xj-digest Wednesday, June 15 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2115 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: XJ's on Propane ?? xj: administrivia: notes on using this list xj: FS: 1998 Jeep Cherokee XJ Sport Re: xj: XJ's on Propane ?? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:43:31 -0400 From: "Daugherty, Walter W. \(Laser\)" Subject: xj: XJ's on Propane ?? I think John mentioned there was someone on the list who had done this.... Has anyone here actually done a conversion and kept the Engine Computer in place? Ideally, I would like to keep the existing fuel system intact and be able to switch over from regular gasoline to LPG. Is this feasible ?? Expensive ?? Stupid ?? (may not be very cost effective) Thanks in advance, Bill-93XJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:05:00 +0000 From: Richard Welty Subject: xj: administrivia: notes on using this list Digest.Net mailing list "Meta FAQ" These general notes on using Digest.Net mailing lists are posted on the 1st and 15th of each month. This file may be found on the web at http://www.digest.net/general-notes.txt [last revised 5/1/02; removed list of spam strings, as i'm not the only one filtering on them -- rpw] Additional information on Digest.Net's spam policies may be found at http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html and http://www.digest.net/blocked.html Table of Contents 1. Why don't my postings go through? 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? 3. How do I post to the list? 4. Where are the archives? 5. What other lists are on digest.net? 6. Is there a web subscription form? 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? 8. How do I contact the server adminstrator in an emergency? 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? The Meta-FAQ 1. Why don't my postings go through? There are several things that may interfere with postings making it to the list. a) Are you a member? Some read the ftp archives rather than receiving the list in email. Persons who read the list via email are automatically members, but readers of the FTP archive are not, and need to contact me (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) and get your name added to the list of "permitted senders". b) has your email address changed? some of you have had changes in your email address. your old address still works, and is still on the list, but your From: line shows a new address. this can happen for various reasons; you may have changed jobs or ISPs, and left a forward in place, or your IT staff may have fiddled with the email system. you will need to unsubscribe your old email address and subscribe the new one. this may require my involvement, if you can't figure out a way to get your old address off the list using the conventional majordomo commands. you can use the majordomo "which" command to probe for old addresses. send a message to majordomo-at-digest.net with one or more which commands in the body, one per line. to check for potential addresses for Fred Flinstone, formerly of bedrock.org, the following commands can be sent: which flintstone which bedrock note that the matches above might return any of the following addresses, if they appear in the list (in other words, you can use vagueness and incompleteness in your recollection as a tool): Fred.Flinstone-at-bedrock.org fflinstone-at-wilma.bedrock.org flintstonef-at-bedrock.com c) do you have more than one email address? if so, only the subscribed addresses can post, unless you contact me (see 1.a) above for relevant information) d) are you using (intentionally or accidentially) special "features" of your mail client? [this section is no longer operative, as the demime software now strips html, attachments, rich text format, etc. from postings automatically.] e) are your posts too large? there is a 10,000 character limit on posting sizes; this is done for various reasons. you can always split up large postings to get mail through. f) are you including majordomo commands at the start of your message? administrivia control is turned on; this is a trap for things like "unsubscribe" at the start of a message. try to avoid obvious majordomo commands in the subject and the first 10 lines, or misspell them in obvious ways (e.g. unzubscribe, 1ndex, h3lp, g3t, etc.) g) are you triggering spam traps? some things are red flags; for example, many phrases found commonly in spam are automatically blocked. h) are you using "funky" character sets? [7 bit restriction lifted experimentally on 8/2/00 -- film at 11] unfortunately, there are "issues" if i permit any character set other than old fashioned 7 level ASCII; therefore, you need to avoid national character sets that include various accents, umlauts, national currency characters such as the British pound symbol, etc. i) are you unintentionally including complete digests in your reply? You need to check and make sure you cut down replys to the minimal size; digests are between 20,000 and 25,000 characters in length, and if you include a complete digest in your reply, it clearly won't make the 10,000 character limit. By the way, this feature is intentional. j) Are you using a "bad" ISP or mail relay? See http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html for more information about Digest.Net policies about email. k) Is the error message you get back "User Unknown"? If so, you may be running afoul of spam control severices (again, see http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html) When these services register a hit, the error code 550 is returned. 550 is a generic code that many broken mail systems report as "user unknown". The "rejectlog" entries for the previous day's mail traffic on digest.net may be viewed at http://www.digest.net/rejectlog.01 Some of you may find it useful or instructive to use the telnet program to connect directly to port 25 on krusty-motorsports.com and see what kind of reply you get; this requires some technical knowledge and is not for everyone (you can get out of this at anytime after the initial banner simply by typing quit and hitting enter.) l) Is SMTP over TLS involved? This is a bit esoteric, but as of 8/8/01 the digest.net mail server will attempt to use "TLS" (Transport Layer Security) for outbound mail if the destination mail server offers it. SMTP over TLS is fairly new technology, and a bit buggy. I am monitoring the logs on the server, and when I see TLS related problems, I manually place the problem destinations on a special exception list; however, this may delay email to the destination host until I make the exception. 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? a) are you using the right address? send to majordomo-at-digest.net, and the command format is unsubscribe list-name my-email-address b) has your email address changed? majordomo has no way of knowing that Fred.Flinstone-at-BarneyCo.com was once fflintstone-at-bedrock.org. you can check this with the which command (see 1.b) above for details) 3. How do I post to the list? You may use either one of two addresses: for example, the bmw-digest may be reached using either bmw-at-digest.net or bmw-digest-at-digest.net If you are using the correct addresses and your posts don't show up, check out the stuff in 1. above. 4. Where are the archives? see ftp://ftp.digest.net/ for digest archives. the web archives have proven problematic, and are awaiting time for a systematic attack on the problems they've been having. 5. What other lists are on digest.net? see http://www.digest.net/ for more information. 6. Is there a web subscription form? Yes, recently added. go to http://www.digest.net/bin/digest-subs.cgi 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? The Krusty Motorsports server (aka, digest.net) was explicitly to provide for efficient management of the various automotive mailing lists, done the way that the owner of the server wanted it done. Any migration off of the server (which is already bought, paid for, and configured) would create any number of issues. 8. How do i contact the Server Administrator in an emergency? If my regular email address (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) isn't working for you, you can fall back on rwelty-at-suespammers.org 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? Krusty Motorsports (http:/www.krusty-motorsports.com/) is a business which is owned and operated by Richard Welty (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com). Krusty is an S-Corporation in the State of New York. Krusty provides a number of Internet related services, such as mailing list, web sites, pop3/telnet accounts, and consulting on internet related issues. For more information, see the web site. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:57:25 -0400 From: "Paul Wright" Subject: xj: FS: 1998 Jeep Cherokee XJ Sport Hey all, Selling my 1998 XJ, 115,000 miles - no longer drive it, don't have the time the fix up as I picked up a 97 ZJ. Here's what's wrong with it as I know it, not looking to dupe anyone....... Power steering leak in one of the lines - just happened, I know where it is, just haven't fixed it since I am not driving it Electric fan does not kick in A/C has a leak somewhere - holds a charge for approx 2 months at a time Lots of surface rust on parts - came from a beach community in MA - that's the reason I was told for the rust??? . carfax report didn't show any issues with the title Shimmy at 60mph -- haven't checked out why CD player doesn't always work. Numerous dings and scratches I used to drive to work 44 mile round trip commute for 6 months... Has the 8.25 rear, 5-speed manual, all power controls, cruise. Pics located at: http://www.carad.com/eBaymotors/viewPhotos.cfm?listing=996193 Still posted from original seller in MA that I bought from on ebay - will take more pics if requested of certain areas, answer any other questions if I can. Haven't set a price as of yet, will entertain most offers - located in South NJ - about 8 miles outside of Philadelphia PA. Have a good one, Paul Build Sheet: M5C3 Seats - Cloth High-Back Bucket ADAP Light Group APAS Monotone Paint ARWP Sport Decor Group AWHP Power Equipment Group A19P 4.0L Engine(ERH)/5Sp Man Trans(DDQ) BAUS Alternator - 117 Amp BCDS Battery - 500 Amp Maintenance Free BGAS Brakes - Power Front Disc/Rear Drum CADP Seats - High Back Bucket CBWP Door Trim Panel - Highline CDBS Seats - Reclining Front CFMS Seat - Rear Folding CGGS Seat Belt Buckle - Traveling Inboard CGWS Air Bags - Front, Next Generation** CKAS Carpets - Floor and Cargo Area CKNS Carpet - Cargo Compartment CKTS Cargo Tie Down Loops CKXS Liftgate Trim Panel - Plastic CLEP Floor Mats - Front & Rear CSAP Spare Tire Cover CSRS Assist Handles - Passenger CSSS Assist Handle - Lift Gate CUFS Console - Full Length Floor DBBC Transmissions - All Manual DDQ Transmission - 5-Speed Manual DHNS Command-Trac Part Time 4WD System DJHS Axle - Front, Dana M30/181MM DMMP Axle Ratio - 3.07 DRAS Axle - Rear, Corporate 8.25 EAAC All Engines ERH Engine - 4.0L Power Tech I-6 GAL Glass - Deep Tint Sunscreen GBBS Windshield Glass - Tinted GCBS Glass - Front Door Tinted GEEP Glass - Deep Tint Sunscreen Liftgate GFA Defroster - Rear Window GNAS Mirror - Rear View, Day/Night GNCP Sun Visors - Illum Vanity Mirrors GTZP Mirrors - Manual Remote GVBC All Vehicles W/Power Mirrors GXMP Keyless Entry - Remote HAAP Air Conditioning HGDS Insulation Group - Deluxe JAYP Instrument Cluster w/Tach JBFP Bezel - Instrument Panel, Black JCDS Speedometer - 100 MPH Primary JHAS Windshield Wipers - Var Intermittent JHBP Wiper/Washer - Rear Window JJAS Lighter - Cigar JJBS Horns - Electric, Dual Note JJJS Power Outlet - Auxiliary 12V JPAP Windows - Power JPBP Locks - Power KDPS STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING COLOR KGPS STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING/COLOR KRPS STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING COLOR KTPS STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING/COLOR KVNP STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING/COLOR KYPP STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING/COLOR K2ZP STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING/COLOR K3ZS STRIPE/BADGE/MOLDING/COLOR LAJS Warning Chimes - Headlamps On LAPP Warning Lamp - Shift Indicator LBBP Lamps - Courtesy LBCS Lamp - Glove Box LCDP Lamps - Map/Dome Reading LDAP Lamp - Underhood LDBP Lamp - Cargo Compartment LHDP Headlamp Off Time Delay LMAS Headlamps - Halogen LNJ Fog Lamps LPSS Lamp - Center Hi-Mount Stop MB1P Bumper - Front Black MB5P Bumper - Rear Black MCAS Bumper Guards - Front MDAP Bracket - Front License Plate MFFP Grille - Black MHAS Windshield Moldings - Black MMCS Moldings - Door Upper Frame MMGS Moldings - Belt MMKS Molding - Drip Trough, Body Color MNAS Door Handles - Black MWGP Roof Rack NAE Emissions - California NBKS EVAP Control System NBTP Transitory Low Emission Veh (TLEV) NFAS Fuel Tank - 20 Gallon w/Tethered Cap NHM Speed Control PQ7 Gunmetal Pearl Coat QQ7S Gunmetal Pearl Coat RAAC All Radio Equipped Vehicles RAZ Radio - AM/FM Cassette, Compact Disc RCRP Speakers - Four RDDP Antenna - Fixed SBAS Steering - Power Rack and Pinion SCGP Steering Wheel - Leather Wrapped SDAS Suspension - Normal Duty SHAS Stabilizer Bar - Front SHCS Stabilizer Bar - Front and Rear SUAP Steering Column - Tilt TBCS Spare Tire - Compact TBLS Spare Tire - Inside Mount TRLP Tires - P225/75R15 Wrangler RT/S AT TZAP Goodyear Brand Tires WJ5P Wheels - 15 x 7.0 Full-Face Steel WLYC Wheels - Steel XCYS Upgraded OBD-II Connectors XJFS Tethered Fuel Filler Cap YAAS Build To U S Market Specifications YGFA 8 Additional Gallons of Gas ZFJP Spring - Left Front ZFUP Spring - Left Rear ZUJP Spring - Right Front ZUUP Spring - Right Rear Z5BS Payload Rating - 1800# 1AAS U.S. Dealer Retail 131S Zone 31-Boston 2TJA Customer Preferred Package 2TJ 25J Customer Preferred Package 25J 3VVA Customer Preferred Discount 4EA Sold Vehicle 57F Status D to D1 Less 100% 622S Massachusetts State Code 922S Massachusetts State Code ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:07:10 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: xj: XJ's on Propane ?? At 01:43 PM 6/14/2005 , Bill-93XJ wrote: >>Has anyone here actually done a conversion and kept the Engine Computer in >>place? Ideally, I would like to keep the existing fuel system intact and >>be able to switch over from regular gasoline to LPG. Is this feasible?? >> >>Expensive ?? Stupid ?? (may not be very cost effective) I have done a number of propane conversions. I have not done one on an XJ. But I am thinking about it. I am looking for a gaseous fuel injector that I can use to replace the liquid fuel injectors. I would like maintain the closed loop control and continue to use the EFI on propane. But I have not found one yet. But with a typical conversion I would turn off the fuel pump and fuel injectors (using a relay) and turn on the propane valve at the same time. That shuts down the gasoline flow and initiates the propane flow, all with one switch. A Garretson KN zero governor (secondary regulator) can be plumbed through a valve directly into the air inlet (between the air cleaner and throttle body). An idle bypass goes from the inlet to the secondary regulator, through a small valve and into the throttle body air inlet. Adjust the two valves as you would adjust the idle and main jets on a carb. The primary regulator is attached to the propane tank and connected to the secondary regulator through an electric cut-off valve. If you are running in cold weather you will need to use a heated vaporizer as the primary regulator and a liquid feed propane tank. Due to the high rate of fuel consumption the tank and primary regulator tend to ice up. An electric cutoff valve must be attached to the outlet of the primary regulator and must be powered from the circuit that would normally power the fuel pump. This is a safety issue. The propane valve can only be open when the engine is actually running. If the valve is left open, the idle feed will allow gas to continue to flow and create a danger of explosion. If you planing on using propane most of the time it is a good idea to close the gaps on the spark plugs to about .025". Propane sparks at a higher voltage so it puts more stress on the ignition system if you dont re-gap the plugs. Its not a stupid idea but it is not especially cost effective either. Propane is nearly as expensive as gasoline these days. Taking into account the cost of conversion you are not likely to save much. But there are other reasons for doing a propane conversion. Propane is a lot cleaner. Much easier on the engine. Safer for off-road use. Higher octane. Does not spoil when stored for very long periods of time. Here are some sources for parts: http://www.propane-generators.com/ - Parts & Kits http://www.propanecarbs.com/ - Pieces and parts http://www.gotpropane.com - Conversion kits If you can find a local shop that repairs fork trucks you may be able to find used parts that will work quite well. Dave PS. Here are some interesting conversion factors: - - 04/05/2005 ------------------------- NG *1.19 -at- $0.913/ccf = $1.09/gal gas Gas *1.00 -at- $2.25/gal = $2.25/gal gas LP *1.37 -at- $1.38/gal = 1.81/gal gas El *36.62 -at- $.095/kwh = 3.47/gal gas Gasoline - 1 Gal 125,000 BTU Hydrogen - 1 CCF = .22 Gal Gasoline (*4.55) 27,500 BTU Ethanol - 1 Gal = .61 Gal Gasoline (*1.65) 75,700 BTU Natural Gas - 1CCF (100 Standard Cubic Feet) = .84 Gal Gasoline (*1.19) 105,000 BTU Propane - 1 Gal = .73 Gal Gasoline (*1.37) 91,547 BTU Diesel - 1 Gal = 1.11 Gal Gasoline (*.90) 139,200 BTU Soydiesel - 1 Gal = .94 Gal Gasoline (*1.06) 117,093 BTU Kerosene - 1 Gal = 1.08 Gal Gasoline (*.93) 135,000 BTU Heating Oil - 1 Gal = 1.11 Gal Gasoline (*.90) 138,500 BTU Electricity - 1 Kwh = .034 Gal Gasoline (*36.62) 3,413 - - Conversions ----------------------------------------------------- Propane 1 gallon = 91,500 BTU 1 cubic foot = 25,000 BTU 1 pound = 21,500 BTU 1 gallon = 4.24 lbs 1 gallon = 36.39 standard cubic feet Natural Gas 100 standard cubic foot = 105,000 BTU Gasoline 1 pound = 19,000 BTU 1 gallon = 125,000 BTU 1 gallon = 6.1 lbs Oils 1 gallon kerosene = 135,000 BTU 1 gallon #2 oil = 138,500 BTU 1 gallon diesel = 139,200 BTU 1 gallon #6 oil = 153,200 BTU Other Fuels (dry) 1 lb hydrogen = 51,892 BTU with steam as product 1 lb coal (anthracite) = 12,700 BTU 1 lb coal (subbituminous) = 8,800 BTU 1 lb coal (bituminous) = 11,500 BTU 1 lb pine wood bark = 9,200 BTU 1 lb hardwood bark = 8,400 BTU 1 lb wood = 7,870 BTU 1 lb dung = 7,500 BTU 1 lb waste paper = 6,500 BTU 1 lb sawdust/shavings = 3,850 BTU 1 kWH electricity = 3,413 BTU 1 therm any fuel = 100,000 BTU ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2115 *************************