From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Nov 10 07:28:33 2004 From: xj-digest xj-digest Wednesday, November 10 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1956 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: temptations and Diesel dreams... xj: Re: Re: the new Grand Cherokee... the Toured, and a Passat xj: Re: temptations and Diesel dreams... xj: RE:Temptations and Diesel dreams Re: xj: RE:Temptations and Diesel dreams xj: "popcorn poll"... vote early and often... which engine? xj: Re: "popcorn poll"... vote early and often... which engine? xj: the popcorn poll... update XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:22:01 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: xj: temptations and Diesel dreams... A: I already had a 4.0L bolted into my '84 J10 (didn't have time to hook up the EFI and then I needed the motor for my Comanche) By the upcoming summer, I will have my motor built and put into action before the Ouray FSJ 2005 invasion. From: Bob Subject: Re: xj: temptations and Diesel dreams... Hmm.... How about making a deal with Dan for the "exo-xj" and putting the diesel in that? I still like the '96 4.0 for SuperDawg. "Ain't never noone never done that 'round these parts before" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:27:35 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: xj: Re: Re: the new Grand Cherokee... the Toured, and a Passat A: I'm only going to have about 1/2 that into my J10 when I'm done, and it'll be far more capable than the Rubicon for everyday things besides offroading! On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Bear wrote: >-->What do you think about the rubican? http://www.jeep.com/wrangler/models/rubicon.html cool.... Dana 44's fore & aft... limited/locking axles, 4wd discs... coils are fine, makes it somewhat easier to lift... 4.0L, sweetest motor ever put in a Jeep. I'd say two thumbs up. This looks like a winner. Real axles, a solid motor, and a legendary body style. I've driven some of the newer Wranglers, but I haven't been a fan of bob tails before, but this does seem like a good Jeep, and far better than the KJ or the WK(?) or whatever they're calling the Dodgized(bast....zed) version of the Grand Cherokee... However, for the bucks, I'd say start out with the SE and build it yourself. Although I don't think you can add the Dana 44 axles... :( http://www-5.jeep.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp Upgrade to the 4.0L and buy your own lockers... compare the details of what the Rubicon offers and check aftermarket components. Even buying used axles and doing the swap might cost less than buying the "special"... The Rubicon lists at $28k, and for that you could buy a nice XJ and spend some money on upgrading it, or even a WJ, although a WJ wouldn't be as good offroad as the XJ. XJ's can be setup to perform better than a stock TJ with more comfort and convenience. It's been said many times before, Jeeps are built, not bought... maybe it's because real Jeepers can't afford to buy a brand spankin' new Jeep and trash it... so we buy what we can afford, build it to do what we want, THEN trash it. :) Either way, getting a 4.0L I-6 in anything with a Jeep badge is a good move. Unfortunately the wizards at DC have opted to move to the pathetic 3.7L V6, I drove one in a KJ and found it quite anemic. The 4.0L I-6 in my '99 WJ is quite acceptable. The 3.7V6 is a derivative of the 4.7L V8, which is one of the sweetest V8's I've ever owned, worked on or driven. If I had the bucks and wasn't concerned about fuel economy I'd be dropping a WJ driveline into my '83 J10 instead of a '96 XJ 4.0L driveline. :) I'll take a closer look at the TJs. Might even test drive one... like I said, never had a bobtail... tried to look at one that had a Diesel conversion, but never met up with the guy... If I could find one with a Diesel that had the creature comforts I'd get it... :) let me know if you get one of these things! :) john >-->On 10/22/04 12:04 AM, "john" wrote: >--> >-->> Got my invite in the mail to see the new Grand Cherokee, so I made >-->Thank you for your time and consideration... >--> >--> >-->Bear >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:56:06 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: xj: Re: temptations and Diesel dreams... A: I am seriously looking at a diesel Toyota swap into an XJ. I found a place in Florida that sells used motor/trans combos. (he's watching for a Landcruiser 1HT/auto setup for me, but has a 4 cyl Toyo diesel right now. I found one of the 4 cyl toyota diesels local for cheap I'll snag if I have the extra money. 250,000 miles of good service so far and it's body fell off the frame from rust due to boat launching!) I figure -at-30 mpg and it'll handle straight veggie oil, which I can stand the smell of better than diesel! popcorn ready? ;) ..a friend is serious about buying my '91 300d. Even offered his '79 300cd and full price on my Benz (he hates car shopping...) Anyway... sitting here with a car payment on the '99 WJ and a few "extra" sets of wheels... (can you hear the gears turning in my head... sorry, need to lube them... ;) So, I talked to my wife about some of my ideas... ..vetoed the Benz on the Jimmy idea (no surprise)... but she liked the idea of me getting another Jeep Cherokee (XJ) and even converting it to Diesel... So, the current (but oh so random, and incomplete) thought is to sell off everything except the WJ and Superdawg, drive the '79 300cd until I can build a Diesel XJ (Cherokee), and then sell the '79 300CD. ..If I were a rich man I'd buy a new Diesel Toureg or the Diesel KJ... ..but I'm simply not willing to spend more on a vehicle that will depreciate faster than the US dollar under Jimmy Carter than I have for more than one house I've owned... :) Call me cheap, it's ok, I'm Bohemian... grandparents came over from Prague... :) Paying $60k for a vehicle and selling it for $16k four or five years later is best left to folks with doctorates. ;) Anyway... I've got until Monday night to decide if I want to part with Shadowfox... A Diesel Cherokee would be nice and feasible... I like sitting up in traffic... the XJ is nimble, practical... I like the feel... I know them well... best all around Jeep ever made. This is a tough decision... Limited time offer even. :) Big question is going to be how am I going to mate a Mercedes 3.0L Turbo Diesel to an Aisin Warner 30-80LE (4speed automatic)? I think I want to retain the Jeep driveline... cost is an issue of course or we wouldn't be reading this email right now. ;) The conversion could easily cost $3k to do correctly. Anyway, some math to consider: at 300 miles per week:(4.3 wk/mo) - -------------------------------------------- '91 300d 30mpg 2.39/gal - $23.90/wk - $1,233.24/yr - baseline - -------------------------------------------- '79 300CD 25mpg 2.39/gal- $28.68/wk - $1,479.88/yr - delta: $246.64/yr XJ Diesel 25mpg 2.39/gal- $28.68/wk - $1,479.88/yr - delta: $246.64/yr '83 Jimmy 20mpg 2.39/gal - $35.85/wk - $1,849.86/yr - delta: $616.62/yr XJ gas 17 mpg 2.15/gal - $37.94/wk - $1,957.70/yr - delta: $724.46/yr '99 WJ 15 mpg 2.15/gal - $43.00/wk - $2,218.80/yr - delta: $985.56/yr SJ 12 mpg 2.15/gal - $53.75/wk - $2,773.50/yr - delta: $1,540.26/yr - -------------------------------------------- The problem is, WHAT is it going to cost to get a good 3.0L TD and a nice well equipped Jeep Cherokee? If it costs $1,500 then it would take two years to recover the investment... not counting time and bartering or labor costs... Of course playing musical motors comes to mind... let's see, take the 3.0L TD out of the '83 300d, rebuild it... at least a grand... :( Then pull the 3.0L naturally aspirated out of the '79 and put it in the '83 and send it down the road... get the XJ, pull the 4.0L and drop it into the '79 300CD and make a nice clean sleeper... then put the rebuilt 3.0L into the Xj. Ok, all that would probably cost about $2k give or take a K and would take oh... about six years... :) Dreams, dreams... reality can really take a bite out of dreams... Do I pay now, or pay later? But hey, y'all had that popcorn just sitting there going stale... what a travesty for that to go to waist, er, waste... ;) I figure the Lord will return before I get my vehicle situation figured out where it meets my objectives. :) If I sell my benz and just buy a "normal" cherokee... I'll spend about $700 a year more in fuel... but I will have eliminated a major part of the balance on the WJ in the process... oh wait, I have to BUY the XJ first... Of course if I get another XJ it has to have a 3" lift($300 or so), 31's ($450), a nice stereo, Aussie Bull Bar... :) kaching... I think I just spent enough to buy my '91 300D again... Of course if I just drove the '79 300CD and didn't buy an XJ, waited for SuperDawg to be completed to have a nice Jeep... then I'd only be spending about $600 a year, maybe, in extra fuel, but would have pretty much eliminated the car payment. hmmm... Of course a '79 300CD is really, really, really slow... Thanx for letting me "think" out loud... (I am glad that I'm able to make some of you feel sane... glad to help ;) I need to pencil out some more numbers... no, no, I need to get some sleep, that day job thing comes around again in the morning... and THAT, is a GOOD thing... :) john current situation: '91 300D 2.5L TD '83 Jimmy 6.2L Diesel - for sale '83 300D - for sale '75 J10 Hydraulic dump bed trailer - for sale? '83 J10 stepside (under renovation) '78 J10 & '67 J100 paying for Superdawg restoration... http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html so would a '99 WJ & '79 300CD with a way overdue '83 J10 work as a paid for fleet??? this question and many others may never be answered... ;) ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:04:19 -0800 From: "Carl Norman" Subject: xj: RE:Temptations and Diesel dreams Hey John I like your 3.0l diesel in an XJ Idea. I have heard the the AW-4 doesn't like to be behind any engine other than the 4.0l and saw the Advanced Adapters doesn't make adapters to hook the AW-4 up any engine because of that. But to solve this if it did become an issue I have been messing around with the idea of creating a manual shifter for the AW-4 simply by by passing the computer and making a custom electronic shift lever that by passes the normal shift lever. I have been constantly using my 2nd gear switch and it is extermely useful to have nearly full control over what gear you are in. My only issue is the fact that the shifter is so far forward and odviously not designed like the stick in a manual would be. Also I dont know what the 3.0ldiesel's oilpan looks like but a guy on naxja has also been trying to convert his xj to use a mercedes desiel and he was having trouble because the front axle could not articulate with out hitting the oil pan. Apparently the desiel's oilpan has the drop down in the front instead of the back like the 4.0l. And Just remeber John Just Empty Every Pocket :) PS: awsome pictures of the Mark's mercedes - -Carl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:27:38 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: RE:Temptations and Diesel dreams I think the problem with the AW4 is the computer controls with the engine. But the AW4 is used by Toyota and Lexus, so with some research it could be figured out. You're right about the oil pan... that's what mark hit too. :) I have a 6.2L V8 Diesel in my '83 GMC Jimmy... it's mated to a 700r4... that should drop right into my J10... :) decisions, decisions. :) john On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Carl Norman wrote: >-->Hey John I like your 3.0l diesel in an XJ Idea. I have heard the the AW-4 >-->doesn't like to be behind any engine other than the 4.0l and saw the >-->Advanced Adapters doesn't make adapters to hook the AW-4 up any engine >-->because of that. But to solve this if it did become an issue I have been >-->messing around with the idea of creating a manual shifter for the AW-4 >-->simply by by passing the computer and making a custom electronic shift lever >-->that by passes the normal shift lever. I have been constantly using my 2nd >-->gear switch and it is extermely useful to have nearly full control over what >-->gear you are in. My only issue is the fact that the shifter is so far >-->forward and odviously not designed like the stick in a manual would be. >--> >-->Also I dont know what the 3.0ldiesel's oilpan looks like but a guy on naxja >-->has also been trying to convert his xj to use a mercedes desiel and he was >-->having trouble because the front axle could not articulate with out hitting >-->the oil pan. Apparently the desiel's oilpan has the drop down in the front >-->instead of the back like the 4.0l. >--> >-->And Just remeber John Just Empty Every Pocket :) >--> >-->PS: awsome pictures of the Mark's mercedes >--> >-->-Carl >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:25:41 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: "popcorn poll"... vote early and often... which engine? "popcorn poll"... cast your vote... vote early and often... ;) Should "SuperDawg" (john's '83 J10 stepside, previously powered by a 4.2L I-6 gas engine) be refitted with: A_ - a '96 4.0L HO engine with Aisin Warner 4speed AT (original plan, have all parts) B_ - an '83 6.2L Diesel with 700r4 (in the GMC Jimmy, have all parts) C_ - a yet to be determined Diesel... (unknown source/cost) D_ - a free WJ 4.7LV8 (can you provide it? If so, your vote wins. ;) Objective: Economy, luxury(quiet), comfortable ride, longevity and the ability to tow my '75 J10 Hydraulic dump Trailer (weights 1990lbs empty). (I will consider selling the J10 trailer and replacing with a commercial version that weighs less...) I would like one vehicle that does it all... but keeping the '91 300D as a daily driver and having the J10 separate is a harsh and probable reality. :) The J10 would need to get at least 20mpg to make it a daily driver... thanx, and pass the popcorn. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:12:17 -0500 From: "Don Hansen" Subject: xj: Re: "popcorn poll"... vote early and often... which engine? "A" all the way!!!! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 12:25 PM Subject: xj: "popcorn poll"... vote early and often... which engine? > "popcorn poll"... > > cast your vote... vote early and often... ;) > > Should "SuperDawg" (john's '83 J10 stepside, previously powered by > a 4.2L I-6 gas engine) be refitted with: > > A_ - a '96 4.0L HO engine with Aisin Warner 4speed AT (original plan, have all parts) > B_ - an '83 6.2L Diesel with 700r4 (in the GMC Jimmy, have all parts) > C_ - a yet to be determined Diesel... (unknown source/cost) > D_ - a free WJ 4.7LV8 (can you provide it? If so, your vote wins. ;) > > > Objective: Economy, luxury(quiet), comfortable ride, longevity and > the ability to tow my '75 J10 Hydraulic dump Trailer (weights 1990lbs empty). > (I will consider selling the J10 trailer and replacing with a commercial > version that weighs less...) > > I would like one vehicle that does it all... but keeping the '91 300D as a daily > driver and having the J10 separate is a harsh and probable reality. :) The > J10 would need to get at least 20mpg to make it a daily driver... > > thanx, > and pass the popcorn. > john > > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:24:46 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: the popcorn poll... update votes are popping along... ;) it's leaning in the favor of the 4.0L, but the 6.2L isn't far behind... estimates on fuel economy with the 4.0L are teens to 20's. with the 6.2L I know I can expect 19-20mpg, maybe a bit more... the benefit of the 6.2L is the option of waste vegetable oil... the J10 has dual tanks... and the 6.2L has a "friendly" injection pump. My '91 300d is not a system I intend to experiment with... The 4.0L would be an easier conversion, after all I'm swapping out a Jeep 4.2L for a Jeep 4.0L. Other than having to completely rewire the vehicle it's pretty much a slam dunk... more or less... ;) I like the idea of the 6.2L (or ANY Diesel)... but I also like the 4.0L. I've had four or five of them with over 200,000 miles... I even had one that had been run out of oil... and it still ran... I purposely set out to get another WJ with the 4.0L for economy, and showed my wife that the difference between the 4.7L and the 4.0L wasn't that extreme when it came to acceleration. The 4.0L does quite well... and I suspect it'll do fine in the J10 as well... The J10 weighed in around 4,100lbs, the WJ is around 3,900lbs. Most XJ's weigh in around 3,400-3,800lbs. depending on how much hardware you hang on 'em. :) The 4.0L though also suffers from blow-by... and oil leaks, mainly with the rear main seal... The 6.2L is a big heavy slow winding motor that does "ok". It's not a racer, but it's reliable. This is my second one. The Cummins BT4 is not a likely candidate at this point because I don't have one and no money to get one... So the race is between the 4.0L & 6.2L that I have... I think if I were to say which of my engines is better I'd have to say the 4.0L is in better overall shape, but both engines are pretty much "unknown" as I haven't driven either extensively... thanx for all the input... now, if someone buys either my '83 GMC Jimmy, or my 4.0L drivetrain, well, by golly, that certainly would help me make up my mind now wouldn't it? ;) later, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #1956 *************************