From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Feb 23 15:45:41 2009 From: xj-digest xj-digest Monday, February 23 2009 Volume 01 : Number 2960 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: warped brake rotors - torque those wheels on properly! Re: xj: warped brake rotors - torque those wheels on properly! Re: xj: warped brake rotors - get power slotted rotors Re: xj: warped brake rotors - torque those wheels on properly! Re: xj: warped brake rotors - get power slotted rotors XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:58:04 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: warped brake rotors - torque those wheels on properly! yes, torquing evenly is important, but with the banning of asbestos there is much more heat in the rotors now than before. the slots help cool the rotors by providing more surface area. driving technique will also help keep them from warping... avoiding long down hill runs with the brakes on... rapid stops are also a bad way of building up heat... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: # problem is rumored to be that because of the design of the rotors, # warping is typically caused after heat cycling with uneven torquing of # the wheel lug nuts. i've found that the only times i warped rotors # (twice!) was when someone else put the wheels on and didn't torque them # evenly. (note that apparently the issue isn't thought to be as much # about how tight, but how *evenly* they're torqued.) with proper # installation techniques, brakes last many 10s of thousands of miles. # # i now also use PowerSlot rotors and find they're perhaps a bit more # tolerant, but although they have their benefits, they also come with # their own set of considerations. (downsides: they're a good deal more # expensive, PowerSlot is very specific about what pads they want to # warranty the use of their rotors with, and they end up not having quite # as good of an initial first 'bite' when cold as the stock setup. # upsides: they don't fade as much under heavy use while on extended # descents and/or with a load, and dry off quicker and more # evenly/progressively after getting wet.) # # i now carry my own torque wrench with me whenever i'm having any # work done that involves reinstalling the wheels, and don't drive any # further than around a couple of corners before i stop and check the lug # nut torque myself. by doing this, i've found that no matter what the # shop monkeys say about how they torque the wheels on or have their # wrenches calibrated or use torque sticks to ensure proper torquing, # they're out of spec more often than not. # # bottom line; nobody cares as much about these 'little things' as # you're probably likely to when it's going to be you who has to pay for # the consequences. check 'em yourself and retighten them periodically # (especially if you have alloy wheels!) until they're found to be staying # fully seated at full torque. # # # cheers! # e # # # john wrote: # > easy solution... # > # > get power slotted rotors. :) # > (don't get cross-drilled, just slotted) # > # > http://www.powerslot.com/ # > # > ? http://www.buybrakes.com/powerslot/apps-Jeep.html # > # > I've bought them from performance products, but a google search on # > power slot doesn't list them right away... # > # > # > DO NOT reinstall factory OEM parts... the problem will persist, unless # > they've changed them, doubt they have... # > # > john # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Potter, Tom E wrote: # > # > # John, # > # # > # # > # # > # I am having another problem with my granddaughter's 2001 Jeep Grand # > # Cherokee Laredo. When she brakes above 40 mph, the steering vibrates. # > # >From what I gathered on the Internet, this is a systemic problem with # > # these models. It seems the rotors warp easily. I also gathered that # > # there is no CURE or the problem other than replacing rotors and pads # > # every 10k miles. This solution is unacceptable to me. # > # # > # # > # # > # Have you had this problem? What was your solution? # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:29:53 -0800 From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: xj: warped brake rotors - torque those wheels on properly! huh? how would *removing* surface provide more surface? (i've read several theories as to why slotting rotors is helpful, but none of them come close to anything like that.) is that what you really meant to say? please explain,... ;-) cheers! e john wrote: > yes, torquing evenly is important, but with the banning of asbestos > there is much more heat in the rotors now than before. > > the slots help cool the rotors by providing more surface area. > > driving technique will also help keep them from warping... avoiding > long down hill runs with the brakes on... rapid stops are also > a bad way of building up heat... > > john > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: > > # problem is rumored to be that because of the design of the rotors, > # warping is typically caused after heat cycling with uneven torquing of > # the wheel lug nuts. i've found that the only times i warped rotors > # (twice!) was when someone else put the wheels on and didn't torque them > # evenly. (note that apparently the issue isn't thought to be as much > # about how tight, but how *evenly* they're torqued.) with proper > # installation techniques, brakes last many 10s of thousands of miles. > # > # i now also use PowerSlot rotors and find they're perhaps a bit more > # tolerant, but although they have their benefits, they also come with > # their own set of considerations. (downsides: they're a good deal more > # expensive, PowerSlot is very specific about what pads they want to > # warranty the use of their rotors with, and they end up not having quite > # as good of an initial first 'bite' when cold as the stock setup. > # upsides: they don't fade as much under heavy use while on extended > # descents and/or with a load, and dry off quicker and more > # evenly/progressively after getting wet.) > # > # i now carry my own torque wrench with me whenever i'm having any > # work done that involves reinstalling the wheels, and don't drive any > # further than around a couple of corners before i stop and check the lug > # nut torque myself. by doing this, i've found that no matter what the > # shop monkeys say about how they torque the wheels on or have their > # wrenches calibrated or use torque sticks to ensure proper torquing, > # they're out of spec more often than not. > # > # bottom line; nobody cares as much about these 'little things' as > # you're probably likely to when it's going to be you who has to pay for > # the consequences. check 'em yourself and retighten them periodically > # (especially if you have alloy wheels!) until they're found to be staying > # fully seated at full torque. > # > # > # cheers! > # e > # > # > # john wrote: > # > easy solution... > # > > # > get power slotted rotors. :) > # > (don't get cross-drilled, just slotted) > # > > # > http://www.powerslot.com/ > # > > # > ? http://www.buybrakes.com/powerslot/apps-Jeep.html > # > > # > I've bought them from performance products, but a google search on > # > power slot doesn't list them right away... > # > > # > > # > DO NOT reinstall factory OEM parts... the problem will persist, unless > # > they've changed them, doubt they have... > # > > # > john > # > > # > > # > ----- > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > > # > > # > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Potter, Tom E wrote: > # > > # > # John, > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # I am having another problem with my granddaughter's 2001 Jeep Grand > # > # Cherokee Laredo. When she brakes above 40 mph, the steering vibrates. > # > # >From what I gathered on the Internet, this is a systemic problem with > # > # these models. It seems the rotors warp easily. I also gathered that > # > # there is no CURE or the problem other than replacing rotors and pads > # > # every 10k miles. This solution is unacceptable to me. > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # Have you had this problem? What was your solution? > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:38:48 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: warped brake rotors - get power slotted rotors And don't forget about the recall notice on JGC stamped steel rotors... Here is a page I put up on this problem: http://www.tek-ed.com/gallery/jeep/brakes/thumb0001.htm If you click on the pictures, you will get bigger images! Ed web/gadget guru - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ By Richard Feynman, Physicist, Nobel winner (1918-1988) "There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." - --- On Mon, 2/23/09, john wrote: From: john Subject: xj: warped brake rotors - get power slotted rotors To: "xj-list" , WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com, "diesel-benz list" , "Potter, Tom E" Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 1:36 PM easy solution... get power slotted rotors. :) (don't get cross-drilled, just slotted) http://www.powerslot.com/ ? http://www.buybrakes.com/powerslot/apps-Jeep.html I've bought them from performance products, but a google search on power slot doesn't list them right away... DO NOT reinstall factory OEM parts... the problem will persist, unless they've changed them, doubt they have... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Potter, Tom E wrote: # John, # # # # I am having another problem with my granddaughter's 2001 Jeep Grand # Cherokee Laredo. When she brakes above 40 mph, the steering vibrates. # >From what I gathered on the Internet, this is a systemic problem with # these models. It seems the rotors warp easily. I also gathered that # there is no CURE or the problem other than replacing rotors and pads # every 10k miles. This solution is unacceptable to me. # # # # Have you had this problem? What was your solution? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:43:05 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: warped brake rotors - torque those wheels on properly! no, by cutting slots in the rotor you INCREASE surface area, and permit gasses and water a way of escaping under the pads... if you look at a cross section of the rotor you'll see the cuts create a valley... that valley increases the total surface area for heat transfer. Yes, it's less mass, but more surface area. check out some of the sites selling them, they'll have all the data. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: # huh? how would *removing* surface provide more surface? (i've read several # theories as to why slotting rotors is helpful, but none of them come close to # anything like that.) # is that what you really meant to say? please explain,... ;-) # # # cheers! # e # # # john wrote: # > yes, torquing evenly is important, but with the banning of asbestos # > there is much more heat in the rotors now than before. # > # > the slots help cool the rotors by providing more surface area. # > # > driving technique will also help keep them from warping... avoiding # > long down hill runs with the brakes on... rapid stops are also # > a bad way of building up heat... # > # > john # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: # > # > # problem is rumored to be that because of the design of the rotors, # > # warping is typically caused after heat cycling with uneven torquing of # > # the wheel lug nuts. i've found that the only times i warped rotors # > # (twice!) was when someone else put the wheels on and didn't torque them # > # evenly. (note that apparently the issue isn't thought to be as much about # > # how tight, but how *evenly* they're torqued.) with proper installation # > # techniques, brakes last many 10s of thousands of miles. # > # # > # i now also use PowerSlot rotors and find they're perhaps a bit more # > # tolerant, but although they have their benefits, they also come with # > # their own set of considerations. (downsides: they're a good deal more # > # expensive, PowerSlot is very specific about what pads they want to # > # warranty the use of their rotors with, and they end up not having quite # > # as good of an initial first 'bite' when cold as the stock setup. upsides: # > # they don't fade as much under heavy use while on extended descents and/or # > # with a load, and dry off quicker and more evenly/progressively after # > # getting wet.) # > # # > # i now carry my own torque wrench with me whenever i'm having any work # > # done that involves reinstalling the wheels, and don't drive any further # > # than around a couple of corners before i stop and check the lug nut # > # torque myself. by doing this, i've found that no matter what the shop # > # monkeys say about how they torque the wheels on or have their wrenches # > # calibrated or use torque sticks to ensure proper torquing, they're out of # > # spec more often than not. # > # # > # bottom line; nobody cares as much about these 'little things' as # > # you're probably likely to when it's going to be you who has to pay for # > # the consequences. check 'em yourself and retighten them periodically # > # (especially if you have alloy wheels!) until they're found to be staying # > # fully seated at full torque. # > # # > # # > # cheers! # > # e # > # # > # # > # john wrote: # > # > easy solution... # > # > # > # > get power slotted rotors. :) # > # > (don't get cross-drilled, just slotted) # > # > # > # > http://www.powerslot.com/ # > # > # > # > ? http://www.buybrakes.com/powerslot/apps-Jeep.html # > # > # > # > I've bought them from performance products, but a google search on # > # > power slot doesn't list them right away... # > # > # > # > # > # > DO NOT reinstall factory OEM parts... the problem will persist, unless # > # > they've changed them, doubt they have... # > # > # > # > john # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > # > # > # > On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Potter, Tom E wrote: # > # > # > # > # John, # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # I am having another problem with my granddaughter's 2001 Jeep Grand # > # > # Cherokee Laredo. When she brakes above 40 mph, the steering vibrates. # > # > # >From what I gathered on the Internet, this is a systemic problem # > # > # with # > # > # these models. It seems the rotors warp easily. I also gathered that # > # > # there is no CURE or the problem other than replacing rotors and pads # > # > # every 10k miles. This solution is unacceptable to me. # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # Have you had this problem? What was your solution? # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:45:08 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: warped brake rotors - get power slotted rotors wow... another reason not to like ZJs. my WJs have never had that issue... just warping. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Ed Kummel wrote: # And don't forget about the recall notice on JGC stamped steel rotors... # Here is a page I put up on this problem: # http://www.tek-ed.com/gallery/jeep/brakes/thumb0001.htm # # If you click on the pictures, you will get bigger images! # # Ed # web/gadget guru # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # By Richard Feynman, Physicist, Nobel winner (1918-1988) # # "There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's # only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call # them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." # # --- On Mon, 2/23/09, john wrote: # # # From: john # Subject: xj: warped brake rotors - get power slotted rotors # To: "xj-list" , WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com, "diesel-benz list" # , "Potter, Tom E" # Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 1:36 PM # # # easy solution... # # get power slotted rotors. :) # (don't get cross-drilled, just slotted) # # http://www.powerslot.com/ # # ? http://www.buybrakes.com/powerslot/apps-Jeep.html # # I've bought them from performance products, but a google search on # power slot doesn't list them right away... # # # DO NOT reinstall factory OEM parts... the problem will persist, unless # they've changed them, doubt they have... # # john # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Potter, Tom E wrote: # # # John, # # # # # # # # I am having another problem with my granddaughter's 2001 Jeep Grand # # Cherokee Laredo. When she brakes above 40 mph, the steering vibrates. # # >From what I gathered on the Internet, this is a systemic problem with # # these models. It seems the rotors warp easily. I also gathered that # # there is no CURE or the problem other than replacing rotors and pads # # every 10k miles. This solution is unacceptable to me. # # # # # # # # Have you had this problem? What was your solution? # ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2960 *************************