental EIS process as we can within the next two weeks. I^̉ve attached a sample letter for your use as you create your own comments. These comments must be by August 14, 2001. Please copy and paste the letter below into your own document. Add a few words of your own if you choose. E-mail it to yell_winter_use-at-nps.gov. You can also print and send it by regular mail. Winter Use Plan Superintendent's Office Grand Teton National Park P.O. Drawer 170 Moose, WY 83012 Or, email your comments to: yell_winter_use-at-nps.gov (Please copy your emailed comments to yellowstone-at-sharetrails.org) Initial comments are due by August 14, 2001. Please distribute this material far and wide! ***** August 1, 2001 Winter Use Plan Superintendent's Office Grand Teton National Park P.O. Drawer 170 Moose, WY 83012 Email: yell_winter_use-at-nps.gov Dear Madam/Sir: I was pleased to learn that a Supplemental Environmental Impact Statement (SEIS) for winter use will be conducted in Yellowstone National Park. Hopefully, emerging technology that seemed to be absent from the original Winter Use EIS will be used in this supplemental study. As technology continues to change and improve snowmobiles, concern over their historic and traditional use in places like Yellowstone will fade. By giving proper weight to the good faith efforts of the industry, and the enthusiasts, you are ensuring a more balanced process, and a good, solid decision in the end. I hope that proper management will be used as part of the SEIS^̉ solution rather than simply banning snowmobiles. As a group, we snowmobilers are happy to see necessary rules and regulations being enforced. We hope you will make this a priority since proper law enforcement can only benefit our sport and the special places we enjoy touring in winter. Please consider the benefits of encouraging dispersed snowmobile use rather than promoting visitor concentration in popular destinations like Old Faithful. Once again, thank you for revisiting the Yellowstone Winter Use EIS! I am encouraged and happy to see additional consideration given to this increasingly popular winter use of Yellowstone National Park. Sincerely, Signed___________________________________ Print Name_______________________________ Address__________________________________ City____________________State___Zip________ Email____________________________________ *** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** Robert Bubala Iron Horse 4x4s, Inc. http://home.off-road.com/~iron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) From: mark jones Subject: Re: xj: I still hate drum brakes... I haven't had a parking brake since I've owned my XJ. I'm not saying that this is a good by any means(better safe than sorry). I just always park on flat ground or next to a curb/rock/hyundai. - --- john wrote: > ...ok, do I REALLY need parking brakes?? :) > > Vince, the C clamp thing seems to be working, at > least > holding the shoes in place... > > Ben, exactly what's the procedure for throwing out > my back to > get that spring hooked??? > > I'm really close... this is a real pain and I'm > really considering pulling > the parts out and boxing them and not having them... > > who needs emergency brakes anyway, that's why we > have trees... ;) > > ok, going to keep trying... > > john > - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they > mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, > please! > - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:26:02 -0300 From: "samfans" Subject: xj: Aw4 neutral start switch What the heck is the trick to getting this thing off the shaft? Followed FSM - can't get it off the manual shaft?? Is there a way to bypass this monster for diagnostics or running full time? I'm just a little frustrated Bil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:03:08 EDT From: S1120-at-aol.com Subject: xj: spring install Well, I got one rear spring out, and installed. Got about 1" lift. Nothing broke [except for an extension that snapped, causing me to slam my face into the quater panel!!!!!!!!!] Now to do the other side. I am thinking of scabbing a leaf from the old pack, and adding it to the new one. Anyone do this? Paul Bradway 86 Cherokee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:53:19 -0300 From: "samfans" Subject: xj: Re: spring install It works well, I have been mixing and matching leaf packs for a while. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:03 PM Subject: xj: spring install > Well, I got one rear spring out, and installed. Got about 1" lift. Nothing > broke [except for an extension that snapped, causing me to slam my face into > the quater panel!!!!!!!!!] Now to do the other side. I am thinking of > scabbing a leaf from the old pack, and adding it to the new one. Anyone do > this? > > Paul Bradway > 86 Cherokee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:49:04 -0400 From: "Darren K. Page" Subject: xj: RE: lists and JP magazine - Hummer oops Speaking of Hummer owners, check out this guy trying to be like a Jeep: >http://www.bogginfreaks.com/gallery/albums/cjashowandshine/acr.mpg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren K. Page Montreal, Qc mailto:dkpage-at-videotron.ca 1990 Jeep Cherokee Sport Member of "Off-Roaders Anonymous" http://www.ora4x4.org - -----Original Message----- and what was that long letter from a hummer owner ragging about JP magazine bragging about jeeps??? didn't he read the title of the magazine??? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:04:35 -0300 From: "samfans" Subject: xj: Electrical probs....losing my mind I think I've figured that the neutral start switch is ok, the starter relay is OK...the manual leaves me with " check related wiring, bulkhead connector, and ignition switch adjustment" Check related wiring...that's helpful :-( Sooo - which is the ignition switch? Is it the one on the left (drivers) side of the column, white? There are only 2 others - a flat black thing on the right - but no "rods" attach to it. Then there's another with 2 connectors on the top, but the FSM leads one to believe the ig switch has only 1 connector. If it's the white one, what is the function of the rod that enters it - it doesn't move with the key. The only one I can see moving with the key is the little bent rod that curves up over the column and disappears from view. Also - the Ignition terminal on the starter relay - is this an in or an out - as in, does the green wire connected to it supply 12v to the starter relay or does the terminal provide 12v to the green wire ?? WTF am I doing????????????? Help Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 19:54:17 -0700 From: john Subject: xj: Re: lists and JP magazine passing this along... he let me know what some of the flap was in the last issue of JP magazine... seems that my first sense about the mag is somewhat validated. The magazine has definitely gone down hill... :( It's one thing to bad mouth a Hummer after objectively analyzing it, it's another thing to do flat out do a poor job of journalism. This is almost as bad as what Consumer Reports did to the Suzy sammys (can't spell either one of those words... sorry... ;) There are some cool things about Hummers, but I'm not planning on getting one, even if I could afford one... but I think I'd rather have a Hummer than a TJ anyway... rofl... ;) john At 08:40 PM 8/6/01 -0700, Ryan Ruck wrote: >Hi John, > >I'm a lurker on the FSJ list. I just wanted to point something out to you >regarding what you said about the Hummer owner writing a letter to JP >Magazine. First, I must point out to you that I am as much a lover of Full >Size Jeeps as I am of the Hummer so, I have no real bias one way or the >other. Second, I don't know if you have read the article that is being >talked about, but here is a link to it online: >http://www.trucktrend.com/editorial/article.jsp?id=17438 Third, I don't get >JP Magazine so, I haven't read the hummer owner's letter. > >Besides being a member of the FSJ list, I am also on the HML (Hummer Mailing >List - http://www.humvee.net - 800+ members), so I have seen both sides of >what was going on. The people over on the Hummer Mailing List thought that >the article would be an objective journalistic comparison between the Hummer >and the Jeep TJ. However many of the members of the HML were dismayed by the >opening paragraph of the article: "We feel that a Jeep TJ is a better >all-around vehicle than the Hummer is and we set out to prove it." If you >watch the "Behind the Scenes" video on the website, you can see similar >sentiment. One of the testers says for the closing line: "Of course the Jeep >won, we're JP Magazine!" Obviously this doesn't portray objective >journalism, it has a VERY large bias. This article would seem to be more of >an editorial than a comparison test. This is what caused some annoyance in >the Hummer crowd and obviously prompted a harsh letter to the editor. > >The group doing the comparison didn't even have full knowledge of what >equipment the Hummer had. This is evident by the statement in the article: >"The Torqtrac 4 (limited slips front and rear) hooked up well and made >driving the Hummer a point and shoot kind of experience." The Torqtrac 4 >isn't the limited slip differential system. The Torqtrac 4 is a computer >system that applies brakes to wheels that are slipping which results in the >locking up of the limited slip differentials. The limited slip differentials >are actually Zexel-Torsen II type differentials, not the Torqtrac 4 that JP >Magazine refers to. If they didn't fully understand the vehicle they were >testing, they couldn't have possibly written an accurate article. Here is an >interesting fact about the drivetrain, the axles are actually AMC 20 axles. >They are not the solid axles that we are used to, but instead are a heavy >duty AM General version and are independent suspension front and rear. By >the way, most owners feel that the Hummer lost off-road capability when AM >General switched to the Torqtrac 4/ABS system in 1999. They preferred the >ability to manually lock up the diffs using brake-throttle modulation >(applying the brake while accelerating) and not having a computer tell you >what to do. The military trucks, however, don't have this system and still >retain the manual system and thus are a bit more capable. > >In my opinion, both vehicles have their good points. The Jeep TJ being >cheaper, more nimble, and more customizable. The Hummer being more powerful >and tough. All I can say is you usually get what you pay for. In the Hummer >you get a total drivetrain gear reduction of 33:1! It makes about 430 ft-lb >-at- 1,800 rpm. Where as the Jeep TJ only has just over half that torque >rating. If you want a fair point-by-point comparison, go to >http://www.autosite.com, then "Make/Model/Trim", then select AM General/2001 >Hummer/2001 AM General Hummer Wagon 4 Door, then go to the "Select >Competitor" tab, then select "Please choose a vehicle to compare from a >complete list of vehicles", then go to Jeep, then 2001 Wrangler, and then >2001 Jeep Wrangler Sport. There you will see a fair comparison of not only >features, but other specifications as well. > > >Another reason that most likely prompted the letter is that in most tests, >the Hummer doesn't get a fair shake. As it turns out, a majority of people >who either do a write-up or comparison test on the Hummer do not give it >fair, un-biased reviews. Most complain about how the Hummer is louder than >most other SUVs, how the Hummer is more unconventional than most SUVs, and >how poorly the Hummer handles compared to other SUVs. There is only one >problem with this, the Hummer is NOT an SUV!! It is a TRUCK that was >originally designed for the military and was ADAPTED to civilian use. Here >is a quote from the Hummer promotional brochure: > >"It wasn't designed to fashionably tote soccer moms around town (although it >has been known to on occasion). It wasn't designed to capitalize on the >current SUV craze (although in a world overpopulated with SUVs, the Hummer >still commands attention). In fact it wasn't designed at all. It was >engineered. More specifically, it was engineered to meet the rigorous >demands of the U.S. armed forces... Save for a few creature comforts, the >civilian Hummer is basically unchanged from its military counterpart." > >Another quote: > >"The Hummer isn't for everybody" > >That last quote is probably most important. Just like we have our Full Size >Jeeps because they are powerful and unique, the same thing applies to the >Hummer. Hummer owners, just like FSJ owners, are willing to forego a quiet, >softer ride for capability and utility (with the exception of some in >Hollywood). > >One last point...If the Jeep TJ is such a superior vehicle to the Hummer, >why did the military decide to go with the Hummer? According to JP Magazine >they could have just as easily gone with TJs and modified them. But, instead >they chose the Hummer/Humvee. I wonder why :) ? > >I just thought I would try to clarify what prompted the letter to JP >Magazine from the Hummer owner and why it was probably so harshly worded. >Like I said, both Jeeps (especially FSJs) and Hummers are great vehicles. >After all, they are cousins from back in the days of Willys Jeep. > >By the way, I think that you are doing a great job with Super Dawg! Keep up >the good work. About the stereo, I really like the Sony receiver unit and >the short-wave radio feature. Good choice! > >Well, I'm sure you are busy with Super Dawg so I won't keep you any longer. >Good Luck!! > >Sincerely, >Ryan Ruck >Cincinnati, OH >1982 Cherokee Laredo 360/TF727/NP208 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:54:04 -0500 (CDT) From: JEEPHEAD93-at-webtv.net Subject: xj: Hummers- PHOOEY That guy sure did rip JP Mag. but they did deserve some of what they got. But that does not excuse the fact that guy thinks he is all mighty cause he drives a hummer. BIG FREAKIN DEAL!!! Sure a hummer is good in wide open marshes and sand dunes but get him in the rocky mountains and he will just roll down the hill. John did have a point- it is a jeep magazine. Steve J. 93 XJ-2.5 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:52:26 -0700 From: "Phil" Subject: xj: Re: spring install Heya Paul, I did this on my 95 with a known good pack and a shot pack that was on it originally. I used the second and third leaves from the worn pack and put them in with the good ones. Not only was the pack thicker (I recommend new u-bolts) but it seemed to give me about 1.5" lift with clamps on the packs. I used clamps because I'm not a fan of twisting leaves wanting to become one with my tires. :oP I have some pics of the leaves after they were assembled at: http://photos.yahoo.com/jeepxjer Good luck! Phil - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:03 PM Subject: xj: spring install > Well, I got one rear spring out, and installed. Got about 1" lift. Nothing > broke [except for an extension that snapped, causing me to slam my face into > the quater panel!!!!!!!!!] Now to do the other side. I am thinking of > scabbing a leaf from the old pack, and adding it to the new one. Anyone do > this? > > Paul Bradway > 86 Cherokee ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1221 *************************