From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Oct 3 19:55:26 2005 From: xj-digest xj-digest Tuesday, October 4 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2178 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: RE: the Toureg - Diesel solution? :) Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:03:11 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: RE: the Toureg - Diesel solution? :) for the price of the one below on ebay I could buy a new one here... not sure I could import this one. They are offering the 2.8CRD in the KJ/Liberty. But I'd much prefer one in this model. I have a '99 WJ with the 4.0L and it's a very nice vehicle, but if it weren't for my strong prejuidice toward Jeep and we put the WJ alongside a Toureg it would be a very, very difficult decision. I test drove the KJ with the Diesel, it was ok... but didn't get my heart to beating, at least not nearly as much as a regular Toureg. A Toureg vs. a KJ would be a no brainer, the VW would win hands down. Daimler Chrysler is determined to ruin the Jeep line... no wait, they have ruined it... the end of the WJ was the end of Jeep... but hold that thought until I take a look at the commander. ;) john On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, Vincent Bentley wrote: >-->Why not personally import a 3-year old 2.7CRD Grand Cherokee WG from France? >-->The WG's are identical to American made WJ's just that they are made in >-->Austria with the 2.7L Mercedes diesel engine. If they can pass German TUV >-->tests I'm sure they will pass any Federal import requirement. >--> >-->This one is a year old. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JEEP-Grand-Cherokee-2-7-CRD-OVERLAND_W0QQitemZ4578422985QQcategoryZ9863QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >--> >-->-Vince- >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john >-->Sent: 02 October 2005 22:26 >-->To: chuck goolsbee >-->Cc: diesel-benz list; xj-list; full size jeep list >-->Subject: xj: the Toureg - Diesel solution? :) >--> >-->On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, chuck goolsbee wrote: >-->> -->> is there also a porsche in your future? :) The Toureg is a >-->> -->> wonderful machine... if they put a reasonable Diesel in that or >-->> -->> the Cayenne I'll give thought to giving up my Grand Cherokee. :) >--> >-->I loved my '85 XJ with a 2.1L TD, the only issue was the manual trans... >-->that and it couldn't tow it's own shadow. :) >--> >-->I'm looking forward to having the 6.2L in my J10... we'll see how the >-->economy works out... >--> >-->> --> >-->> -->They have a 10-cylinder twin-turbo TDI Diesel in the Toureg already: >-->> --> >--> >-->the only problem is fuel economy... only 25mpg max... if they put the >-->smaller 2.5L TDI(see below) in the Toureg it could get closer to 30mpg... >-->but this is still something of interest to me... With a shorter commute... >-->hmmmmmm if I sold my benz AND my soon to be restored J10 I might be able to >-->swing a year or two old Toureg... food for thought my friend... :) >--> >--> from a link from that page: >--> >-->Official EPA fuel economy ratings: With the V6, 15/20mpg (15.7/10.8l/100km) >-->and with the V8, 14/18mpg (17.3/11.8/100km). Towing capacity is 7,700 lbs >-->with either engine. >--> >-->A Hulk-like, 5.0L V10 TDI diesel will be available in 2004. In its European >-->configuration, it produces 303hp and an astounding 553lb-ft of torque. This >-->engine gets raves in Europe and it.s not difficult to see why. First of all, >-->forget everything you think you know about diesels. This diesel is >-->different. This diesel can push the Touareg to 150 mph and 25 mpg, although >-->not, regretfully, at the same time. >--> >-->While it's currently available in Europe, VW doesn't rule out the >-->possibility that its 5 cylinder, 2.5L diesel with 172hp and (gasp!) 400 >-->lb-ft of torque, could be an option for North America late in '05. >-->VW has teased that the all-round performance on the 2.5L diesel is similar >-->to the 4.2L V8 gasoline engine . except it.s two to three times more >-->fuel-efficient. I.m waiting for this one. >--> >--> >-->--- ME TOO!!! :) >--> >--> >-->> --> >-->> -->Not for me though... I am a "car guy" NOT a "truck guy"... in fact >-->> -->I hate being on the road with anything larger than a stationwagon. >--> >-->The GMC Jimmy I have is too big... my J10 and a Wagoneer (full size) is just >-->about right... they'll fit into a compact space yet tow anything and provide >-->survivability in a crash with everything short of a Mack truck. >--> >-->The Jetta and Beetle are too small and harsh riding for me... strange, I >-->actually >-->liked my Diesel Rabbits... ;) My 124 is just about perfect, but I prefer >-->driving my XJ (Jeep Cherokee) or Full Size Jeep. >--> >-->Getting a Toureg with a Diesel would satisfy all my cravings in one >-->vehicle... >--> >-->How's the reliability of the Toureg in the wild? any quality or maintenance >-->issues? >--> >-->john >--> >--> >-->> -->___________________________________________________________________ >-->> -->____ "It is so easy to miss pretty trivial solutions to problems >-->> -->deemed complicated. The goal of a scientist is to find an >-->> -->interesting problem, and live off it for a while. The goal of an >-->> -->engineer is to evade interesting problems :)" -- Vadim Antonov >-->> --> on NANOG >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:17:03 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? I was looking at doing a Nissan TD22 turbo or Toyota 1BT diesel (much easier since they both use a Mopar conversion or AW4) From: "Allen Zylstra" Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? If I figure out what drivtrain to use for a ZJ or XJ conversion then things might start to happen. Allen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:19:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->I was looking at doing a Nissan TD22 turbo or Toyota 1BT diesel (much easier >-->since they both use a Mopar conversion or AW4) and where can we find these? how much? :) You know it was interesting, when I was in Japan I saw 0 Diesel autos. :( john >-->From: "Allen Zylstra" >-->Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? >--> >-->If I figure out what drivtrain to use for a ZJ or XJ conversion then >-->things might start to happen. Allen >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:31:31 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? I've not seen a drastic reduction in fuel economy from a lift only... it's usually the bigger tires that can make the impact. My '87 XJ had 3" of lift and 31" tires, standard 3.55 gears and it got 17mpg in town and 21mpg on the freeway... the frontal area remains the same with a lift, and the undercarriage is exposed as it was before... but what usually happens is someone gets big ugly gnarly meats on their rig and the extra weight, rolling resistance and taller overall gearing hurts economy. the 31's I had were michelin ltx 31x10.5, nice tires... I bought them originally for my J10 but they were too much for the 4.2L in the SJ so I took them off... Surprisingly they did quite well on the XJ. 3" and 31's are my pick for XJ lift at this point... (I know I agreed that 2" and 30" were ideal and it is for newer ones so you don't get into the viscious angle issues). john On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, ernest breakfield wrote: >-->sorry, but a lift most certainly can have an effect on your fuel economy. >--> a lift is going to increase the frontal profile your vehicle presents >-->to the wind (increasing drag) and expose more of the non-aerodynamic >-->undercarriage parts to the wind (also increasing drag). >--> aside from that, raising your Center of Gravity farther off of the >-->ground will cause you to take corners slower, meaning you have to scrub >-->off more speed on the way into a turn, and use more fuel to get back up to >-->the same speed after you clear the turn. >--> >--> >-->cheers! >-->e >--> >--> >-->Ed Kummel wrote: >--> >-->> A lift really doesn't affect your gas mileage... >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 19:43:49 -0700 From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: xj: Re: XJ: what kind of lift? hi! john wrote: > I've not seen a drastic reduction in fuel economy from a lift > only... it's usually the bigger tires that can make the impact. i wasn't talking "drastic" (however that's defined)... nor was a talking about tires; i was talking about the fact that there is a measurable decrease in mileage on the same vehicle in the same use when lifted vs pre-lift with no other changes. i'm talking strictly about lift; no other changes. > My '87 XJ had 3" of lift and 31" tires, standard 3.55 gears and > it got 17mpg in town and 21mpg on the freeway... again, we're not talking about the tires, and just saying something got X/Y MPG doesn't really help. not to be too picky, but here's why; offhand, i don't see anything about what kind of mileage it got before that, what you had to do to get the speedo accurate again after the tire size change, whether or not they were exactly the same brand and model of tires just in different sizes, stick or automatic tranny, how driving habits may or may not have changed after the lift, (many people pussy-foot around more after a lift because of the changes in handling de-inspiring them to drive 'zippy'), elevation of use and/or point of purchase of fuels; all those factors (and others) are variables. > the frontal area remains the same with a lift, only the frontal are of the *body* of the vehicle remains the same; if you lift a vehicle, more of the undercarriage that was protected from the wind is now exposed and becomes part of the frontal area actually exposed to the wind. (for an easy example, take a look at the amount of track bar that shows after a lift as compared to before.) > and the undercarriage > is exposed as it was before... again, not so; since the body of the vehicle has been raised off of the suspension, more suspension and driveline componentry is in the wind. also, more wind goes under the vehicle; both of these result in more turbulence. ask your friends at Boeing; more turbulence = more drag = higher fuel consumption. obviously, the effect increases with speed, and relatively quickly since the XJ already has a CD close to that of a brick. ;-) > but what usually happens is > someone gets big ugly gnarly meats on their rig and the extra weight, > rolling resistance and taller overall gearing hurts economy. no argument there; larger tires create yet more weight to get rolling, and present yet more surface area and create yet more turbulence and yet more drag. incorrect gearing is another factor that would seem obvious, but i'll not discuss here for the sake of keeping on the topic of fuel efficiency as related to lift; i'm talking strictly about lift affecting fuel efficiency. > 3" and 31's are my pick for XJ lift at this point... (I know I agreed > that 2" and 30" were ideal and it is for newer ones so you don't get > into the viscious angle issues). again, agreed; not only do i think that's one of the most practical setups for all-round (read: expedition style) use, but i think 2-3" is probably the best looking. ;-) cheers! e ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2178 *************************