From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Nov 3 13:14:55 2008 From: xj-digest xj-digest Monday, November 3 2008 Volume 01 : Number 2895 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # You should factor more into that reevaluation than just materials and # labor costs. # There is some value in not using conventional petroleum diesel. The # question is, just how much is that worth to you? Will you only use # veggie oil or biodiesel if it is cheaper than conventional? # The choice is certainly a lot easier if it also saves one money. # I honestly don't know what my threshold would be, but I'm currently # diesel-less and don't need to decide. ;-) # Alec # On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:17 AM, john wrote: # > our biodiesel costs have jumped to $1.75 because of chemical price increases... # > I'm getting tired of sloshing wvo around... if fuel prices came down that low # > I might just go back on the pump... ;) guess I need to do the math on this one... # > right now regular is under $2.49, Diesel is still at $3.19 ############################################################################## Yep, running biodiesel has additional costs on the vehicle as well... ...one must replace seals and rubber lines with Viton. if you don't you'll have leaks and possible stalling issues... this was a big issue on my 6.2L Grand Wagoneer... then you have to deal with air in the system for a while... :( If you're going to go BioDiesel, you need to build it right first or face frustration... of course how many know about these issues before they start? :) Then there is the time running around chasing waste veggie oil with folks that don't speak english... korean or spanish typically... the folks that speak english natively prove to be the most unreliable as sources... they will just not call or give the oil to someone else... or they change management and quit giving it away or close down... lost good sources that way... Even if you're willing to pay for it there is always the issue that they may sign up with a commercial outfit for regular pickups and less hassles. I always try to provide prompt service, but there are times when I'm out of town and have to send a friend or my son... if I don't respond to their call I risk losing the oil... Then there is the time spent moving it about to get it processed... since I've actually burned chicken noodle soup, I'm not going to do my own processing of biodiesel... and filtering wvo is a messy proposition and involves a lot of effort to make it work in the vehicle... have found that the seals at a minimum need to be replaced... hoses seem to be ok... but then there is another problem, one can't blend wvo with biodiesel... only Diesel... so one needs a separate tank for straight WVO, that has to be heated... so one must decide if they're going to run BioDiesel or WVO/blended Diesel... you can't do both in the same tank. Building a second heated tank and fuel solenoid setup isn't that bad... so far I've found tanks for less than $200, the solenoid is hovering around $75, the heaters are the variable at this point... do I use Jason's design and risk springing a leak... do I buy an electrical heater and pump? and then where do I mount the tank? Inside? that could be messy... outside, then I have to deal with water contamination... and mounting... so I'm looking at about $500 in parts and at least a full day or weekend fabricating and installing, while I love doing stuff like this I need to step back and do a flippin' reality check... how much pump Diesel could I buy for $500? And figuring that I plan on replacing the Blazer with a Jeep at my earliest opportunity... should I even bother? :) ...and of course I have to deal with the issue of filtering the WVO... preferrably before putting it in the vehicle... of course I will add filters to both tanks in addition to the main stock filters... I've clogged filters before running wvo and used oil... not fun... it's also embarrassing and can be expensive if you're out on the road... Filtering WVO is just not a lot of fun... you can't ever get the buckets clean, and any spillage turns into the nastiest, slimiest, goo imaginable in our climate... You learn to walk very carefully so your legs remain under you... and you watch where you walk afterwards... going in the house wearing those shows may result in a death sentence, or a least a very serious scolding and additional labor. :) Rather than building a separate tank I could just go back to filtering my WVO and blending about 25 to 30%... need to do the math... (will do that later). So, why do we do it? I mean why do reasonably successful reasonably paid folks do the bioDiesel or WVO thing? If you figure our time it doesn't make sense... at all. sense or cents. ;) But there is something rewarding about being able to fill up your tank in your own driveway, or a rest stop or where ever... and of course there is the "green" aspect of using a waste product that burns cleaner too. And the smell of the exhaust is great. And it's about independence... not being dependent on a potentially unreliable and expensive source is also quite pleasing... if it weren't for the fact that we were dependent on the chemicals that appear to have the same issues as pump products in costs... :( So, do I build my J10 with an auxillary tank and a Diesel? Need to think about this... I'm not eager to go with a gas engine. It would be a lot easier, but I prefer Diesel. If I were going to go with a gas Jeep I'd prefer an XJ or a WJ... but there will always be a part of me that will want to convert it to a Diesel... I've been so afflicted by the Diesel bug since 1983. :) So, the question is... WVO or BioDiesel? stay tuned... firing up Excel... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:45:26 -0600 From: "David Bierschank" Subject: Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects BTW..... Reg Gas is under $1.90/gal around here and falling...... I saw three stations in my 2 mile drive at lunch that were at $1.88. Sometimes it's good to live in the oil patch. David On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 12:09 PM, john wrote: > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: > # You should factor more into that reevaluation than just materials and > # labor costs. > # There is some value in not using conventional petroleum diesel. The > # question is, just how much is that worth to you? Will you only use > # veggie oil or biodiesel if it is cheaper than conventional? > # The choice is certainly a lot easier if it also saves one money. > # I honestly don't know what my threshold would be, but I'm currently > # diesel-less and don't need to decide. ;-) > # Alec > # On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:17 AM, john wrote: > # > our biodiesel costs have jumped to $1.75 because of chemical price > increases... > # > I'm getting tired of sloshing wvo around... if fuel prices came down > that low > # > I might just go back on the pump... ;) guess I need to do the math on > this one... > # > right now regular is under $2.49, Diesel is still at $3.19 > > ############################################################################## > > Yep, running biodiesel has additional costs on the vehicle as well... > ...one must replace seals and rubber lines with Viton. if you don't > you'll have leaks and possible stalling issues... this was a big issue > on my 6.2L Grand Wagoneer... then you have to deal with air in the system > for a while... :( If you're going to go BioDiesel, you need to build it > right first or face frustration... of course how many know about these > issues > before they start? :) > > Then there is the time running around chasing waste veggie oil with folks > that > don't speak english... korean or spanish typically... the folks that > speak english natively prove to be the most unreliable as sources... they > will just not call or give the oil to someone else... or they change > management > and quit giving it away or close down... lost good sources that way... > > Even if you're willing to pay for it there is always the issue that they > may > sign up with a commercial outfit for regular pickups and less hassles. I > always try to provide prompt service, but there are times when I'm out of > town and have to send a friend or my son... if I don't respond to their > call I risk losing the oil... > > Then there is the time spent moving it about to get it processed... since > I've actually burned chicken noodle soup, I'm not going to do my own > processing > of biodiesel... and filtering wvo is a messy proposition and involves a lot > of effort to make it work in the vehicle... have found that the seals at a > minimum need to be replaced... hoses seem to be ok... but then there is > another problem, one can't blend wvo with biodiesel... only Diesel... so > one needs a separate tank for straight WVO, that has to be heated... so > one must decide if they're going to run BioDiesel or WVO/blended Diesel... > you can't do both in the same tank. > > Building a second heated tank and fuel solenoid setup isn't that bad... so > far > I've found tanks for less than $200, the solenoid is hovering around $75, > the > heaters are the variable at this point... do I use Jason's design and risk > springing a leak... do I buy an electrical heater and pump? and then where > do I mount the tank? Inside? that could be messy... outside, then I have > to deal with water contamination... and mounting... so I'm looking at about > $500 in parts and at least a full day or weekend fabricating and > installing, > while I love doing stuff like this I need to step back and do a flippin' > reality > check... how much pump Diesel could I buy for $500? And figuring that I > plan on replacing the Blazer with a Jeep at my earliest opportunity... > should > I even bother? :) > > ...and of course I have to deal with the issue of filtering the WVO... > preferrably > before putting it in the vehicle... of course I will add filters to both > tanks > in addition to the main stock filters... I've clogged filters before > running > wvo and used oil... not fun... it's also embarrassing and can be expensive > if > you're out on the road... > > Filtering WVO is just not a lot of fun... you can't ever get the buckets > clean, > and any spillage turns into the nastiest, slimiest, goo imaginable in our > climate... > You learn to walk very carefully so your legs remain under you... and you > watch > where you walk afterwards... going in the house wearing those shows may > result > in a death sentence, or a least a very serious scolding and additional > labor. :) > > Rather than building a separate tank I could just go back to filtering my > WVO > and blending about 25 to 30%... need to do the math... (will do that > later). > > So, why do we do it? I mean why do reasonably successful reasonably paid > folks > do the bioDiesel or WVO thing? If you figure our time it doesn't make > sense... at > all. sense or cents. ;) But there is something rewarding about being able > to > fill up your tank in your own driveway, or a rest stop or where ever... and > of > course there is the "green" aspect of using a waste product that burns > cleaner > too. And the smell of the exhaust is great. And it's about > independence... not > being dependent on a potentially unreliable and expensive source is also > quite > pleasing... if it weren't for the fact that we were dependent on the > chemicals > that appear to have the same issues as pump products in costs... :( > > So, do I build my J10 with an auxillary tank and a Diesel? Need to think > about > this... I'm not eager to go with a gas engine. It would be a lot easier, > but > I prefer Diesel. If I were going to go with a gas Jeep I'd prefer an XJ or > a WJ... but there will always be a part of me that will want to convert it > to a Diesel... I've been so afflicted by the Diesel bug since 1983. :) > > So, the question is... WVO or BioDiesel? stay tuned... firing up Excel... > ;) > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - -- David Bierschank Okiebinder okc67mustang-at-gmail.com dbier-at-att.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:03:51 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects yeah, but we have trees... and grass... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Bierschank wrote: # BTW..... Reg Gas is under $1.90/gal around here and falling...... I saw # three stations in my 2 mile drive at lunch that were at $1.88. # Sometimes it's good to live in the oil patch. # # David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:20:43 -0600 From: "David Bierschank" Subject: Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects I said sometimes...... believe me, I would gladly trade. On the other hand, we do have trees and grass, not as nice as yours. The dust bowl was almost 70 years ago, we are no longer an Indian territory, and I don't own a horse, but some stereotype's are hard to break. ;-} David Oh, we also don't have Volcano's...... On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:03 PM, john wrote: > yeah, but we have trees... > and grass... ;) > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Bierschank wrote: > > # BTW..... Reg Gas is under $1.90/gal around here and falling...... I saw > # three stations in my 2 mile drive at lunch that were at $1.88. > # Sometimes it's good to live in the oil patch. > # > # David > - -- David Bierschank Okiebinder okc67mustang-at-gmail.com dbier-at-att.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 13:00:00 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects volcanos are beautiful... the key is to live on high ground between them... :) at a safe distance... it's not so much the volcano you worry about but the mud flows and ensuing floods... of course there is the issue of ash... it'll tear up a car's engine pretty quick without a nylon/panty hose over the inlet... :) and you forgot about the earthquakes, tsunamis and liberals... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Bierschank wrote: # I said sometimes...... believe me, I would gladly trade. On the other # hand, we do have trees and grass, not as nice as yours. The dust bowl was # almost 70 years ago, we are no longer an Indian territory, and I don't own # a horse, but some stereotype's are hard to break. ;-} # # David # Oh, we also don't have Volcano's...... # # # # On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:03 PM, john wrote: # # > yeah, but we have trees... # > and grass... ;) # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # > http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Bierschank wrote: # > # > # BTW..... Reg Gas is under $1.90/gal around here and falling...... I saw # > # three stations in my 2 mile drive at lunch that were at $1.88. # > # Sometimes it's good to live in the oil patch. # > # # > # David # > # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:14:09 -0600 From: "David Bierschank" Subject: Re: xj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects Yeah.... The list goes on and on...... maybe Oklahoma is not all that bad after all..... I have been a lot of places, but I am always happy to get back to Oklahoma... tornado's and all. ( I actually do like watching tornado's ("at a safe distance")). David On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 3:00 PM, john wrote: > volcanos are beautiful... the key is to live on high ground > between them... :) at a safe distance... > > it's not so much the volcano you worry about but the mud flows and ensuing > floods... > of course there is the issue of ash... it'll tear up a car's engine pretty > quick > without a nylon/panty hose over the inlet... :) > > and you forgot about the earthquakes, tsunamis and liberals... ;) > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Bierschank wrote: > > # I said sometimes...... believe me, I would gladly trade. On the other > # hand, we do have trees and grass, not as nice as yours. The dust bowl > was > # almost 70 years ago, we are no longer an Indian territory, and I don't > own > # a horse, but some stereotype's are hard to break. ;-} > # > # David > # Oh, we also don't have Volcano's...... > # > # > # > # On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:03 PM, john wrote: > # > # > yeah, but we have trees... > # > and grass... ;) > # > > # > ----- > # > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: > http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > > # > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > # > http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com > # > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > > # > > # > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, David Bierschank wrote: > # > > # > # BTW..... Reg Gas is under $1.90/gal around here and falling...... I > saw > # > # three stations in my 2 mile drive at lunch that were at $1.88. > # > # Sometimes it's good to live in the oil patch. > # > # > # > # David > # > > # > # > # > # > - -- David Bierschank Okiebinder okc67mustang-at-gmail.com dbier-at-att.net ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2895 *************************