From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Oct 28 12:59:56 2004 From: xj-digest xj-digest Thursday, October 28 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1940 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: IFS vs solid axles xj: more adventures xj: Re: fsj: Re: [db] more adventures xj: Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive xj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive xj: updated web site xj: Re: 04 Rubicon - flood damaget XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:31:34 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: IFS vs solid axles this was on another list, passing it along because it's the best explanation I've seen why solid axles are better than IFS! john Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:38:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Myers IFS as you call it or a non live axle has a tendency for one wheel to be able to push up and not force the other wheel down. In the case of an area where both wheels push up you would shove a front differential into the ground. "loss of clearance" a live axle on the other hand will not let a clearance loss occur. []--#9702;----[] vs []-/ \-[] "somewhat of a comparison" A quick article that says it better than I. "not my words!" Here's why solid axles have better articulation than independent suspensions (and, therefore, why hardcore off-roaders prefer solid axles): Say your left-side wheel goes up on a rock and gets stuffed into the wheelwell. That situation has a tendency to lift the entire vehicle. With an independent suspension, the right side is unaffacted by the left side going up, meaning that if the lift is high enough, that right-side wheel will come off the ground because nothing is forcing it down as the other side goes up. The right-side wheel just sort of hangs there. Now, the same situation with a solid axle: the left side wheel goes up on the rock. When that happens, it forces the right-side wheel downward because the axle is now at an angle to horizon. That downward force compels the right-side wheel to maintain contact with the ground, even though the height of the vehicle itself has raised. The result, of course, is better traction because you've got more wheels on the ground. Solid axles also are capable of taking more abuse, making them better for towing and carrying heavy loads. (There's a reason there are no pickup trucks with an independent rear suspension.) The other side of the coin, of course, is that an independent suspension provides better ride quality. (That's the reason most cars -- and car-based SUVs -- have independent rear suspensions.) I hope that's helpful. For what it's worth my cousin has a Rodeo that can out fourwheel my jeep in most places.."better gearing and limited slips" until we get articulated.. then he's hanging wheels in the air. Hope it's cleared up for you! Ainfamous1-at-aol.com wrote: Could you guys inlighten me, as to why ifs is just not as good as a live front axle for offroad? Also why are the hard core jeepers against the trail rated press on on the new jeeps, I can't remember why the hard core's are against these two items? Thanks dixie dixiedogland.20m.com ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:44:53 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: more adventures had a power failure at work today, so we got sent home early to work remotely... so on the way I stopped at the Jeep dealer and test drove the new WK and the KJ. :) Drove the 5.7L V8 Magnum in the GC, and a 4 cyl with a 5spd in the KJ. The V8 in the GC is super smooth, very quick, but not radical. I couldn't really tell how much faster it was than a 4.7L V8. Both engines are quite smooth and responsive. Supposedly the 5.7L has some way of turning off some of the cylinders... I haven't read anything about it and the sales lady wasn't exactly a technical wizard. The EPA mileage was very close to the 4.7L, if not the same 14/19. The KJ was a 2004, bottom of the line unit. I wanted to see how the 2.4L I-4 was. It would not handle an automatic... I understand why it's not an option. :) I can also see why the 3.7L V6 seems anemic. The KJ is heavier than the WJ by about 50lbs from what I've read. The new GC is quieter and smoother than the WJ, and I also noticed that it incorporated a few of the old SJ Wagoneer features... fuel tank under the body inside the frame on the driver's side and the spare under the back bed. I'm starting to like the KJ. The 2005 reworked the grille and it doesn't have a toon town look any more, it's more like an old flat fender Jeep. The ride and handling and feel of the KJ is nimble, very much like an XJ. The only problem I can see with getting a KJ Diesel is that there are 5,800 Jeep dealerships... and word is only 5,000 Diesels will be available. :( john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: fsj: Re: [db] more adventures On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 03:44:53PM -0700, john wrote: >-->> a 4 cyl with a 5spd in the KJ. >--> >-->Interesting. I didn't know a manual was an option in a KJ. with the 2.4L that's all you can get... the '05 has a 6 speed manual or the 4 speed auto with the V6. the KJ didn't bother my back too much, but my left leg was starting to let me know it wasn't happy being near a clutch again... hadn't felt that pain since the surgery about 12 years ago. :) I better stick to autos... sure would have kept my '85 XJ with the 2.1L TD had it had an auto... I had to give up the stick. :( My 5th lumbar is not happy with clutch operation. :( >-->> off some of the cylinders... I haven't read anything about it and the sales >-->> lady wasn't exactly a technical wizard. The EPA mileage was very close >-->> to the 4.7L, if not the same 14/19. >--> >-->The Hemi got some logic (from Ma Benz) for disabling a cylinder or two >-->or whatever in order to reduce fuel consumption. Unlike the caddy 6-8-4, >-->it seems to work... for now. Time will tell, though the german v12s using >-->this technology seem mostly reliable. Forget checkbooks if they break, >-->get a second on the house :-/ yeah, that's what I was thinking too... :) I dislike that they hide the engine under a big plastic shroud... can't see all the goodies. :) >-->> The KJ was a 2004, bottom of the line unit. I wanted to see how the 2.4L >-->> I-4 was. It would not handle an automatic... I understand why it's not >-->> an option. :) I can also see why the 3.7L V6 seems anemic. The KJ >-->> is heavier than the WJ by about 50lbs from what I've read. >--> >-->The KJ's biggest problem is that it is overbuilt. Someone at Jeep decided >-->to make a tin-can rav4 that could wheel. So, like the XJ, they built the >-->bejeezus out of the unibody, and it truly weighs about 600 lbs more than it >-->needs to. it has a nice feel to it though... I actually liked the way this one felt. The bottom of the line unit didn't ride as nice as the WJ, or so it seemed... the other one I test drove a few years ago rode better... This will take a few more prolonged test drives before I plop down any serious cash... :) Not sure why I didn't care for the first one I drove, guess it's because I was spoiled with the '99 WJ with the 4.7L. But this thing had good visibility (for a modern vehicle) and just felt nimble... like an XJ, but with a nicer, quieter ride. I think I may be hooked. It's just a question of whether I'm going to be willing to spend the money... being as cheap as I am I doubt it. ;) If I sold every vehicle I owned my wife would probably let me do it... but I fear that Curtis is not going to let me sell Superdawg... :) so I'm between a rock and a hard spot... wedged between my wife and a friend with my Jeep collection. ;) >-->Interestingly enough, it's supposed to be literally a 3-4 hour job to swap >-->a 4.7L v8 into a KJ. Me, I'd prefer a 4.0, but the nose is too short on >-->the KJ for an inline six, and it would probably protrude into the >-->passenger compartment too much. there ain't no way you're parking a 4.0L under that KJ hood... not without redoing the rad support... but I'll take a look... with a tape measure. :) The 3.7L V6 is totally lost in the WJ. I've got pictures, going to write an article for FSJ magazine that will come out in the spring issue. >-->> The new GC is quieter and smoother than the WJ, and I also noticed >-->> that it incorporated a few of the old SJ Wagoneer features... fuel >-->> tank under the body inside the frame on the driver's side and the >-->> spare under the back bed. >--> >-->Interesting. How hard did it look to swap a dana 30 from an XJ/WJ/ZJ, >-->or even a bronco d44? That would solve it's wheelin problems :) not a chance, wait till you see the pictures of underneath... >-->> I'm starting to like the KJ. The 2005 reworked the grille and it >-->> doesn't have a toon town look any more, it's more like an old flat >-->> fender Jeep. The ride and handling and feel of the KJ is nimble, >-->> very much like an XJ. >--> >-->There was plenty of room to improve, though smaller engines as options >-->while adding more safety equipment (weight) is probably not a good way >-->to improve. I think the Diesel will push it around just fine... if I can get one. :( >--> >-->> The only problem I can see with getting a KJ Diesel is that there >-->> are 5,800 Jeep dealerships... and word is only 5,000 Diesels will >-->> be available. :( >--> >-->That's not going to be a viable test of small SUVs with diesels then - >-->it sounds like they're either not serious about trying, or the EPA is >-->all over them for soot and NOx. Hey, how many '91 300Ds do you see around? The Diesel market was damaged by GM in the early '80s and the vast and incomprehensible ignorance of the american population. I'm happy with my '91 300D, but it sure would be nice to have just ONE vehicle. I don't dare tow my trailer with my Benz... Hooked up the '75 J10 hydraulic dump trailer to the '83 Jimmy with the 6.2L tonight... it didn't seem real happy pulling that thing either... I either have to create a custom lightweight frame for that trailer or get a bigger truck... or sell the trailer and get a commercial dump trailer, they're almost 1,000lbs lighter than mine... seems that curtis way overbuilt this trailer... works nice, but I miss having a lightweight trailer to haul stuff around with... john >--> >-->K >--> >-->-- >-->Kevin Pekarek >-->Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >-->Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:46:29 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Chuck Balog wrote: >-->If anyone has DirecTV, they're running a continuous loop of all the >-->new GC ads and a Speed TV review of the vehicle. It's 100% >-->advertizing, but fun to watch. They take one of the Limiteds down to >-->Baja. My personal favorite quote was as they were driving through the >-->shopping area of La Jolla, the driver said, "The new Jeep Grand >-->Cherokee was designed to be just as at home in high-end shopping areas >-->as it is offroad." >--> >-->I guess so. Priced out the Limited with the Hemi, side air bags, and >-->4x4 popular equipment group (skid plates, tow hooks, etc.) and the >-->MSRP came to $39K. That's a lot for an offroad version of the Dodge >-->Magnum..... ONLY $39K? most of the GC's I've seen on the lot have stickers well into the $40's... I wonder if they have anything like this on comcast cable... :) Yes, the offroad version of the Dodge Magnum, with just a wee bit more headroom. :) It's also interesting to note that the Jeep Wagoneer was expensive in it's market, but back then it was a true leader in it's area. When the SJ model Full Size Jeep came out in November 1962 it was in a class all it's own. It was years later before the big three fielded anything close to it. Jeep has been taken over by car guys. Thankfully it's still a Jeep but really for how long... It's also amusing to me to see some of the SJ features added back in, like positioning of the fuel tank and the spare tire... although the spare tire location isn't exactly a selling point... the reason in the xj they moved it inside. Not sure what they were thinking. I was quite happy with my spare inside my Grand Cherokee. They certainly didn't add any room inside by doing that. The GC had an annoying little wobble on the road, but when pressed it responded as it should. The wobble occurred when moving the wheel a bit, but much more stable and solid feeling than say an Explorer or Blazer. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive I guess the moral of the story is... buy used... ? john On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Don White wrote: >--> >--> >-->39K doesn't sound too bad to me. My 2000 WJ Laredo was loaded and had a >-->sticker of $36,000 plus and that was in early February of 2000. If you are >-->looking to purchase a new Grand Cherokee, the good news is that sticker >-->prices are down from what they were a few years ago. Unfortunately, if you >-->are looking to sell an older WJ, you might be shocked to learn what it is >-->worth on the used car market. >--> >-->Don >--> >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "john" >-->To: "Chuck Balog" >-->Cc: "xj-list" ; ; >--> >-->Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:46 AM >-->Subject: [WJ-Grand] Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive >--> >--> >--> >-->On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Chuck Balog wrote: >--> >-->>-->If anyone has DirecTV, they're running a continuous loop of all the >-->>-->new GC ads and a Speed TV review of the vehicle. It's 100% >-->>-->advertizing, but fun to watch. They take one of the Limiteds down to >-->>-->Baja. My personal favorite quote was as they were driving through the >-->>-->shopping area of La Jolla, the driver said, "The new Jeep Grand >-->>-->Cherokee was designed to be just as at home in high-end shopping areas >-->>-->as it is offroad." >-->>--> >-->>-->I guess so. Priced out the Limited with the Hemi, side air bags, and >-->>-->4x4 popular equipment group (skid plates, tow hooks, etc.) and the >-->>-->MSRP came to $39K. That's a lot for an offroad version of the Dodge >-->>-->Magnum..... >--> >-->ONLY $39K? most of the GC's I've seen on the lot have stickers well >-->into the $40's... I wonder if they have anything like this on comcast >-->cable... :) >--> >-->Yes, the offroad version of the Dodge Magnum, with just a wee bit more >-->headroom. :) >--> >-->It's also interesting to note that the Jeep Wagoneer was expensive in >-->it's market, but back then it was a true leader in it's area. When >-->the SJ model Full Size Jeep came out in November 1962 it was in a class >-->all it's own. It was years later before the big three fielded anything >-->close to it. Jeep has been taken over by car guys. Thankfully it's >-->still a Jeep but really for how long... >--> >-->It's also amusing to me to see some of the SJ features added back in, >-->like positioning of the fuel tank and the spare tire... although the >-->spare tire location isn't exactly a selling point... the reason in the >-->xj they moved it inside. Not sure what they were thinking. I was quite >-->happy with my spare inside my Grand Cherokee. They certainly didn't >-->add any room inside by doing that. >--> >-->The GC had an annoying little wobble on the road, but when pressed it >-->responded as it should. The wobble occurred when moving the wheel a >-->bit, but much more stable and solid feeling than say an Explorer or Blazer. >--> >-->john >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >-->Yahoo! Groups Links >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >-->------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> >-->Yahoo! Autos. Everything you need to know about buying >-->or selling a car. FREE Quotes, 3600 Tours, Research, >-->Blue Book, Compare Vehicles, Buy Used >-->http://us.click.yahoo.com/kEZsdA/bwnGAA/YiGOAA/Aav0lB/TM >-->--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> >--> >--> >-->Yahoo! Groups Links >--> >--><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >--> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJ-Grand/ >--> >--><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >--> WJ-Grand-unsubscribe-at-yahoogroups.com >--> >--><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >--> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >--> >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:52:58 -0400 From: Wayne E LaMothe Subject: xj: updated web site Still a work in progress http://209.105.133.60/~superglider/index.htm Comments welcomed Wayne Wayne and Lisa, Bolton Landing, NY, http://209.105.133.60/~superglider/ 88 J10, AC, CC, PS, PB/85 XJ Wagoneer Limited 66 Ambo 990 Wagon, AC, PS, PB, PW, Apollo Yellow woody 69 Ambo Coupe, 401, M12 01 FLHTCI-too much chrome ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:55:42 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: 04 Rubicon - flood damaget dealers, mechanics and insurance companies just total a submerged vehicle... bearings, wiring, clutchs, and so on get all messed up. I wouldn't be a afraid to fix it... but I'm not normal either. :) I'd probably replace the starter, not rebuild it. But not until after I took it apart, cleaned it and tried it again. :) If something fails, it would be easier and less time consuming to just replace it. Unless the budget is very constrained of course. It's unlikely the engine or trans or xfr case or even the axles were affected or damaged. Most of the wiring will probably be fine. Just work your way through it... john On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Tom Collins wrote: >-->Can't help you on this one but I'm forwarding it to John Meister & Jim >-->Blair. >-->Tom Collins >--> >-->Rdpaul01-at-aol.com wrote: >--> >-->> Not sure if you can help? My Jeep Rubicon (04) was pretty much submerged >-->> by flood waters this fall. Where do I start to rebuild this thing? I had >-->> water up above the dash. Still looks good but everything has mud and >-->> sand. I have started cleaning everything. Disconnecting all harnesses >-->> etc. I have pulled and cleaned every connection I can find and treated >-->> with contact cleaner and white grease. I have dropped all fluids and >-->> flushed systems. Where do I go from here? Ignition seems to be bad. It >-->> had and grit everywhere. The starter motor seems to be locked. Should I >-->> replace or have it rebuilt? I think the engine is OK as it turns freely >-->> on the flywheel. Looking for any suggestions wiring diagrams etc. My >-->> local dealer is an ass. They seem to know less than I do, which is not >-->> much. All they wanted to do was trade me out of it for pennies. They >-->> said it was junk. I know they didn't even open the hood, as I had it >-->> wire tied. They couldn't even free the ignition which I did in minutes. >-->> >-->> Your suggestions would be welcomed. I am not going to give up! >-->> >-->> Roger Paul >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1940 *************************