From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 9 23:31:29 2008 From: xj-digest xj-digest Thursday, January 10 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2723 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: RE: preventing theft of our jeeps Re: xj: RE: preventing theft of our jeeps RE: xj: Missing 90 Cherokee, Black, pls help! Re: xj: Re: Re: preventing theft of our jeeps Re: xj: Re: Re: preventing theft of our jeeps XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:49:45 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: RE: preventing theft of our jeeps Perhaps... but I'm of the mind that if I can't have it, nobody will! I did talk to a lawyer about just this kind of thing many, many years ago...I asked him is there anyway I can cause harm to someone atttempting to steal my vehicle. He couldn't come up with a method so I did some brainstorming and came up with this: Some states do not have a law that limits how loud a warning device can be (ie. a theft alarm) At the time of my asking, they didn't have the technology yet, but they were working on it. Use a directed sound beam (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2003-05-19-hss_x.htm) and have it pointing inside the vehicle about where the driver would be situated during a vehicle theft. As the alarm is announcing the theft of your vehicle, the intensity of the sound pointing towards the illegal driver causes permanent damage to the thief, and or death. The lawyer I talked to admitted that since an alarm is a warning device and that if a perpetrator did not heed the warning of the alarm and vacate the premesis, it becomes a matter of the thief not taking the necessary precautions based on the instructions given by the fact that the alarm is sounding and therefore is responsible for their own actions. Unfortunatly, if the perpetrator doesn't die in the commission of a felony (ie the theft of your vehicle) there is always the possiblity that the thief can file a civil suit against you...that's why I suggest that at the time that your alarm goes off, your power door locks mysteriously fail...perhaps the thief "damaged" the mechanism which prevented his speedy exit from the vehicle that was emitting the warning signal! The lawyer said that while this is skating of thin ice, it may be legal barring Mens Rea. As long as you maintain that this system was designed solely as an indicator to potential thiefs that they had indeed tripped an alarm, and an indicator to you that the alarm had been tripped, that it was their choice to ignore the warning...the consequences of their actions lay solely on their choice. The laywer did say that you needed to give the thief a means of escape if deadly force is to be used....but I contend that the alarm is not deadly force, just a very, very loud warning device! Ed web/gadget guru (ianal) john wrote: the goal is to keep the jeep intact... :) - ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Gary wrote: # Your other ideas might be along my ideas as I am all for a claymore mine or # bouncing betty under the front seat, they would be able to steal it but you # would certainly find out who and where it ended up at...... # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:46 PM # To: xj # Cc: fsj list # Subject: xj: preventing theft of our jeeps # # interesting device... # # also interesting that they didn't tear out the ignition on my '91 GW... # probably because they found the keys in the house... but not the key # to the club... weird... # # might be a well spent $60... but like Alan, who would expect your # ride to be swiped in a church parking lot??? # # do alarm systems help? they're going off all the time so who even looks??? # # # But, I prefer other electronics countermeasures... :) # # one idea is to have a bank of switches on the dash... use a binary # code to latch the correct combination in... wrong code sets off # the horn/lights/disables ignition, etc. :) # # critical stuff is routed through the right combination of switches... # things that would prevent under the hood hotwiring... custom wiring # and routing would also help... anything that throughs these dirt bags # off the trail is the plan... # # and of course, there are other ideas, like: # # removing the driveshafts # and ignition coil are also good deterents... :) # # hey, maybe if we flatten all four tires and then refill them before # driving off? :) # # I won't share any of my other ideas... :) # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # there's a solution for every problem; # problem is can we afford the solution? # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Jim Blair wrote: # # # http://simjack.com:8185/cargard.htm # # The only thing that makes anything with a GM ignition column harder to # steal! # # # # # # From: john # # Subject: Re: xj: Missing 90 Cherokee, Black, pls help! # # # # while not revealing HOW TO steal an XJ (at least not on list...) # # what would be splendid is information on how NOT to have one # # stolen... # # # # my '91 Grand Wagoneer was stolen out of the PO's garage, a locked # # garage... with a club attached to the wheel!!!! the thieves cut # # the steering wheel to remove the club... # # # # john # # _________________________________________________________________ # # Watch ^SCause Effect,^T a show about real people making a real difference. # # http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause # # # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Man, you people make me want to go kick an iMac." - Response to a Mac FanBoy on the critical Leopard "move" bug - --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:50:17 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: RE: preventing theft of our jeeps only problem with this is the possible scenario of you or someone you know, who wasn't trying to steal it, but drive it with permission or sit in the car waiting for you and doesn't realize that the system will do this... case in point... we were up north window shopping and such in a small town... I had the window rolled down far enough so someone with long slender arms (like my wife) could actually reach in and open the door... she did and set off the factory grand cherokee alarm... I was around the corner getting an espresso and wondering whos alarm was going off... :) had it been a more serious/aggressive alarm system the outcome wouldn't have been just embarrassment... and a chewing out. ;) your friends, family and kids may not understand either... having safeguards to protect the friendlies would greatly complicate it... it's better to work toward disabling the vehicle from moving under it's own power... neutural safety switches, ignition circuits, fuel systems, locking brakes, locking steering columns, maybe some hydraulic jacks that lift the vehicle ever so slightly off the ground (handy for those trails too... ;) anyway, then there is always the guy with the tiltbed truck to haul it off by winching it up... if someone really wants it, they'll get it... just think how easy to move it with a forklift... :) once you get it into a shop you have oh so many options... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Ed Kummel wrote: # Perhaps... # but I'm of the mind that if I can't have it, nobody will! # # I did talk to a lawyer about just this kind of thing many, many years ago...I asked him is there anyway I can cause harm to someone atttempting to steal my vehicle. # He couldn't come up with a method so I did some brainstorming and came up with this: # Some states do not have a law that limits how loud a warning device can be (ie. a theft alarm) At the time of my asking, they didn't have the technology yet, but they were working on it. Use a directed sound beam (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2003-05-19-hss_x.htm) # and have it pointing inside the vehicle about where the driver would be situated during a vehicle theft. As the alarm is announcing the theft of your vehicle, the intensity of the sound pointing towards the illegal driver causes permanent damage to the thief, and or death. # The lawyer I talked to admitted that since an alarm is a warning device and that if a perpetrator did not heed the warning of the alarm and vacate the premesis, it becomes a matter of the thief not taking the necessary precautions based on the instructions given by the fact that the alarm is sounding and therefore is responsible for their own actions. Unfortunatly, if the perpetrator doesn't die in the commission of a felony (ie the theft of your vehicle) there is always the possiblity that the thief can file a civil suit against you...that's why I suggest that at the time that your alarm goes off, your power door locks mysteriously fail...perhaps the thief "damaged" the mechanism which prevented his speedy exit from the vehicle that was emitting the warning signal! # # The lawyer said that while this is skating of thin ice, it may be legal barring Mens Rea. As long as you maintain that this system was designed solely as an indicator to potential thiefs that they had indeed tripped an alarm, and an indicator to you that the alarm had been tripped, that it was their choice to ignore the warning...the consequences of their actions lay solely on their choice. The laywer did say that you needed to give the thief a means of escape if deadly force is to be used....but I contend that the alarm is not deadly force, just a very, very loud warning device! # Ed # web/gadget guru (ianal) # # john wrote: # the goal is to keep the jeep intact... :) # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # there's a solution for every problem; # problem is can we afford the solution? # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Gary wrote: # # # Your other ideas might be along my ideas as I am all for a claymore mine or # # bouncing betty under the front seat, they would be able to steal it but you # # would certainly find out who and where it ended up at...... # # # # -----Original Message----- # # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # # Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:46 PM # # To: xj # # Cc: fsj list # # Subject: xj: preventing theft of our jeeps # # # # interesting device... # # # # also interesting that they didn't tear out the ignition on my '91 GW... # # probably because they found the keys in the house... but not the key # # to the club... weird... # # # # might be a well spent $60... but like Alan, who would expect your # # ride to be swiped in a church parking lot??? # # # # do alarm systems help? they're going off all the time so who even looks??? # # # # # # But, I prefer other electronics countermeasures... :) # # # # one idea is to have a bank of switches on the dash... use a binary # # code to latch the correct combination in... wrong code sets off # # the horn/lights/disables ignition, etc. :) # # # # critical stuff is routed through the right combination of switches... # # things that would prevent under the hood hotwiring... custom wiring # # and routing would also help... anything that throughs these dirt bags # # off the trail is the plan... # # # # and of course, there are other ideas, like: # # # # removing the driveshafts # # and ignition coil are also good deterents... :) # # # # hey, maybe if we flatten all four tires and then refill them before # # driving off? :) # # # # I won't share any of my other ideas... :) # # # # ----- # # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # there's a solution for every problem; # # problem is can we afford the solution? # # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # # # # On Tue, 8 Jan 2008, Jim Blair wrote: # # # # # http://simjack.com:8185/cargard.htm # # # The only thing that makes anything with a GM ignition column harder to # # steal! # # # # # # # # # From: john # # # Subject: Re: xj: Missing 90 Cherokee, Black, pls help! # # # # # # while not revealing HOW TO steal an XJ (at least not on list...) # # # what would be splendid is information on how NOT to have one # # # stolen... # # # # # # my '91 Grand Wagoneer was stolen out of the PO's garage, a locked # # # garage... with a club attached to the wheel!!!! the thieves cut # # # the steering wheel to remove the club... # # # # # # john # # # _________________________________________________________________ # # # Watch ^SCause Effect,^T a show about real people making a real difference. # # # http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause # # # # # # # # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # "Man, you people make me want to go kick an iMac." # - Response to a Mac FanBoy on the critical Leopard "move" bug # # --------------------------------- # Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:33:23 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: xj: Missing 90 Cherokee, Black, pls help! I had someone brag on about those, until I walked around back where he parked it and drove it up front 35 seconds later! From: "Gary" Subject: RE: xj: Missing 90 Cherokee, Black, pls help! I use a brake locking device, they can steal it but it will be hard to stop at the lights.... _________________________________________________________________ Watch ^SCause Effect,^T a show about real people making a real difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_watchcause ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:47:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: Re: Re: preventing theft of our jeeps When I was first learning to drive, I took the family Oldsmobile out on a date. Unfortunatly, I left the lights on (it was a 1972 Cutlass) which killed the battery. Not a big problem because I had jumper cables. Unfortunatly, they didn't work for some reason. After my date called to say she will be late coming home, I called my dad and after the requisit 30 minute a$$ chewing for being so stupid, he called a tow company which towed the car to a local repair shop. They found that the fusable link wire had fried, They said that this *sometimes* happens when a vehicle is jumpstarted...which lessened the level of stupidity on me from my dad. Later when I inheritted the car, I remembered this little lesson and utilized it by putting in a hidden underdash switch. Flipping the switch on it's own didn't do anything...but if you turned on the highbeams that triggered a relay which the switch then reversed the connections for the fusable link and disabled the vehicle. You re-enabled the fusable link the same way by turning on the highbeams and flipping the switch in the other direction...flipping the toggle towards the front of the car is "go" and towards the back of the car is "no-go" Super simple and yet impossible to defeat unless you knew the correct sequence of events! Ed web/gadget guru David Smith wrote: too bad your link is myspace -- it'd be much easier if we could see those pics without creating an account or whatever. with the kind of thefts these are, i wonder if the xj had an alarm installed? some people don't believe in alarms, i have an alarm on my zj, personally i know how easy it is to defeat (I've had to do it myself), but the little blinky light seems to serve more as a deterrent than anything.. thieves move on to vehicles without. on that note i have a fairly high quality alarm installed, a clifford with two-way remote. it has starter cut, etc, again its not hard to bypass due to the installation location, but at least it doesnt go off every time a big truck/noisy vehicle drives by, which is the major downfall of most cheap alarms ive ever seen. the whole punch in a code idea is a really neat anti-vehicle theft idea, especially if well implemented. i've thought of making my own, where the control pad has no actual wiring that has to do with the ignition but instead communicates with a real module under the hood or elsewhere that can conveniently relay-off an important wire somewhere. my 2c On 1/8/08, Jesse Barbieri wrote: > > Believe it or not, my 1990 BMW 325IX has an onboard computer which I can > select a code, and have to type it in before I can start the > engine. Three > wrong entries will cut the fuel pump and sound the horn. I don't know > exactly when they first utilized this computer, but I did see one in a > 1986 > 325. Also, I can change the code each time after I start the engine. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Man, you people make me want to go kick an iMac." - Response to a Mac FanBoy on the critical Leopard "move" bug - --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:31:08 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: Re: preventing theft of our jeeps got a schematic? :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Ed Kummel wrote: # They found that the fusable link wire had fried, They said that this *sometimes* happens when a vehicle is jumpstarted...which lessened the level of stupidity on me from my dad. # Later when I inheritted the car, I remembered this little lesson and utilized it by putting in a hidden underdash switch. Flipping the switch on it's own didn't do anything...but if you turned on the highbeams that triggered a relay which the switch then reversed the connections for the fusable link and disabled the vehicle. You re-enabled the fusable link the same way by turning on the highbeams and flipping the switch in the other direction...flipping the toggle towards the front of the car is "go" and towards the back of the car is "no-go" # Super simple and yet impossible to defeat unless you knew the correct sequence of events! # Ed # web/gadget guru ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2723 *************************