From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 10 13:51:57 2009 From: xj-digest xj-digest Monday, August 10 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3055 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: "How to ruin a perfectly good engine" (fwd) Re: xj: "How to ruin a perfectly good engine" (fwd) Re: xj: 96 Jeep ??? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 12:23:19 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: xj: "How to ruin a perfectly good engine" (fwd) got this info from a friend... this is a travesty... the CARS program is extremely poor stewardship that will negatively impact hundreds of thousands of auto parts recyclers, automotive enthusiasts and people that cannot afford a new car payment. recycling our resources is wise; destroying a perfectly good '99 engine because it gets 2 mpg less than a new one is utter and complete foolishness. this is simply not good stewardship of our resources, it benefits no one except the new car dealers, and then only in a very limited way. it makes little economic sense... those used engines could be used to stimulate recyclers, mechanics and help middle income families continue to economically get to and from work instead of being chained to a car payment. What this does is drive the price up of used parts and hurts those who can least afford it more. simply branding the titles of these vehicles so they cannot be placed back on the road but allowing the parts to be used makes economic sense for hundreds of thousands of average americans. what are our leaders thinking anyway? what a shameful waste... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Rigley The Killer App for Clunkers Breathes Fresh Life Into 'Liquid Glass' Rebate Program Prescribes Chemical to Stop Car Engines -- for Good; Mechanics 'Can't Wait' By KEVIN HELLIKER Robert Mueller deals in chemicals for a living -- things that can unstick glue, thin paint, make plastic -- but he'd never seen an order like the one he got for sodium silicate. The compound is typically used to repel bugs or seal concrete, but this buyer's online order form betrayed a whole different intent: "To Kill Car Engines." "That worried me a little, so I picked up the phone and called the gentleman," recalls Mr. Mueller, an owner of chemical-firm CQ Concepts Inc. in suburban Chicago. What Mr. Mueller discovered is that sodium silicate is the designated agent of death for cars surrendered under the federal cash-for-clunkers program. To receive government reimbursement, auto dealers who offer rebates on new cars in exchange for so-called clunkers must agree to "kill" the old models, using a method the government outlines in great detail in its 136-page manual for dealers: Drain the engine of oil and replace it with two quarts of a sodium-silicate solution. A warning adorns an engine disabled with sodium silicate. [image: clunker warning] "The heat of the operating engine then dehydrates the solution leaving solid sodium silicate distributed throughout the engine's oiled surfaces and moving parts," says the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration publication. "These solids quickly abrade the bearings causing the engine to seize while damaging the moving parts of the engine and coating all of the oil passages." In a nation packed with experts on how to keep cars running, the engine-killing powers of sodium silicate are a well-kept secret. "I, like, have so not even ever heard of this before," said Robert Lutz, new marketing chief and renowned "car guy" at General Motors Co., in an email. Often called liquid glass, sodium-silicate solution has been better known for being used to save motors rather than killing them: It is used to stop leaks in the gaskets that seal cylinder heads to engine blocks. At dealerships across America, mechanics accustomed to fixing engines are battling for the chance to ruin them. "Everybody wants to go first, so I'm probably going to have to make them draw straws," says Jim Burton of Randy Curnow Buick Pontiac GMC in Kansas City, Kan. As service manager, however, he might reserve that thrill for himself. "I can't wait," he says. Over the weekend, half a dozen mechanics gathered around three clunkers marked for death at Jim Clark Motors in Lawrence, Kan. As Loris Brubeck Jr., the dealership's president, held a stopwatch, the sodium-silicate solution took two minutes flat to kill a 2002 Ford Windstar, and just a few seconds more to kill a 1999 Jeep. But a 1988 Dodge van lasted more than six minutes. "Sometimes those old engines, they're the hardest to kill," says Mr. Brubeck. The automotive death sentences are meant to ensure that gas-guzzling old models make no return to the road. As sodium silicate disables an entire generation of junkyard-bound cars, the price of used engines will likely skyrocket, predicts Michael Wilson, executive vice president of the Automotive Recyclers Association. "It's the law of supply and demand." Before settling on sodium silicate, the government considered other methods of execution, including drilling a hole in the engine block and running the engine without oil. But it concluded that sodium silicate was safest for mechanics and for the environment. In its instructions to dealers, the government says that the federal Food and Drug Administration classifies sodium silicate as GRAS -- "generally regarded as safe." To engines, however, its damage is irreversible. "Once that silicate plugs everything up, it would be virtually impossible to clean that engine out," says Mr. Burton, the Kansas City service manager. Consisting largely of ingredients as common as salt and sand, sodium silicate isn't hard to make. "It is widely available and inexpensive," said a spokeswoman for the American Chemical Council. For auto dealers, a car-killing dose costs about $5. But while manufacturers have plenty on hand, the government failed to warn distributors about the impending onslaught of demand from car dealers. "It's like the government decided to put every old car in America in mothballs without giving any heads up to mothball" suppliers, says John See, owner of the ChemistryStore.com near Columbia, S.C. Mr. See's business mostly sells ingredients to soap and candle makers, his largest seller being melt-and-pour soap. But within hours of the federal government on July 24 releasing the details of the cash-for-clunkers program, a dealer called Mr. See and asked about sodium silicate. Up to that point, Mr. See's eight-year-old business had sold only about 150 gallons of sodium silicate a year, mostly for use to waterproof masonry. But within moments of learning about its new purpose, Mr. See ordered enormous supplies and purchased prime space on Google, so that his company popped up in searches for sodium silicate. Last week, he sold 4,600 gallons of it, and the rush is continuing. "We're working 16 hour days, and we've got friends and family helping out filling orders," says Mr. See. In Grand Rapids, Mich., a company called Cleaning Solutions Inc. received a call from a dealer ordering a large supply for the clunkers program. When an employee recommended investing heavily in inventory and marketing, owner Ron Balk hesitated. In decades of selling the product, he'd never heard of it used as an engine-killer. But a few calls to local dealers convinced him otherwise: They quickly bought out his existing supply, prompting him to order large amounts of the product. "We've been working 12-hour shifts ever since," says Mr. Balk. Back in suburban Chicago, Mr. Mueller says his company sold 15,000 gallons of sodium silicate last week, up from a typical level of 200 gallons a week. "At one point this week I worked 32 hours without a break," says Mr. Mueller. His company receives the product in 275-gallon containers and sells it in smaller amounts, often five-gallon pails. This week, he says, "the average dealership is ordering one to three pails, and a five-gallon pail will treat 10 cars." Long an obscure item in the CQ Concepts catalog, sodium silicate has become "the best-selling product of the year," says Mr. Mueller. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type IMAGE/JPEG which had a NAME of image003.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type IMAGE/GIF which had a NAME of image002.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:31:25 -0400 From: Christopher Wilson Subject: Re: xj: "How to ruin a perfectly good engine" (fwd) There are many ways to buy votes... On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 3:23 PM, diesel john wrote: > got this info from a friend... > > this is a travesty... the CARS program is extremely poor stewardship > that will negatively impact hundreds of thousands of auto parts recyclers, > automotive enthusiasts and people that cannot afford a new car payment. > > recycling our resources is wise; destroying a perfectly good '99 engine > because it gets 2 mpg less than a new one is utter and complete > foolishness. > > this is simply not good stewardship of our resources, it benefits no one > except > the new car dealers, and then only in a very limited way. it makes little > economic sense... those used engines could be used to stimulate > recyclers, mechanics and help middle income families continue to > economically > get to and from work instead of being chained to a car payment. What this > does is drive the price up of used parts and hurts those who can least > afford it more. > > simply branding the titles of these vehicles so they cannot be placed back > on the road but allowing the parts to be used makes economic sense for > hundreds of thousands of average americans. > > what are our leaders thinking anyway? what a shameful waste... > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stephen Rigley > > The Killer App for Clunkers Breathes Fresh Life Into 'Liquid Glass' Rebate > Program Prescribes Chemical to Stop Car Engines -- for Good; Mechanics > 'Can't Wait' By KEVIN > HELLIKER< > http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=KEVIN+HELLIKER&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND > > > > Robert Mueller deals in chemicals for a living -- things that can unstick > glue, thin paint, make plastic -- but he'd never seen an order like the one > he got for sodium silicate. > > The compound is typically used to repel bugs or seal concrete, but this > buyer's online order form betrayed a whole different intent: "To Kill Car > Engines." > > "That worried me a little, so I picked up the phone and called the > gentleman," recalls Mr. Mueller, an owner of chemical-firm CQ Concepts Inc. > in suburban Chicago. > > What Mr. Mueller discovered is that sodium silicate is the designated agent > of death for cars surrendered under the federal cash-for-clunkers program. > To receive government reimbursement, auto dealers who offer rebates on new > cars in exchange for so-called clunkers must agree to "kill" the old > models, > using a method the government outlines in great detail in its 136-page > manual for dealers: Drain the engine of oil and replace it with two quarts > of a sodium-silicate solution. > > A warning adorns an engine disabled with sodium silicate. > > [image: clunker warning] > > "The heat of the operating engine then dehydrates the solution leaving > solid > sodium silicate distributed throughout the engine's oiled surfaces and > moving parts," says the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration > publication. "These solids quickly abrade the bearings causing the engine > to > seize while damaging the moving parts of the engine and coating all of the > oil passages." > > In a nation packed with experts on how to keep cars running, the > engine-killing powers of sodium silicate are a well-kept secret. "I, like, > have so not even ever heard of this before," said Robert Lutz, new > marketing > chief and renowned "car guy" at General Motors Co., in an email. > > Often called liquid glass, sodium-silicate solution has been better known > for being used to save motors rather than killing them: It is used to stop > leaks in the gaskets that seal cylinder heads to engine blocks. > > At dealerships across America, mechanics accustomed to fixing engines are > battling for the chance to ruin them. "Everybody wants to go first, so I'm > probably going to have to make them draw straws," says Jim Burton of Randy > Curnow Buick Pontiac GMC in Kansas City, Kan. As service manager, however, > he might reserve that thrill for himself. "I can't wait," he says. > > Over the weekend, half a dozen mechanics gathered around three clunkers > marked for death at Jim Clark Motors in Lawrence, Kan. As Loris Brubeck > Jr., > the dealership's president, held a stopwatch, the sodium-silicate solution > took two minutes flat to kill a 2002 Ford Windstar, and just a few seconds > more to kill a 1999 Jeep. But a 1988 Dodge van lasted more than six > minutes. > > "Sometimes those old engines, they're the hardest to kill," says Mr. > Brubeck. > > The automotive death sentences are meant to ensure that gas-guzzling old > models make no return to the road. As sodium silicate disables an entire > generation of junkyard-bound cars, the price of used engines will likely > skyrocket, predicts Michael Wilson, executive vice president of the > Automotive Recyclers Association. "It's the law of supply and demand." > > Before settling on sodium silicate, the government considered other methods > of execution, including drilling a hole in the engine block and running the > engine without oil. But it concluded that sodium silicate was safest for > mechanics and for the environment. In its instructions to dealers, the > government says that the federal Food and Drug Administration classifies > sodium silicate as GRAS -- "generally regarded as safe." > > To engines, however, its damage is irreversible. "Once that silicate plugs > everything up, it would be virtually impossible to clean that engine out," > says Mr. Burton, the Kansas City service manager. > > Consisting largely of ingredients as common as salt and sand, sodium > silicate isn't hard to make. "It is widely available and inexpensive," said > a spokeswoman for the American Chemical Council. For auto dealers, a > car-killing dose costs about $5. > > But while manufacturers have plenty on hand, the government failed to warn > distributors about the impending onslaught of demand from car dealers. > > "It's like the government decided to put every old car in America in > mothballs without giving any heads up to mothball" suppliers, says John > See, > owner of the ChemistryStore.com near Columbia, S.C. > > Mr. See's business mostly sells ingredients to soap and candle makers, his > largest seller being melt-and-pour soap. But within hours of the federal > government on July 24 releasing the details of the cash-for-clunkers > program, a dealer called Mr. See and asked about sodium silicate. Up to > that > point, Mr. See's eight-year-old business had sold only about 150 gallons of > sodium silicate a year, mostly for use to waterproof masonry. > > But within moments of learning about its new purpose, Mr. See ordered > enormous supplies and purchased prime space on Google, so that his company > popped up in searches for sodium silicate. Last week, he sold 4,600 gallons > of it, and the rush is continuing. "We're working 16 hour days, and we've > got friends and family helping out filling orders," says Mr. See. > > In Grand Rapids, Mich., a company called Cleaning Solutions Inc. received a > call from a dealer ordering a large supply for the clunkers program. When > an > employee recommended investing heavily in inventory and marketing, owner > Ron > Balk hesitated. In decades of selling the product, he'd never heard of it > used as an engine-killer. But a few calls to local dealers convinced him > otherwise: They quickly bought out his existing supply, prompting him to > order large amounts of the product. "We've been working 12-hour shifts ever > since," says Mr. Balk. > > Back in suburban Chicago, Mr. Mueller says his company sold 15,000 gallons > of sodium silicate last week, up from a typical level of 200 gallons a > week. > "At one point this week I worked 32 hours without a break," says Mr. > Mueller. > > His company receives the product in 275-gallon containers and sells it in > smaller amounts, often five-gallon pails. This week, he says, "the average > dealership is ordering one to three pails, and a five-gallon pail will > treat > 10 cars." > > Long an obscure item in the CQ Concepts catalog, sodium silicate has become > "the best-selling product of the year," says Mr. Mueller. > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type IMAGE/JPEG which had a NAME of > image003.jpg] > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type IMAGE/GIF which had a NAME of > image002.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:50:58 -0500 From: David Bierschank Subject: Re: xj: 96 Jeep ??? Well I went and test drove the Jeep.... all was good, then I took it to show the wife..... all was still good. As I was checking it out at the house and the belt started to slip. Looking at it, it is cracked, and hard. On the way back the A/C would not be as cold and the PS would go out from time to time. This was a dealership..btw.... I told the salesman I would pay an agreed price, if they would replace the belt. The dumb manager comes in and says he would replace the belt but could not guaranty that the A/C and PS would work, would I still buy the car. I said not if the A/C and PS would not work. He says this is an 13 year old car with almost 100k, sometimes things don't work. He said he can not go around fixing used cars, to see if it fixed the problem. With the cost of the part and an hour and a half labor that he would have to pay the guys. I told him I could go down to Autozone for $17 and put it on in under 10 min, but I understand he has to mark his stuff up for profit. I said if you put the belt on and the AC and PS works I am paying cash for the car today. If not we don't have a deal. He said "No", I said "okay then." I told the salesman when we went outside, "if he puts the belt on call me and I will come drive the Jeep again." I really hate dealerships and their games!!! This was an easy transaction, that they totally screwed up. So anyway.... still, lightly in the market for a Jeep. David On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 1:20 PM, john wrote: > cats are easy to gut. > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2009, Kevin wrote: > > # Yes, three. On the Y2K cherokee my brother has, the exhaust manifold is > # actually two separate manifolds (1,2,3 and 4,5,6) which each attach to > the top > # of a cat. After gas flows through that cat, the pipes Y together and > head to > # another cat, then the muffler. Naturally, the first two cats are part of > the > # Y-pipe, so I figure that'll be nice and cheap to replace should it > require > # replacement. > # > # I figure that this is the primary reason that my trail beater will > absolutely > # roast my brother's jeep, and why there doesn't appear to be a mileage > penalty > # driving the trail beater instead of my brother's. From a driveline > standpoint > # the two trucks are indentical, except the beater has been regeared to > 4.10 > # gears and is locked front and rear. Beater's sitting on mud tires, and > # my brother has stock sized michelins on his. > # > # I mean, the K&N that the trail beater has on it can't be responsible for > the > # power difference, regardless of what K&N tells you ;) > # > # On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 10:17:43AM -0500, David Bierschank wrote: > # > Yeah I guess I should have said.... > # > > # > This is just for a daily driver... > # > > # > This Jeep is Stock.... and all is supposed to work, but I will still > check > # > it all out. > # > > # > Wow.... three CATS...... I really don't like even the one I have and > most > # > cars. > # > - -- David Bierschank Help me in reaching my goal on the MS Bike Ride from Tulsa to Oklahoma City http://tinyurl.com/OKMS150DavidB okc67mustang-at-gmail.com dbier-at-att.net ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3055 *************************