From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Jun 2 19:09:29 2002 From: xj-digest xj-digest Sunday, June 2 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1443 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: off-topic question... xj: RE: off-topic question... xj: Re: RE: off-topic question... xj: RE: Re: RE: off-topic question... Re: xj: XJ cutting out Re: xj: XJ cutting out XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 03:41:54 -0500 From: Tom Moulder Subject: Re: xj: off-topic question... john wrote: > Quick OT question on PC's. I've got a new Sony Vaio with > Win XP home... the stupid thing crashed three times today. Nothing > appears wrong with the hardware, all things are pointing to the OS, > which I have patched from MS. What I'm wondering is whether or > not I should "upgrade" to Windows 2000 or drop back to Win98SE? > (I was looking at a Winbook catalog and they charge $99 to upgrade > to Windows 2000 from XP home... got me thinking it did... ;) It > was suggested to go with XP pro, but that costs $$$$. I have > W2K and Win98SE. > > I'd love to Linux, but after the 'mac' attack I'm going to stay > mainstream, you know, the lemming approach to computing... ;) > besides, Linux doesn't have enough USB drivers to support my addiction. > > Anyway, any off list tips, pointers and ideas would be appreciated. > > Some days I really hate computers... :( > > thanx, > john > ------------- OK, did you buy the Sony with XP Home already installed? What do you mean "patched from MS?" What else is on your computer or is it empty so that you can put whatever OS you want on it? I'm going to assume (just to save time) you had 98 SE and upgraded to XP (trying to explain "patched"). Of the three OS you have listed, W2K would be the best - even better than XP Pro. But, you are going to have to pick which OS you want and install a full version from scratch - erasing everything you have on your hard drive. This is actually a good thing (unless there were files you couldn't get off). Depending on the size of your hard drive - partition it into at least 2 partitions - the first being 2-3 GB and the rest is whatever else is left over. If you know what your plans are for the computer, you can partition it even more with about 2GB to 10GB per partition. However, if XP came on the Sony, there should be a disk that restores the computer back to it's original configuration when you bought it. If you liked the way it was set up, go this route to save time and energy. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 08:20:27 -0400 From: "Chris Wilson" Subject: xj: RE: off-topic question... Geez man how are you getting XP to crash? I've been playing with it since Beta and have only seen it actually crash twice! Are you sure it's not a hardware/driver problem? Chances are that you've got a bad driver...XP can be kinda picky about that... - --Chris Tampa XJ'er '89 4.0 Auto - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 2:14 AM To: Recipient list suppressed Subject: xj: off-topic question... Quick OT question on PC's. I've got a new Sony Vaio with Win XP home... the stupid thing crashed three times today. Nothing appears wrong with the hardware, all things are pointing to the OS, which I have patched from MS. What I'm wondering is whether or not I should "upgrade" to Windows 2000 or drop back to Win98SE? (I was looking at a Winbook catalog and they charge $99 to upgrade to Windows 2000 from XP home... got me thinking it did... ;) It was suggested to go with XP pro, but that costs $$$$. I have W2K and Win98SE. I'd love to Linux, but after the 'mac' attack I'm going to stay mainstream, you know, the lemming approach to computing... ;) besides, Linux doesn't have enough USB drivers to support my addiction. Anyway, any off list tips, pointers and ideas would be appreciated. Some days I really hate computers... :( thanx, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:00:38 -0500 From: "Mike Petersen" Subject: xj: Re: RE: off-topic question... Many times the various notebook manufactures will modify certain parts of an operating system to make it work better on their particular hardware combinations. If you bought this notebook with XP on it already then it probably had some hardware specific drivers installed that are not the first choice of XP. I have to agree with Chris that it sounds like a driver problem, as some of them can be a little twitchy at times, especially with legacy devices. Win 98SE and Win2K both have their ups and downs, but I think the best course of action would be to build a dual boot system with both on it. I used to do this when I had to have NT4 for work and wanted to have the functionabilities of Win 98 at home. Just my two cents. Mike Petersen - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Wilson" To: Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 7:20 AM Subject: xj: RE: off-topic question... Geez man how are you getting XP to crash? I've been playing with it since Beta and have only seen it actually crash twice! Are you sure it's not a hardware/driver problem? Chances are that you've got a bad driver...XP can be kinda picky about that... - --Chris Tampa XJ'er '89 4.0 Auto - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 2:14 AM To: Recipient list suppressed Subject: xj: off-topic question... Quick OT question on PC's. I've got a new Sony Vaio with Win XP home... the stupid thing crashed three times today. Nothing appears wrong with the hardware, all things are pointing to the OS, which I have patched from MS. What I'm wondering is whether or not I should "upgrade" to Windows 2000 or drop back to Win98SE? (I was looking at a Winbook catalog and they charge $99 to upgrade to Windows 2000 from XP home... got me thinking it did... ;) It was suggested to go with XP pro, but that costs $$$$. I have W2K and Win98SE. I'd love to Linux, but after the 'mac' attack I'm going to stay mainstream, you know, the lemming approach to computing... ;) besides, Linux doesn't have enough USB drivers to support my addiction. Anyway, any off list tips, pointers and ideas would be appreciated. Some days I really hate computers... :( thanx, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:21:25 -0400 From: "Darren K. Page" Subject: xj: RE: Re: RE: off-topic question... I have to agree with Chris. I am running two XP Pro systems here, and I have only managed to hang one, but no hard crash. The culprit was a bad video driver. I have a Matrox G400 Dual Head with the Rainbow Runner G-Series add-on card. The problem was with uninstalling the last supported driver for this combo for win2k. I switched to the certified driver for XP for the G400, and no more problems. The add-on card is no longer supported by Matrox for XP, and I had to fiddle a little to get it to work. I also have to agree with Mike. We have all Compaq laptops at work (HP now, I guess), and they all have Compaq specific software that interacts with their hardware i.e. power management, security settings, BIOS settings, etc.). For all of the regular users, we use the std. image that comes with it, but for all the MIS tech. staff, we each install our own system and start from scratch. For Compaq, they have white papers that go into great detail about installing the Compaq drivers and software, right down to the correct order. You might want to try researching what goes into to the Vaio, and try to see if similar support is available to you. That way you will know exactly what you have, and not depend on Sony to do it for you i.e. install XP Home manually from scratch, and then each Sony driver/software based on what you find above. Another thing, I installed Norton AntiVirus Corporate Edition 7.6 across the company. I remember reading in the docs. That Norton and the Vaio's have compatibility issues. I don't have the specifics here at home, but it is food for thought nonetheless. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren K. Page Montreal, Qc dkpage at videotron.ca 1990 Jeep Cherokee Sport Member of "Off-Roaders Anonymous" http://www.ora4x4.org - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Mike Petersen Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 12:01 PM To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: xj: Re: RE: off-topic question... Many times the various notebook manufactures will modify certain parts of an operating system to make it work better on their particular hardware combinations. If you bought this notebook with XP on it already then it probably had some hardware specific drivers installed that are not the first choice of XP. I have to agree with Chris that it sounds like a driver problem, as some of them can be a little twitchy at times, especially with legacy devices. Win 98SE and Win2K both have their ups and downs, but I think the best course of action would be to build a dual boot system with both on it. I used to do this when I had to have NT4 for work and wanted to have the functionabilities of Win 98 at home. Just my two cents. Mike Petersen - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Wilson" To: Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 7:20 AM Subject: xj: RE: off-topic question... Geez man how are you getting XP to crash? I've been playing with it since Beta and have only seen it actually crash twice! Are you sure it's not a hardware/driver problem? Chances are that you've got a bad driver...XP can be kinda picky about that... - --Chris Tampa XJ'er '89 4.0 Auto - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 2:14 AM To: Recipient list suppressed Subject: xj: off-topic question... Quick OT question on PC's. I've got a new Sony Vaio with Win XP home... the stupid thing crashed three times today. Nothing appears wrong with the hardware, all things are pointing to the OS, which I have patched from MS. What I'm wondering is whether or not I should "upgrade" to Windows 2000 or drop back to Win98SE? (I was looking at a Winbook catalog and they charge $99 to upgrade to Windows 2000 from XP home... got me thinking it did... ;) It was suggested to go with XP pro, but that costs $$$$. I have W2K and Win98SE. I'd love to Linux, but after the 'mac' attack I'm going to stay mainstream, you know, the lemming approach to computing... ;) besides, Linux doesn't have enough USB drivers to support my addiction. Anyway, any off list tips, pointers and ideas would be appreciated. Some days I really hate computers... :( thanx, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:30:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Subject: Re: xj: XJ cutting out Thanks a lot, JeepNut. I came to the same conclusion on the scan tool as well. I think the dealer is about the only way to go to get trouble codes and perform a lot of the tests that require a diagnostic tool. I do have a fuel pump module relay in the power distribution center and that could be it - but what bothers me is that the stumble and cut out does not kill the engine, and it will idle fine if I let up on the throttle or put it in neutral. This doesn't sound electrical, unless the fuel control module is getting some kind of bad or missing signal at certian throttle positions or RPM which would tell it to shut off the pump. My gauges do not react abnormally, my tach doesn't jump around like it's losing a signal. I wondered if raising my hood allowed something to cool enough to operate normally, but the cutout doesn't happen consistently at operating temperatures. The place where I first experienced this problem is close to a truck stop, and I've seen a few vehicles pull over there in the past couple of years like they suddenly lost power - I was starting to wonder if there is some RF interference that could be culprit. Obviously I'm grasping straws. I have run out of fuel three times over the past three years, so I have been concerned that my fuel pump got some damage when that happened. To add to this, when testing fuel pressure, the gauge doesn't hold a steady pressure, but the needle fluctuates rapidy - it's just a blur - from about 41 psi to 50 psi. Sometimes it does this, sometimes it doesn't, and it is not RPM or throttle position specific. That is, it can happen at idle and go away if I open the throttle, other times it will be steady at idle and fluctuate if I open the throttle. I picked up a fuel pump on Friday (three bills) and it's going in today. If anything, it will help the peace of mind about fuel starvation damage. If that doesn't work (ouch) it's going to the dealer for diagnosis. Thanks again, Terry - --- JeepNut wrote: > I just couldn't let it go... ... > All I can find online indicates that to read the codes on > your 98 you'll have to find someone with an VDB-II tool > which will read the codes out. > These types of tools cost $3000+ so usually only the dealer > has them. > If you're lucky enough to live near a Jeep-only repair > center... We used to have one around here, but they changed > hands and the new guys were a bunch of yahoos and the shop > works on nearly anything now as the Jeeper's mostly all ran > from them... > But as much trouble as it sounds like that pump is.... and > as expensive as it is, it'd be nice to be sure it was > actually the fuel pump... again, Good Luck sorting this one > out. > JeepNut > > Terry wrote: > > > > I'm not sure if the key switch cycle works in the later models. I did > try > > it, but received nothing. So either there is no code to display, or it > > doesn't work. > > > > I put a fuel pressure gauge on it today and ran it on the freeway for > about > > an hour hoping it would cut out and I could get a reading of fuel > pressure, > > but it didn't cut out on me. However, I did hear quite a bit of > pinging, > > especially on acceleration and up hills. I have 87 octane in it now, > and > > the temp was below 210. > > > > Terry > > > > --- JeepNut wrote: > > > Hi Terry, > > > I don't know about your 98 but on the 92 I can do a key > > > switch cycle to read the codes on the panel lights. Might > > > reveal a clue, even tho you say no Check Engine light, not > > > all codes set the lamp. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > > > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only > > > one... > > > '92 Cherokee > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only > one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:14:12 -0500 From: "Mike Petersen" Subject: Re: xj: XJ cutting out Anyone with a SnapOn MT2500 scan tool can read the codes in your jeep. You are not locked into the stealer for this service. Also I missed what year that you are working on, but the Auto Xray model of scanner will also read the OBD I Chrysler and OBD II computers. You can sometimes rent these from Auto Zone or some of the other chain stores. I used to have the Auto Xray but sold it and bought a snapon because it has more features. Just my two cents worth Mike Petersen - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry" To: Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: Re: xj: XJ cutting out Thanks a lot, JeepNut. I came to the same conclusion on the scan tool as well. I think the dealer is about the only way to go to get trouble codes and perform a lot of the tests that require a diagnostic tool. I do have a fuel pump module relay in the power distribution center and that could be it - but what bothers me is that the stumble and cut out does not kill the engine, and it will idle fine if I let up on the throttle or put it in neutral. This doesn't sound electrical, unless the fuel control module is getting some kind of bad or missing signal at certian throttle positions or RPM which would tell it to shut off the pump. My gauges do not react abnormally, my tach doesn't jump around like it's losing a signal. I wondered if raising my hood allowed something to cool enough to operate normally, but the cutout doesn't happen consistently at operating temperatures. The place where I first experienced this problem is close to a truck stop, and I've seen a few vehicles pull over there in the past couple of years like they suddenly lost power - I was starting to wonder if there is some RF interference that could be culprit. Obviously I'm grasping straws. I have run out of fuel three times over the past three years, so I have been concerned that my fuel pump got some damage when that happened. To add to this, when testing fuel pressure, the gauge doesn't hold a steady pressure, but the needle fluctuates rapidy - it's just a blur - from about 41 psi to 50 psi. Sometimes it does this, sometimes it doesn't, and it is not RPM or throttle position specific. That is, it can happen at idle and go away if I open the throttle, other times it will be steady at idle and fluctuate if I open the throttle. I picked up a fuel pump on Friday (three bills) and it's going in today. If anything, it will help the peace of mind about fuel starvation damage. If that doesn't work (ouch) it's going to the dealer for diagnosis. Thanks again, Terry - --- JeepNut wrote: > I just couldn't let it go... ... > All I can find online indicates that to read the codes on > your 98 you'll have to find someone with an VDB-II tool > which will read the codes out. > These types of tools cost $3000+ so usually only the dealer > has them. > If you're lucky enough to live near a Jeep-only repair > center... We used to have one around here, but they changed > hands and the new guys were a bunch of yahoos and the shop > works on nearly anything now as the Jeeper's mostly all ran > from them... > But as much trouble as it sounds like that pump is.... and > as expensive as it is, it'd be nice to be sure it was > actually the fuel pump... again, Good Luck sorting this one > out. > JeepNut > > Terry wrote: > > > > I'm not sure if the key switch cycle works in the later models. I did > try > > it, but received nothing. So either there is no code to display, or it > > doesn't work. > > > > I put a fuel pressure gauge on it today and ran it on the freeway for > about > > an hour hoping it would cut out and I could get a reading of fuel > pressure, > > but it didn't cut out on me. However, I did hear quite a bit of > pinging, > > especially on acceleration and up hills. I have 87 octane in it now, > and > > the temp was below 210. > > > > Terry > > > > --- JeepNut wrote: > > > Hi Terry, > > > I don't know about your 98 but on the 92 I can do a key > > > switch cycle to read the codes on the panel lights. Might > > > reveal a clue, even tho you say no Check Engine light, not > > > all codes set the lamp. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > > > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only > > > one... > > > '92 Cherokee > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only > one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1443 *************************