From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 21 16:39:12 2006 From: xj-digest xj-digest Wednesday, June 21 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2355 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" xj: question on axles Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" xj: trade gray steering wheel for tan? xj: Re: fsj: Re: question on axles xj: another willys? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:55:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "ernest breakfield" Subject: Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" i guess maybe you'd have to know me to understand why i find quotes from an admittedly insane former Tech Writer so amusing...? ;-) my favorite description of how manuals get written comes from that book. ;-O cheers! e > excellent... :) > john > > On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > John wrote: > >> A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until >> it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". >> >> It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) >> > Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > Maintenance: > > "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the > elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very > little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very > careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, > have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in > which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the > elasticity isn't apparent. > > With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces > and you should understand that within these ranges metals are > elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" > where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's > "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then > there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is > taken up. The force required to reach these three points is > different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for > lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different > for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics > and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when > something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right > on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. > > A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the > elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to > understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally > take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) > > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:31:46 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, ernest breakfield wrote: >-->i guess maybe you'd have to know me to understand why i find quotes from >-->an admittedly insane former Tech Writer so amusing...? ;-) >--> >--> my favorite description of how manuals get written comes from that >-->book. ;-O oh do share... I work near a couple of whacky tech writers... used to teach tech writing in the last century... john >--> >--> >-->cheers! >-->e >--> >--> >-->> excellent... :) >-->> john >-->> >-->> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >-->> John wrote: >-->> >-->>> A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until >-->>> it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". >-->>> >-->>> It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) >-->>> >-->> Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle >-->> Maintenance: >-->> >-->> "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the >-->> elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very >-->> little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very >-->> careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, >-->> have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in >-->> which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the >-->> elasticity isn't apparent. >-->> >-->> With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces >-->> and you should understand that within these ranges metals are >-->> elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" >-->> where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's >-->> "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then >-->> there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is >-->> taken up. The force required to reach these three points is >-->> different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for >-->> lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different >-->> for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics >-->> and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when >-->> something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right >-->> on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. >-->> >-->> A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the >-->> elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to >-->> understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally >-->> take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." >-->> >-->> - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) >-->> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:40:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: question on axles I've possibly got my '92 xj with no engine sold... sort of... cash is about half what I wanted but I'm getting a good AW4 and NP231 as part of the deal, and if the answer is favorable (from y'all), a pair of axles from an '88 XJ (Cherokee). It's a stock Cherokee probably with Dana 30/35 axles, expect the gear ratio to be 3.55. Are the axles worth having? Will they sell? If so, what are they worth? Could the axles be used on my '48 CJ-2A, or do they need to be cut down? This would of course ruin the originality of the CJ, but give me decent brakes and gearing... of course I'd save the original axles... the xj axles are probably not something to get excited about, unless this thing has a dana 44 under it... ;) thoughts? anyone need a good AW4 or NP231? they're relatively easy to ship fedex... ~$75... thanx, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:05:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" Hmmm...that's all well and good...I can guestimate 70-120 foot pounds of tightening force to not need a torque wrench to put my wheels on... But reading through the Jeep transmission manual, it recommends that when you tighten the bands, you tighten to 8 inch-newtons... I don't know about you, but I don't think I'ld know a "newton" unless it called it's self a cookie! Ed web/gadget guru john wrote: excellent... :) john On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: John wrote: > A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until > it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". > > It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) > Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: "The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the elasticity isn't apparent. With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces and you should understand that within these ranges metals are elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's "snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is taken up. The force required to reach these three points is different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." - - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) - ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Traveling on a domestic airline with children on board is like traveling with a Chihuahua with diarrhea" Jerry Clavner, a sociology and anthropology professor from Cleveland. - --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:12:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: re: torque settings, or "mechanic's feel" 8 nm (newton meters) = 5.9 ft lbs (or ft lbs?) john On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Ed Kummel wrote: >-->Hmmm...that's all well and good...I can guestimate 70-120 foot pounds of tightening force to not need a torque wrench to put my wheels on... >--> But reading through the Jeep transmission manual, it recommends that when you tighten the bands, you tighten to 8 inch-newtons... >--> I don't know about you, but I don't think I'ld know a "newton" unless it called it's self a cookie! >--> Ed >--> web/gadget guru >--> >-->john wrote: >--> excellent... :) >-->john >--> >-->On Tue, 20 Jun 2006, Jerry Kaidor wrote: >-->John wrote: >--> >-->> A general rule of thumb on stuff like this is to tighten it down until >-->> it seats and then give it 3/4 to 1 turn, depending on the "Feel". >-->> >-->> It's something you learn after twisting a few bolts off... :) >-->> >-->Here's one of my favorite passages from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle >-->Maintenance: >--> >-->"The mechanic's feel comes from a deep inner kinesthetic feeling for the >-->elasticity of materials. Some materials, like ceramics, have very >-->little, so that when you thread a porcelain fitting you're very >-->careful not to apply great pressures. Other materials, like steel, >-->have tremendous elasticity, more than rubber, but in a range in >-->which, unless you're working with large mechanical forces, the >-->elasticity isn't apparent. >--> >-->With nuts and bolts you're in the range of large mechanical forces >-->and you should understand that within these ranges metals are >-->elastic. When you take up a nut there's a point called "finger-tight" >-->where there's contact but no takeup of elasticity. Then there's >-->"snug," in which the easy surface elasticity is taken up. Then >-->there's a range called "tight," in which all the elasticity is >-->taken up. The force required to reach these three points is >-->different for each size of nut and bolt, and different for >-->lubricated bolts and for locknuts. The forces are different >-->for steel and cast iron and brass and aluminum and plastics >-->and ceramics. But a person with mechanic's feel knows when >-->something's tight and stops. A person without it goes right >-->on past and strips the threads or breaks the assembly. >--> >-->A "mechanic's feel" implies not only an understanding for the >-->elasticity of metal but for its softness... It's important to >-->understand that the metal behind the surfaces can normally >-->take great shock and stress but the surfaces themselves cannot." >--> >-->- Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) >--> >--> >-->---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> >--> >-->"Traveling on a domestic airline with children on board is like traveling with a Chihuahua with diarrhea" >--> Jerry Clavner, a sociology and anthropology professor from Cleveland. >--> >-->--------------------------------- >-->Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:30:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: trade gray steering wheel for tan? I've got a nice leather wrapped xj steering wheel that I'd like to trade for a nice leather wrapped TAN wheel... anyone got one? :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:42:22 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: Re: fsj: Re: question on axles that's kind of what I was thinking... guess I'll ask my friend with a boat if he's interested. :) I'm hoping the rear is a D44, but in '88 that didn't happen very often... one of my '87s had one... thanx, john On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Neal Hoover wrote: >-->not unless someone wants them for trail spares or something. >-->the 35 is not worth the trouble, and the 30 probably has either CV joints or >-->260-X size u-joints. >-->if it were a '96 or newer, it would have the 297-X joints in it: same size >-->as a D44. >-->you bacically have a couple of boat anchors. >-->;) >--> >-->Neal A. Hoover >-->Project '76 J-10 >-->Project '96 XJ >-->http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj >--> >--> >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "john" >-->To: "xj-list" ; "full size jeep list" ; >-->"classic willys mail list" ; >-->Cc: >-->Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 10:40 PM >-->Subject: fsj: question on axles >--> >--> >-->> I've possibly got my '92 xj with no engine sold... sort of... >-->> cash is about half what I wanted but I'm getting a good AW4 and >-->> NP231 as part of the deal, and if the answer is favorable (from y'all), a >-->pair >-->> of axles from an '88 XJ (Cherokee). It's a stock Cherokee probably >-->> with Dana 30/35 axles, expect the gear ratio to be 3.55. >-->> >-->> Are the axles worth having? Will they sell? If so, what are they worth? >-->> >-->> Could the axles be used on my '48 CJ-2A, or do they need to be cut down? >-->> This would of course ruin the originality of the CJ, but give me decent >-->brakes >-->> and gearing... of course I'd save the original axles... >-->> >-->> the xj axles are probably not something to get excited about, unless >-->> this thing has a dana 44 under it... ;) >-->> >-->> thoughts? >-->> >-->> anyone need a good AW4 or NP231? they're relatively easy to ship >-->> fedex... ~$75... >-->> >-->> thanx, >-->> john >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:38:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: another willys? y'all know I've been trying to get rid of an engineless '92 xj for some time now... it went away but wants to come home... worked sort of a deal to part with it, but going backwards on it... in the meantime, chatting with someone about their old engineless cj-2a, also a 1948 (like mine) we talked about a straight trade... there are several parts on this cj-2a I can use to get mine near 100%, or vice versa... shhhh... don't say anything to my wife though... ;) anyway, am I nuts to consider getting another cj-2a? I can hide these pretty easy in my shop... ;) http://wagoneers.com/Willys/1948-CJ-2A/ALL.html thanx, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2355 *************************