From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Feb 8 01:30:56 2007 From: xj-digest xj-digest Thursday, February 8 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2509 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: xj itch may be cured Re: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. Re: xj: xj itch may be cured [none] xj: another diesel xj: Re: your mail Re: xj: another diesel Re: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. Re: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:56:01 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: xj: xj itch may be cured A: Yup! The '93 4.0L and AW4 currently in my '84 J10 is from a '93 ZJ. If the rig needing a trans is old enough, it will have the spot to plug the AW4 harness in still (they made it so they could swap out the AW4 to Mopar trans later) BTW, from everything I have read and heard, the fuel economy dropped an average 5 mpg with the switch to the 42RE! From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: xj: xj itch may be cured actually, if you can find an early '93 ZJ, they *did* have the AW4 until they got screwed up with the ChryCo tranny,... cheers! e john wrote: >a ZJ will NOT have a good transmission, they use the 42RE and not >the AW4. every one I've know with a ZJ has had transmission issues. > >john _________________________________________________________________ >From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards. http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 21:42:35 -0800 From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. what's with patenting the "Shimless" design? any leaf that adds the same height at both ends would be "Shimless:,... it's only when you add more height at one end than the other (as with shackles) that you need to shim,... making a big deal out of what is essentially nothing always smells like BS/a con job to me, and will turn me off fast. either they're trying to take advantage of people that don't know better, or they don't know better; neither of which is good. cheers! e Michael Vazzana wrote: > I was able to buy the kit from Hell Creek which included everything to > do a "proper" lift ( $480). The kit included: > > * *Hell Creek Suspensions, Inc. rear leaf springs MADE IN THE U.S.A. > with tapered ends and our exclusive "Shimless" (tm) design that > gives the correct pinion angle without the need for shims.* > * *Front Coil Springs* > * *U-bolts with Nylock nuts* > * *Heckethorn Hydro 8000 shocks* > * *Black shock boots* > > > What I didn't bank on was what a pain it was to get my old leaf bushings > off (had to cut the old leafs, rubber and metal parts of the bushing off > with a whiz wheel due to some serious rust). That made it necessary to > replace the spring bolts (available at Jeep for aobut $4 a piece). I > also bought a Rough Country stabilizer shock from Tom ($34.95) as well > which is much beefier than the little weenie one that comes stock on XJ > 4x4's. > > Good luck! > Michael > > Bob Carlson wrote: > >> I may very well look at Hell Creek, especially considering they;re >> practically in my back yard (I'm located in Jackson, MS, and New Albany, MS >> is only about a 3 hour drive from here) Whatever route (life manufacturer) >> I do plan on replacing both the front and rear springs with new. Some may >> like the the booster block setup, longer shackles, blocks, etc., I myself >> like the clean look of a full spring pack or coil, with no assists. >> >> Thanks to everyone for the input so far. I'd gotten a lot of conflicting >> "buddy" input, mainly from those I know who have radically lifted full size >> trucks, or 'mud dawg' CJ's. >> While I don't mind paying for a decent kit/parts, I want to try to eliminate >> as many "gotchas" during the install as possible; there's nothing I dislike >> more than having to pause a project to go purchase some other part because >> it either wasn't included in the initial purchase, or mentioned that I'd be >> needing it as well. >> >> John, I suppose Central 4wd is physically located up in your neck of the >> woods? >> >> On 2/7/07, Michael Vazzana wrote: >> >> >>> I installed Hell Creek 3" lift kit on my 91 XJ and put a set of 31's on >>> American Racing 15" alloy rims. Very nice. The owner of Hell Creek >>> makes his own leaf springs and supplies Rough Country shocks with >>> boots. I highly recommend Tom Laher at Hell Creek who is extremely >>> helpful to the uninitiated and provides all the support you could ever >>> ask for (662-534-2216). >>> Michael >>> >>> Allen Zylstra wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I would go at least 3" or the tires may rub. Good idea with the new >>>> springs as the old ones are probably sagging so blocks and shackles >>>> wouldn't give you the full benefit of a lift. Are you planning to use >>>> new lift springs in front also? Sounds like you and I have the same >>>> plans, but I was thinking 3-4" of lift for 31s. I have never had a >>>> lifted XJ, but my 86 2 door rubbed alot with 30s. They would rub going >>>> over bumps if I had rear seat passengers. >>>> >>>> Allen >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> From: "Bob Carlson" >>>> Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net >>>> To: xj-at-digest.net >>>> Subject: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. >>>> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:07:45 -0600 >>>> >I am beginning to look at lifting my 94 Cherokee mildly, possibly >>>> with a >>>> >2-3" lift as I am looking to run ~31" tires. The XJ will still be >>>> my daily >>>> >driver, so I am not really concerned with going bigger (that's what >>>> the 86' >>>> >FSJ project is for!) and am wondering if any of you would share with >>>> me your >>>> >past/present dealings' with the lift(s) you have/had put on your >>>> Jeep. I'm >>>> >wanting to get a lift with: >>>> >- post purchase support from the manufacturer/dealer (for those >>>> times when, >>>> >for one reason or another a part is missing or damaged during >>>> transit), >>>> >- a complete kit would be nice, but not necessary; I do want to try >>>> a limit >>>> >the number of purchasing points if at all possible (you know, >>>> purchasing >>>> >shocks from vendor A, bushings from vendor B, springs from C, etc., >>>> etc.) >>>> >- some sort of detailed instructional sheet/book is always >>>> beneficial (not >>>> >that I couldn't figure it out on my own, but it would help to >>>> decrease the >>>> >wrenching time) >>>> >- I definitely want a kit/setup that comes with full rear springs, >>>> no >>>> >add-a-leaf's >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >thanks, >>>> > - Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:22:48 -0500 From: "Bob" Subject: Re: xj: xj itch may be cured BUT.....in just one year, '93, SOME (though rare) ZJs were equipped with AW4 transmissions! We have a customer with an immaculate example that I've been waiting to pounce on.....well over 100k on it, and no sign of them letting go of it yet... Bob - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:02 PM Subject: Re: xj: xj itch may be cured >a ZJ will NOT have a good transmission, they use the 42RE and not > the AW4. every one I've know with a ZJ has had transmission issues. > > john > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Jim Blair wrote: > >> -->A: There is a nice '93 Grand Cherokee in need of a trans for $500 here >> -->(won't even look at it because it's green) and a '96 Cherokee for >> $1000 that >> -->had a tree hit it during the big storm. (both on Craig's list eastside >> -->edition) >> --> >> --> >> -->From: "Allen Zylstra" >> -->Subject: Re: xj: xj itch may be cured >> --> >> -->That is a concern for me. I have seen very few XJs that needed >> -->trans >> -->repairs. There is more jeeps out there. I just saw one on >> -->craigslist >> -->for $500 that needs an engine. I know of XJ that has been >> -->wheeled hard, >> -->but has a good engine and trans I think I could get cheap. >> -->Might need to >> -->see if I can put something together. Or just wait until >> -->another one >> -->comes up for $1200. I can swing that. >> --> >> -->Allen >> --> >> -->_________________________________________________________________ >> -->Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger >> -->http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline >> --> >> --> > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:34:26 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: [none] Not into oil burners, but this has possibilities with an '87 to '90 XJ/MJ. (since they already have the 5 speed trans from one) http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/car/275141823.html _________________________________________________________________ Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into something more. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:40:01 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: xj: another diesel http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/274151896.html Volvo this time. _________________________________________________________________ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:47:23 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: Re: your mail this is one I'd pour oil on and burn... and if an xj needed a transmission, I'd convert it to an aT... :) On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Jim Blair wrote: > -->Not into oil burners, but this has possibilities with an '87 to '90 XJ/MJ. > -->(since they already have the 5 speed trans from one) > --> > -->http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/car/275141823.html ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:49:33 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: another diesel Jim, a Volvo 240D is not a 240D Diesel... that's a Mercedes designation. :) the volvo Diesel is NOT something you want to deal with, it was made by VW, but not well... but it's better than a Peugot. :) (but not by much...) On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, Jim Blair wrote: > -->http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/274151896.html > --> > -->Volvo this time. > --> > -->_________________________________________________________________ > -->Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. > -->http://get.live.com/messenger/overview > --> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:45:20 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. I like the idea of not having to mess with the shims... one of the first lifts I did I wasn't aware of that need and hunted down driveline vibrations for several weeks... it wasn't fun... not having to use shims is a BIG selling point for me because I'm math challenged. ;) john On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, ernest breakfield wrote: > -->what's with patenting the "Shimless" design? any leaf that adds the same > -->height at both ends would be "Shimless:,... it's only when you add more > -->height at one end than the other (as with shackles) that you need to > -->shim,... > --> > --> making a big deal out of what is essentially nothing always smells like > -->BS/a con job to me, and will turn me off fast. either they're trying to take > -->advantage of people that don't know better, or they don't know better; > -->neither of which is good. > --> > --> > -->cheers! > -->e > --> > --> > -->Michael Vazzana wrote: > -->> I was able to buy the kit from Hell Creek which included everything to do > -->> a "proper" lift ( $480). The kit included: > -->> > -->> * *Hell Creek Suspensions, Inc. rear leaf springs MADE IN THE U.S.A. > -->> with tapered ends and our exclusive "Shimless" (tm) design that > -->> gives the correct pinion angle without the need for shims.* > -->> * *Front Coil Springs* > -->> * *U-bolts with Nylock nuts* > -->> * *Heckethorn Hydro 8000 shocks* > -->> * *Black shock boots* > -->> > -->> > -->> What I didn't bank on was what a pain it was to get my old leaf bushings > -->> off (had to cut the old leafs, rubber and metal parts of the bushing off > -->> with a whiz wheel due to some serious rust). That made it necessary to > -->> replace the spring bolts (available at Jeep for aobut $4 a piece). I also > -->> bought a Rough Country stabilizer shock from Tom ($34.95) as well which is > -->> much beefier than the little weenie one that comes stock on XJ 4x4's. > -->> > -->> Good luck! > -->> Michael > -->> > -->> Bob Carlson wrote: > -->> > -->> > I may very well look at Hell Creek, especially considering they;re > -->> > practically in my back yard (I'm located in Jackson, MS, and New Albany, > -->> > MS > -->> > is only about a 3 hour drive from here) Whatever route (life > -->> > manufacturer) > -->> > I do plan on replacing both the front and rear springs with new. Some > -->> > may > -->> > like the the booster block setup, longer shackles, blocks, etc., I > -->> > myself > -->> > like the clean look of a full spring pack or coil, with no assists. > -->> > > -->> > Thanks to everyone for the input so far. I'd gotten a lot of > -->> > conflicting > -->> > "buddy" input, mainly from those I know who have radically lifted full > -->> > size > -->> > trucks, or 'mud dawg' CJ's. > -->> > While I don't mind paying for a decent kit/parts, I want to try to > -->> > eliminate > -->> > as many "gotchas" during the install as possible; there's nothing I > -->> > dislike > -->> > more than having to pause a project to go purchase some other part > -->> > because > -->> > it either wasn't included in the initial purchase, or mentioned that I'd > -->> > be > -->> > needing it as well. > -->> > > -->> > John, I suppose Central 4wd is physically located up in your neck of the > -->> > woods? > -->> > > -->> > On 2/7/07, Michael Vazzana wrote: > -->> > > -->> > > -->> > > I installed Hell Creek 3" lift kit on my 91 XJ and put a set of 31's > -->> > > on > -->> > > American Racing 15" alloy rims. Very nice. The owner of Hell Creek > -->> > > makes his own leaf springs and supplies Rough Country shocks with > -->> > > boots. I highly recommend Tom Laher at Hell Creek who is extremely > -->> > > helpful to the uninitiated and provides all the support you could ever > -->> > > ask for (662-534-2216). > -->> > > Michael > -->> > > > -->> > > Allen Zylstra wrote: > -->> > > > -->> > > > -->> > > > I would go at least 3" or the tires may rub. Good idea with the new > -->> > > > springs as the old ones are probably sagging so blocks and shackles > -->> > > > wouldn't give you the full benefit of a lift. Are you planning to > -->> > > > use > -->> > > > new lift springs in front also? Sounds like you and I have the same > -->> > > > plans, but I was thinking 3-4" of lift for 31s. I have never had a > -->> > > > lifted XJ, but my 86 2 door rubbed alot with 30s. They would rub > -->> > > > going > -->> > > > over bumps if I had rear seat passengers. > -->> > > > > -->> > > > Allen > -->> > > > > -->> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -->> > > > > -->> > > > From: "Bob Carlson" > -->> > > > Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net > -->> > > > To: xj-at-digest.net > -->> > > > Subject: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. > -->> > > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:07:45 -0600 > -->> > > > >I am beginning to look at lifting my 94 Cherokee mildly, possibly > -->> > > > with a > -->> > > > >2-3" lift as I am looking to run ~31" tires. The XJ will still be > -->> > > > my daily > -->> > > > >driver, so I am not really concerned with going bigger (that's what > -->> > > > the 86' > -->> > > > >FSJ project is for!) and am wondering if any of you would share > -->> > > > >with > -->> > > > me your > -->> > > > >past/present dealings' with the lift(s) you have/had put on your > -->> > > > Jeep. I'm > -->> > > > >wanting to get a lift with: > -->> > > > >- post purchase support from the manufacturer/dealer (for those > -->> > > > times when, > -->> > > > >for one reason or another a part is missing or damaged during > -->> > > > transit), > -->> > > > >- a complete kit would be nice, but not necessary; I do want to try > -->> > > > a limit > -->> > > > >the number of purchasing points if at all possible (you know, > -->> > > > purchasing > -->> > > > >shocks from vendor A, bushings from vendor B, springs from C, etc., > -->> > > > etc.) > -->> > > > >- some sort of detailed instructional sheet/book is always > -->> > > > beneficial (not > -->> > > > >that I couldn't figure it out on my own, but it would help to > -->> > > > decrease the > -->> > > > >wrenching time) > -->> > > > >- I definitely want a kit/setup that comes with full rear springs, > -->> > > > no > -->> > > > >add-a-leaf's > -->> > > > > > -->> > > > > > -->> > > > >thanks, > -->> > > > > - Bob > --> > --> ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 01:24:05 -0800 From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. sorry i wasn't clear enough; with a standard drive shaft, shims are to correct a situation where the pinion and the T'Case are not parallel to each other, so there's no need for shims unless you're adding extended shackles. unless there's something wrong with the springs you're using, any spring pack appropriate for the application should lift the same height on both ends, so just adding a leaf pack shouldn't cause a need for shims because there's no change in the angles of the pinion and T'Case relative to each other. therefore, the whole pitch about a "Shimless" design is (at best) just noise. cheers! e john wrote: > I like the idea of not having to mess with the shims... one of the > first lifts I did I wasn't aware of that need and hunted down > driveline vibrations for several weeks... it wasn't fun... > > not having to use shims is a BIG selling point for me because > I'm math challenged. ;) > > john > > On Wed, 7 Feb 2007, ernest breakfield wrote: > > >> -->what's with patenting the "Shimless" design? any leaf that adds the same >> -->height at both ends would be "Shimless:,... it's only when you add more >> -->height at one end than the other (as with shackles) that you need to >> -->shim,... >> --> >> --> making a big deal out of what is essentially nothing always smells like >> -->BS/a con job to me, and will turn me off fast. either they're trying to take >> -->advantage of people that don't know better, or they don't know better; >> -->neither of which is good. >> --> >> --> >> -->cheers! >> -->e >> --> >> --> >> -->Michael Vazzana wrote: >> -->> I was able to buy the kit from Hell Creek which included everything to do >> -->> a "proper" lift ( $480). The kit included: >> -->> >> -->> * *Hell Creek Suspensions, Inc. rear leaf springs MADE IN THE U.S.A. >> -->> with tapered ends and our exclusive "Shimless" (tm) design that >> -->> gives the correct pinion angle without the need for shims.* >> -->> * *Front Coil Springs* >> -->> * *U-bolts with Nylock nuts* >> -->> * *Heckethorn Hydro 8000 shocks* >> -->> * *Black shock boots* >> -->> >> -->> >> -->> What I didn't bank on was what a pain it was to get my old leaf bushings >> -->> off (had to cut the old leafs, rubber and metal parts of the bushing off >> -->> with a whiz wheel due to some serious rust). That made it necessary to >> -->> replace the spring bolts (available at Jeep for aobut $4 a piece). I also >> -->> bought a Rough Country stabilizer shock from Tom ($34.95) as well which is >> -->> much beefier than the little weenie one that comes stock on XJ 4x4's. >> -->> >> -->> Good luck! >> -->> Michael >> -->> >> -->> Bob Carlson wrote: >> -->> >> -->> > I may very well look at Hell Creek, especially considering they;re >> -->> > practically in my back yard (I'm located in Jackson, MS, and New Albany, >> -->> > MS >> -->> > is only about a 3 hour drive from here) Whatever route (life >> -->> > manufacturer) >> -->> > I do plan on replacing both the front and rear springs with new. Some >> -->> > may >> -->> > like the the booster block setup, longer shackles, blocks, etc., I >> -->> > myself >> -->> > like the clean look of a full spring pack or coil, with no assists. >> -->> > >> -->> > Thanks to everyone for the input so far. I'd gotten a lot of >> -->> > conflicting >> -->> > "buddy" input, mainly from those I know who have radically lifted full >> -->> > size >> -->> > trucks, or 'mud dawg' CJ's. >> -->> > While I don't mind paying for a decent kit/parts, I want to try to >> -->> > eliminate >> -->> > as many "gotchas" during the install as possible; there's nothing I >> -->> > dislike >> -->> > more than having to pause a project to go purchase some other part >> -->> > because >> -->> > it either wasn't included in the initial purchase, or mentioned that I'd >> -->> > be >> -->> > needing it as well. >> -->> > >> -->> > John, I suppose Central 4wd is physically located up in your neck of the >> -->> > woods? >> -->> > >> -->> > On 2/7/07, Michael Vazzana wrote: >> -->> > >> -->> > >> -->> > > I installed Hell Creek 3" lift kit on my 91 XJ and put a set of 31's >> -->> > > on >> -->> > > American Racing 15" alloy rims. Very nice. The owner of Hell Creek >> -->> > > makes his own leaf springs and supplies Rough Country shocks with >> -->> > > boots. I highly recommend Tom Laher at Hell Creek who is extremely >> -->> > > helpful to the uninitiated and provides all the support you could ever >> -->> > > ask for (662-534-2216). >> -->> > > Michael >> -->> > > >> -->> > > Allen Zylstra wrote: >> -->> > > >> -->> > > >> -->> > > > I would go at least 3" or the tires may rub. Good idea with the new >> -->> > > > springs as the old ones are probably sagging so blocks and shackles >> -->> > > > wouldn't give you the full benefit of a lift. Are you planning to >> -->> > > > use >> -->> > > > new lift springs in front also? Sounds like you and I have the same >> -->> > > > plans, but I was thinking 3-4" of lift for 31s. I have never had a >> -->> > > > lifted XJ, but my 86 2 door rubbed alot with 30s. They would rub >> -->> > > > going >> -->> > > > over bumps if I had rear seat passengers. >> -->> > > > >> -->> > > > Allen >> -->> > > > >> -->> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -->> > > > >> -->> > > > From: "Bob Carlson" >> -->> > > > Reply-To: xj-at-digest.net >> -->> > > > To: xj-at-digest.net >> -->> > > > Subject: xj: lifting thoughts, kits, etc. >> -->> > > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:07:45 -0600 >> -->> > > > >I am beginning to look at lifting my 94 Cherokee mildly, possibly >> -->> > > > with a >> -->> > > > >2-3" lift as I am looking to run ~31" tires. The XJ will still be >> -->> > > > my daily >> -->> > > > >driver, so I am not really concerned with going bigger (that's what >> -->> > > > the 86' >> -->> > > > >FSJ project is for!) and am wondering if any of you would share >> -->> > > > >with >> -->> > > > me your >> -->> > > > >past/present dealings' with the lift(s) you have/had put on your >> -->> > > > Jeep. I'm >> -->> > > > >wanting to get a lift with: >> -->> > > > >- post purchase support from the manufacturer/dealer (for those >> -->> > > > times when, >> -->> > > > >for one reason or another a part is missing or damaged during >> -->> > > > transit), >> -->> > > > >- a complete kit would be nice, but not necessary; I do want to try >> -->> > > > a limit >> -->> > > > >the number of purchasing points if at all possible (you know, >> -->> > > > purchasing >> -->> > > > >shocks from vendor A, bushings from vendor B, springs from C, etc., >> -->> > > > etc.) >> -->> > > > >- some sort of detailed instructional sheet/book is always >> -->> > > > beneficial (not >> -->> > > > >that I couldn't figure it out on my own, but it would help to >> -->> > > > decrease the >> -->> > > > >wrenching time) >> -->> > > > >- I definitely want a kit/setup that comes with full rear springs, >> -->> > > > no >> -->> > > > >add-a-leaf's >> -->> > > > > >> -->> > > > > >> -->> > > > >thanks, >> -->> > > > > - Bob >> --> >> --> >> > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2509 *************************