From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Oct 6 13:51:40 2008 From: xj-digest xj-digest Monday, October 6 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2878 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: starter issues - '91 XJ - possible stuck relay Re: xj: starter issues - '91 XJ - possible stuck relay xj: snohomish monster carport update XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:10:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: starter issues - '91 XJ - possible stuck relay Hmmm, Are we sure that it's a run-away starter? While I've never seen this on a Jeep before, I did see something similar with my buddy's 390 Ford Truck. The thing would start (sounded funny, but started, so no worries) then as you began to drive down the road, it would sound as if the flywheel is grinding against something. turns out there were two things wrong here... The starter engage gear spring was weak and was allowing the gear to move slightly The second thing is that that the starter needed to be shimmed. Seems that the replacement starter we put in had a clearance problem, (starters on this vehicle are situated front to back) what happened is that if you accelerated quickly (which as young gear heads do quite often) the force of the launch would move the starter gear slightly, which would get dragged in (by the suction of the flywheel gears?) and would grind against the flywheel...Weirdest thing...we replaced the spring, but that only fixed part of the problem...shimming the starter got things to work correctly! Ed web/gadget guru - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Never mind that we just had an incredibly cold winter in North America and huge record snowfalls across the continent. As Al Gore said to a bunch of us the other day, these record cold spells and record snowfalls are actually caused by global warming. To which Jerry York replied, 'Jeez then I guess we better stop this global warming before we all f**king freeze to death, eh?' - - 'Fake' Steve Jobs 3/24/08 blog entry - --- On Thu, 10/2/08, john wrote: From: john Subject: xj: starter issues - '91 XJ - possible stuck relay To: Moontanman-at-aol.com Cc: "xj-list" Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 5:51 PM Michael, this sounds like a stuck starter relay or a stuck bendix on the starter motor. when you replaced the starter did you have the starter checked? I can't remember if there is a firewall mounted starter relay on the xj or not, think there is... if so, that's probably shorted and causing voltage to go to the starter all the time... it's a direct connect from the battery to the starter. the mechanic that said you had a short in the ignition wiring that gets worse when it's warm is either an idiot, on drugs or failing to communicate the issue to you in terms that another mechanic can understand. :) Let's assume the best and it's the latter, since this guy may be one of your friends or very large and holds grudges. ;) Anyway, this is not an uncommon starter /relay type problem... so here's what we'll do to check this out. 1) disconnect the battery (if not already), ignition off, key out... 2) find the starter relay on the firewall, probably on the pass side can't find a picture that shows it... have worked on so many vehicles and no xj's in the drive right now... ;) anyway, disconnect the large lead that goes to the starter, it's probably red. 3) reconnect the battery (ignition off, key out) 4) with a voltmeter or test light, touch the bolt on the relay that held the starter cable. IF YOU HAVE POWER THERE the relay is most likely bad. But wait, there could indeed be a short... 5) IF you had power on the starter line, NOW disconnect one of the smaller leads on the relay. Check again... still have power? IF SO it is definetly the RELAY. If not, then check the smaller read lead to see if it has power... if it does this is where your mechanic failed to communicate. My guess is that if you have power with the key off to the starter it'll be there when you pull the small leads... try smacking the relay with something, it may release. I'm willing to bet a cup of coffee that it's the relay... It's unlikely you have a short, unless a band of renegade idiots have worked on this thing, it's been subjected to submergence or been hacked on by car thieves or a teenager wanting to add a boom box. ;) posting to the list for future help info for others experiencing runaway starters... Oh yeah, if the relay stuff checks out, then the bendix is stuck on the starter engaging it all the time... if this is the case your parts guy has the same possible three-way afflication that your mechanic has. ;) (I hope I never meet these guys... luckily (for me) they're all on the wrong coast. ;) in other news, found this page: http://wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/Engines/xj-starting-problems.html happy hunting. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Moontanman-at-aol.com wrote: # John, I know you get tired of helping me but I have ignition problems with # my Cherokee, 1991 Cherokee with a 4.0. # It started a while back, the starter started to drag while the motor was # running. It would come and go and finally the starter wouldn't engage to start # the engine any more so I put a new starter in. But it kept doing it, it got # worse, when the engine is cold the starter worked ok but I didn't notice this # at first. I changed out the electronic module on the steering column but as # soon as the engine was warm it began to engage the starter again. By this time # it would be making an ungodly noise, deafening to say the least. The # ignition switch was loose and worn so I replaced it. Again it ran fine until the # engine warmed up and it began again. This time it was horrible, I didn't get # five miles away from home and I had to turn back. The engine stopped running as # pulled into the drive way but the starter kept turning the motor over. I # finally had to disconnect the battery to get the starter to stop turning the # engine over. I also seem to have lost five gallons of gas in that five mile or # so drive but no signs of leaking gas anywhere. What on earth could be causing # this stuff, it got worse over time and now I can't even turn the ignition # switch on without the starter turning the engine over and I have to disconnect # the battery to get it to stop. I can hook up the battery without the starter # trying to crank the engine but as soon as I turn the key on it starts turning # the engine over and I have to disconnect the battery to get it to stop. A # local mechanic told me I have a short in the ignition wiring and that is why it # got worse when the engine was warm. He says it's probably under the hood. # That seems like an awfully large area, I need it narrowed down a little bit or # to know if something else is wrong. # # # Michael Hissom # aurea mediocritas # # # # # **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial # challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and # calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:10:52 EDT From: Moontanman-at-aol.com Subject: Re: xj: starter issues - '91 XJ - possible stuck relay In a message dated 10/2/2008 6:11:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tech_ed-at-yahoo.com writes: Hmmm, Are we sure that it's a run-away starter? While I've never seen this on a Jeep before, I did see something similar with my buddy's 390 Ford Truck. The thing would start (sounded funny, but started, so no worries) then as you began to drive down the road, it would sound as if the flywheel is grinding against something. turns out there were two things wrong here... The starter engage gear spring was weak and was allowing the gear to move slightly This problem has been ongoing and slowly getting worse before I put a new starter on the jeep. It does indeed sound like the flywheel grinding against something, it is loud!!! but it doesn't start until the jeep gets warmed up. At first it was just for a few seconds every once in a while, It has slowly gotten worse over time and is now totally keeping the jeep from running. At some point when the ignition switch was turned on the starter would engage without turning the key to the start position, I changed out the electric module on the steering column but the problem continued and slowly got worse, it was really bad and my ignition switch was less than in good shape so a changed it but the problem continued after the jeep warmed up. I drove it about five miles and it again started to make noise like the trump of doom, I went home and it ran out of gas in my drive way, I had just put five gallons in the tank when I started the drive. Less than 10 miles on the new ignition switch and the five gallons of gas. Now when you turn the ignition switch the engine begins to turn over and no matter where you turn the key switch it will not turn off. I have to disconnect the battery to get it to stop turning over. But when I reconnect the battery it is ok until I turn the switch again. Michael Hissom aurea mediocritas **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: snohomish monster carport update http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/10-Oct-05-carport-garden-cars/ALL.html check out the silly mouse on the panel... mark sees it almost every time he uses it... rebuilding the carport... getting ready for the next popcorn project... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2878 *************************