From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Apr 9 17:50:21 2006 From: xj-digest xj-digest Monday, April 10 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2306 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: Re: adventures with transmissions xj: Re: adventures with transmissions xj: electric '92? Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! xj: Re: adventures with transmissions Re: xj: $2.90/gallon!? - electrics xj: Re: adventures with transmissions xj: Re: adventures with transmissions Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:19:03 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: xj: Re: adventures with transmissions Too bad the 45RFE wasn't used behind the 4.0L! They could've used the upgrade! Just a mention, but you COULD convert the Willys to an automatic with a C4 from a 4x4 Ford (with the same tcase) and use a Ford (Cortina or Capri) 2.0L C4 auto bellhousing, flexplate and starter. Not the weak C3, but a HD C4 from a pickup would stand quite a beating and keep going! ~~build your truck right the first time!~~ From: john Subject: xj: adventures with transmissions wife called on her way to an appointment: "check engine light came on" ('99 WJ 4.7L V8, 45rfe) - ok I say, oil pressure? temp? ok... carry on... but stop if they change or you hear unusual noise from the engine... she gets there, I come by and swap out the WJ for my '91 300D. Immediately I extract the codes from the WJ... pretty slick, turn the key on/off 3 to 5 times, and out spits the offending code: P00700 So, I pop the verizon broadband card in my work laptop, connect to my server, pull up the hidden files with my shop manual, read the code... hmmm... transmission... call up jim startup on my work cell, he tells me to contact dave at dave's transmissions in lynnwood... so, here I am driving up I-5, laptop still connected to work email, on the cell with jim, and my wife calls on my other cell... all the while the check engine light still on and the V8 isn't going into overdrive or locking up the torque converter... it was in a limp home mode. :) Don't ya love technology. Of course the XJs have that mode, but FSJs, old Willys and Mercedes Diesels don't... Anyway, I'll save the long story for the WJ list... (pictures included), the bottom line is it turned out to be the speed sensor on the front of the transmission, total bill including labor and the governor's part, $83.95. However, I've made a new friend and we chatted about transmissions used in FSJs, XJs, WJs, other cars and of course Mercedes Diesels. He was quite knowledgeable and we both came to the conclusion that the following is quite true: - TH400's in FSJ's are solid - TF727's in FSJ's have "issues" (he said he was surprised by the troubles until we pointed out some of the details) - AW4's used in XJ's are incredible - 45RFE's used in WJ's are also fantastic Also got a rough quote from him on doing the T-90 tranny swap in my CJ-2A, however I really need to talk to Dave Sr, while Jr. knew a lot about the "newer" Jeeps, he wasn't too familiar with the Willys. :) Oh yeah, and as we were standing their chatting I noticed a Haynes manual on the shelf for Mercedes Diesels... and I said that manual is pretty useless, he said, yeah, he knew, it came from Jim startup who felt the same way about the manual. Jim had sent a mercedes Diesel (83) over with a bad trans and Dave's tech was able to fix it. We had a rather long, agreeable, discussion about Rube Goldberg's design efforts with the Automatics on Mercedes Diesels and his love of vacuum... but both of us agreed that that really... oh, no, I'm not going to state the obvious... ;) I'll do a writeup if the pictures turn out... cool Mac Tool to read the codes. Nice running into an honest local shop that knows what they're doing. Was thinking of doing the tranny swap in the CJ this weekend but it's raining... and I have homework... I think I may be hooking the towbar up to the Willys and dragging it over there, then somewhere else to have the top put on... then I can drive it. :) (no, I don't need the top on to drive it, but I need insurance, and it'll appraise better with the top... ;) john _________________________________________________________________ Don^Rt just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:44:54 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: adventures with transmissions On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->Too bad the 45RFE wasn't used behind the 4.0L! They could've used the > -->upgrade! no complaints with me on the AT they put behind the 4.0L. Very, very happy with the AW4. > -->Just a mention, but you COULD convert the Willys to an automatic with a C4 > -->from a 4x4 Ford (with the same tcase) and use a Ford (Cortina or Capri) 2.0L > -->C4 auto bellhousing, flexplate and starter. Not the weak C3, but a HD C4 > -->from a pickup would stand quite a beating and keep going! that would be very sweet... does it have the same dimensions as a T-90? It has to be compact. The C4 is an ok tranny. In the CJ-2A it would be nice, if it'll fit. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:28:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: electric '92? I'm looking at the details and wondering... With the transmission in the XJ all I'd have to do is attach an electric motor and a bunch of batteries... according to this guy in San Antonio he gets 30 to 35 miles per charge. 5 to 8 hrs to recharge on 110v, less on 240. My commute is 20 to 25 miles... http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/jpevspecs.php Anyone have any idea of costs of the motor and the batteries? I'm certainly not afraid of electronics, my only fear is the cost of the parts. ;) I believe he's got 20 batteries... that's roughly about $700 worth of regular old batteries... the optimas would be the first choice for weight and safety, but are more costly... oh, but this doesn't look good: http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml am I reading this right???? I could rebuild the engine in the XJ and pay for a lot of gas if these prices are right... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 00:40:51 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! At 12:59 AM 4/8/2006 , you wrote: >wow, both are pretty cool... I wonder what it cost to do the conversion? But dont forget the cost of electricity. 1 Kwh = .034 Gal Gasoline. So multiply your 1Kwh cost by 36.62 to get your fuel cost for the equivalent of a gallon of gas. At $0.11 per Kwh that would be about $4 per gallon. Sure, batteries and electric motors can be more efficient than gasoline engines. But probably not with a home-brew control system, charger, batteries and motor. And dont forget the cost of the batteries. Lead-acid deep cycle batteries typically have a 500 cycle life span (at 80% discharge). So that means a new set of batteries every year or two. Something else to add to the fuel cost total. Maybe OK for short commutes but not ready for prime time day-to-day driving. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 21:55:41 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Dave wrote: rates are much less up here in the PNW, but the costs and maintenance of the batteries and the limited range is an issue. cost mainly... if I could find a motor and a few batteries and do this conversion for around $500 I would probably do it as it's cheaper than rebuilding my existing 4.0L. john > -->At 12:59 AM 4/8/2006 , you wrote: > -->> wow, both are pretty cool... I wonder what it cost to do the conversion? > --> > -->But dont forget the cost of electricity. 1 Kwh = .034 Gal Gasoline. So > -->multiply your 1Kwh cost by 36.62 to get your fuel cost for the equivalent of > -->a gallon of gas. At $0.11 per Kwh that would be about $4 per gallon. > --> > -->Sure, batteries and electric motors can be more efficient than gasoline > -->engines. But probably not with a home-brew control system, charger, > -->batteries and motor. > --> > -->And dont forget the cost of the batteries. Lead-acid deep cycle batteries > -->typically have a 500 cycle life span (at 80% discharge). So that means a new > -->set of batteries every year or two. Something else to add to the fuel cost > -->total. > --> > -->Maybe OK for short commutes but not ready for prime time day-to-day driving. > --> > -->Dave > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 07:57:55 -0400 From: "Don Hansen" Subject: xj: Re: adventures with transmissions Speaking if Willys, I saw a BEAUTIFUL 50's Willys station wagon (Brooks Stevens design) last week in Hingham, MA. It was green and cream colored and looked only about 4 years old. It's owned by Hornstra Dairy, a local milk guy. I was behind it in my 99 XJ (MXJC???). It was so new and spiffy I felt I was back in the 50's! (Why I was driving when I was under 10 years old I don't know!!!) I wish the nostalgia dudes at DC would resurrect that design... - -Don - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: ; "full size jeep list" ; "xj-list" ; "diesel-benz list" ; "classic willys mail list" Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:12 PM Subject: xj: adventures with transmissions > wife called on her way to an appointment: "check engine light came on" > ('99 WJ 4.7L V8, 45rfe) - ok I say, oil pressure? temp? ok... carry > on... > but stop if they change or you hear unusual noise from the engine... > > she gets there, I come by and swap out the WJ for my '91 300D. > > Immediately I extract the codes from the WJ... pretty slick, turn the > key on/off 3 to 5 times, and out spits the offending code: P00700 > > So, I pop the verizon broadband card in my work laptop, connect to my > server, pull up the hidden files with my shop manual, read the code... > hmmm... transmission... call up jim startup on my work cell, he tells > me to contact dave at dave's transmissions in lynnwood... so, here > I am driving up I-5, laptop still connected to work email, on the cell > with jim, and my wife calls on my other cell... all the while the > check engine light still on and the V8 isn't going into overdrive > or locking up the torque converter... it was in a limp home mode. :) > Don't ya love technology. Of course the XJs have that mode, but > FSJs, old Willys and Mercedes Diesels don't... > > Anyway, I'll save the long story for the WJ list... (pictures included), > the bottom line is it turned out to be the speed sensor on the front > of the transmission, total bill including labor and the governor's part, > $83.95. > > However, I've made a new friend and we chatted about transmissions used > in FSJs, XJs, WJs, other cars and of course Mercedes Diesels. He was > quite knowledgeable and we both came to the conclusion that the following > is quite true: > - TH400's in FSJ's are solid > - TF727's in FSJ's have "issues" (he said he was surprised by the troubles > until we pointed out some of the details) > - AW4's used in XJ's are incredible > - 45RFE's used in WJ's are also fantastic > > Also got a rough quote from him on doing the T-90 tranny swap in my CJ-2A, > however > I really need to talk to Dave Sr, while Jr. knew a lot about the "newer" > Jeeps, > he wasn't too familiar with the Willys. :) > > Oh yeah, and as we were standing their chatting I noticed a Haynes manual > on the shelf for Mercedes Diesels... and I said that manual is pretty > useless, > he said, yeah, he knew, it came from Jim startup who felt the same way > about > the manual. Jim had sent a mercedes Diesel (83) over with a bad trans and > Dave's tech was able to fix it. We had a rather long, agreeable, > discussion > about Rube Goldberg's design efforts with the Automatics on Mercedes > Diesels > and his love of vacuum... but both of us agreed that that really... oh, > no, > I'm not going to state the obvious... ;) > > I'll do a writeup if the pictures turn out... cool Mac Tool to read the > codes. Nice running into an honest local shop that knows what they're > doing. > > Was thinking of doing the tranny swap in the CJ this weekend but it's > raining... > and I have homework... I think I may be hooking the towbar up to the > Willys > and dragging it over there, then somewhere else to have the top put on... > then > I can drive it. :) (no, I don't need the top on to drive it, but I need > insurance, and it'll appraise better with the top... ;) > > john > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 10:21:01 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: xj: $2.90/gallon!? - electrics At 12:55 AM 4/9/2006 , john wrote: >rates are much less up here in the PNW, but the costs and maintenance >of the batteries and the limited range is an issue. What is your cost per Kwh? There are a lot of good reasons for building (or converting to) electric. Unfortunately cost isn't one of them. Of course, if you can find a source for cheap batteries, that makes a big difference. But my experience is that used batteries are not worth the cost of shipping them. Batteries are so easily damaged by improper charge/discharge cycles and improper storage. Its hard to know what you are getting. It is also important that the whole set of batteries be matched. Mixing batteries of various ages and styles can be a recipe for disaster. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:32:29 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: xj: Re: adventures with transmissions They only used the 42RE in ZJs with the 4.0L except the early '93s. I'll see if I can get the info on the C4. They were used in Early Broncos with Dana 20. ~~build your truck right the first time!~~ On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Jim Blair wrote: >-->Too bad the 45RFE wasn't used behind the 4.0L! They could've used the >-->upgrade! no complaints with me on the AT they put behind the 4.0L. Very, very happy with the AW4. >-->Just a mention, but you COULD convert the Willys to an automatic with a >C4 >-->from a 4x4 Ford (with the same tcase) and use a Ford (Cortina or Capri) 2.0L >-->C4 auto bellhousing, flexplate and starter. Not the weak C3, but a HD C4 >-->from a pickup would stand quite a beating and keep going! that would be very sweet... does it have the same dimensions as a T-90? It has to be compact. The C4 is an ok tranny. In the CJ-2A it would be nice, if it'll fit. john _________________________________________________________________ Don^Rt just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 17:17:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: adventures with transmissions and THOSE transmissions do NOT have the same rep as the AW4's or the 45RFEs. john On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->They only used the 42RE in ZJs with the 4.0L except the early '93s. I'll see > -->if I can get the info on the C4. They were used in Early Broncos with Dana > -->20. > --> > -->~~build your truck right the first time!~~ > --> > -->On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->> --> Too bad the 45RFE wasn't used behind the 4.0L! They could've > -->> --> used the > -->> --> upgrade! > --> > -->no complaints with me on the AT they put behind the 4.0L. Very, very happy > -->with > -->the AW4. > --> > -->> --> Just a mention, but you COULD convert the Willys to an automatic > -->> --> with a > -->> C4 > -->> --> from a 4x4 Ford (with the same tcase) and use a Ford (Cortina or > -->> --> Capri) > -->2.0L > -->> --> C4 auto bellhousing, flexplate and starter. Not the weak C3, but > -->> --> a HD C4 > -->> --> from a pickup would stand quite a beating and keep going! > --> > -->that would be very sweet... does it have the same dimensions as a T-90? It > -->has > -->to be compact. The C4 is an ok tranny. In the CJ-2A it would be nice, if > -->it'll > -->fit. > --> > -->john > --> > -->_________________________________________________________________ > -->Don^Rt just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > -->http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > --> > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 19:43:51 -0500 From: "Allen Zylstra" Subject: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! I need one. I only drive 50 miles a day. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jesse Barbieri" Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net To: Subject: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:28:12 -0400 >This is a great idea for us XJ lovers... > >http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php > > >Maybe someday when we are all blessed with extra time and funds. > >BTW, I averaged 38MPG in my "new" used 1994 Toyota tercel. I bought >the thing about a month ago because gas prices here are a disgrace. > >Jesse. >----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" >To: >Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:00 AM >Subject: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! > > >>At 10:21 PM 4/6/2006 , Eric wrote: >>>The more expensive it is the more the alternatives will be >>>explored. Here is one: >>>http://www.go-one.de/ukindex.shtml >> >>That looks like a great alternative. In the cold the windows will >>fog up from sweat. In the heat, the greenhouse effect will bake my >>brain into a coma. And if I dont get run over by some maniac in a >>Navigator or Denali, and happen to arrive arrive at work, I will be >>two hours late, exhausted and in dire need of a shower. Sounds like >>a practical alternative to me. >> >>I think I will stick with my XJ for just a bit longer. Maybe >>convert it to CNG if the time comes. Last fall I priced out CNG at >>about $1.40 for the equivalent to a gallon of gas. To find your >>price, look at your gas bill. 1CCF (100 Standard Cubic Feet) is >>equal to about .84 Gal Gasoline. >> >>If all of the electric power plants would quit wasting NG, driving >>up the price, it would already be a practical, clean, cheap and >>plentiful alternative fuel for transportation. Most of us could >>even fill up in our own garage. >> >>An XJ can easily be converted to CNG. A CNG tank is a bit large, >>and the peak engine HP drops a bit, but the conversion can be done >>with existing parts. And CNG can be mixed (or even replaced) with >>hydrogen, produced from renewable or nuclear power sources. >> >>A much more practical alternative in my opinion. All that is >>missing is the political will. >> >>Dave ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2306 *************************