From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Aug 20 00:27:35 2009 From: xj-digest xj-digest Thursday, August 20 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3064 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions xj: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions xj: RE: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) Re: xj: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) xj: torque converters RE: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:52:09 -0700 From: "Tesar Landon-R16884" Subject: RE: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions Somewhere on the baja peninsula as I recall, those AW guys were a little nuts, always liked the large newspaper type version, some marketing types got ahold of it and downsized the magazine, that was the beginning of the end, IMHO... - - L - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of ernest breakfield Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:47 PM To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions 100MPH off-road in 4WD in a stock XJ?! sounds crazy to me,... what where they doing out there in the Dez; chasing Peyote buttons? ;-P cheers! e Tesar Landon-R16884 wrote: > I remember Autoweek's version of the XJ 'Test' where they talked about 4 > adults in comfort skimming across the desert in 4WD at 100mph, that it > was somewhat surreal....with the V6. > > - L > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of > Kevin > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:43 AM > To: xj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions > > I wasn't much of a fan of the 2.8 GM v6. I think it was Road and Track > who > tested the XJ when it first came out, and the XJ was the first vehicle > in > magazine history where they recommended the smaller engine :) > > It was certainly compact (which is probably why it was so popular to put > in > things before everyone realized it was a bad idea), and other members of > that > engine family are fairly robust. The GM performance catalog shows a > crate > called an HT3100 that looks like it'd be a barn burner in one of those. > But > with how inexpensive XJs can be picked up these days with a 4.0, why > bother > with the v6 one? > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 09:35:48AM -0700, john wrote: > >> yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you >> replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the >> new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the >> weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at >> the local chevy dealer... :( >> >> Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst >> engine ever installed in any Jeep? >> >> Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that >> was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially >> the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... >> >> I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which >> I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine >> ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say >> the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, >> and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close >> contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts >> costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no >> > doubt. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:40:05 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: xj: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions What type of adapter does the D300 have? From: john Subject: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions I have a Dana 300 behind my T19, have a buyer in No. CA for it. will take it down into Oregon early september... my TF727 with the round bellhousing (RV), presumably out of some kind of IH, has that "texas style" adapter and a gear attached... john _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:42:33 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: xj: RE: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions The loadflite is 6 speed auto (don't get too excited. It splits between the regular gear w/o an overdrive, like a 2 speed axle). Big block 727s are only 3 speed auto. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:56:48 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net > CC: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions > > so I'm confused, if it's got the round bellhousing part is it an RV or a Big Block? > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Tue, 18 Aug 2009, Kevin wrote: > > # The RV/HD version of the 727 was called a loadflight, not a torqueflight. > # Don't ask me much about it more than that ;) > # > # On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 09:38:40PM -0700, john wrote: > # > it's got a gear bolted on to the end... it's under the bench, will > # > drag it out tomorrow evening... > # > > # > will check with Dave's Transmission Service in Lynnwood, a lot closer > # > and Dave Sr. has been doing this since the '60s... > # > > # > the guys on the Cj-10 list have identified the 727 as the RV version, > # > not a Big Block as some have called it... makes sense... Dave is very > # > familiar with them in RVs. > # > > # > my reason for using the jeep case is I'll have the right adapters... > # > > # > you know, I should bring my 727 down to Olympic with me and compare them... > # > might save my self some money, eh? :) > # _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:49:28 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) If someone wants one of those crate motors, there is one with a few miles on it since new, but the computer started acting up (I'm pretty sure it's a messed up MAF sensor because it runs fine warm, cuts out and floods when warmed up then 10 minutes of driving later it runs fine again with the check engine light on bright) It's in an '88 Celebrity, but since it was a crate engine, it should have both mounts on it. That coupled with the fuel injection would make a decent 2.8L powered rig. I agree that the earlier externally balanced motor was built too close to French "bleeding edge" standards. Car is up for $300. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 From: john Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at the local chevy dealer... :( Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst engine ever installed in any Jeep? Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no doubt. ok, end rant. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:32:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions not sure what you mean... it's bolted to the Scout T19. ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # What type of adapter does the D300 have? # # # From: john # Subject: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions # # I have a Dana 300 behind my T19, have a buyer in No. CA for it. # will take it down into Oregon early september... # # my TF727 with the round bellhousing (RV), presumably out of some kind # of IH, has that "texas style" adapter and a gear attached... # # john # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. # http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: # WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:35:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) jim, that's a FWD engine, is that the same as the RWD engines? even a target master 2.8 is a piece of If they paid me or a friend $300 and we had a dead XJ that needed an engine I wouldn't recommend that to my worst enemy... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # # If someone wants one of those crate motors, there is one with a few miles on it since new, but the computer started acting up (I'm pretty sure it's a messed up MAF sensor because it runs fine warm, cuts out and floods when warmed up then 10 minutes of driving later it runs fine again with the check engine light on bright) # It's in an '88 Celebrity, but since it was a crate engine, it should have both mounts on it. That coupled with the fuel injection would make a decent 2.8L powered rig. # I agree that the earlier externally balanced motor was built too close to French "bleeding edge" standards. # # Car is up for $300. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # From: john # Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions # # yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you # replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the # new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the # weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at # the local chevy dealer... :( # # Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst # engine ever installed in any Jeep? # # Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that # was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially # the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... # # I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which # I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine # ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say # the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, # and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close # contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts # costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no doubt. # # ok, end rant. # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. # http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: xj: torque converters started looking at torque converter info for the 727 that will be used behind the SD33T. it appears that the only variable on a Torque Converter is the stall speed... several websites say to find the peak torque and go with a stall speed about 500 rpm or so lower. The AMC 360 V8 and the SD33T appear to be pretty close in their torque curves so I'm thinking that the torque converter out of a Grand Wagoneer should be fine for the SD33T setup, and I'll get a lockup feature as well. I will use the guts from the GW instead of the scout 727. Stall speed is somewhat confusing... copied some of the general guidelines below. Was reading up on how a lockup feature works... Jeeps had these, but there wasn't any noticeable improvement in economy. :) One article cited a 65% improvement in economy at speed... :) here's a few links that might be of interest. http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/10-Understanding-Stall-Speed http://rodcustom.automotive.com/79866/0808rc-torque-converters/index.html http://www.protorque.com/techi/ti_faq.htm http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/0808rc_torque_converters/index.html (very interesting details on the 727): http://books.google.com/books?id=IjnczMjW46QC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Torqueflite+727++torque+converter&source=bl&ots=1nxsSwXlZJ&sig=sQR7KHNN-nPsG8dUeWqnRv6-v2c&hl=en&ei=v9KMSpjdBYeEswOvg5XdCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=Torqueflite%20727%20%20torque%20converter&f=false pricing: http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=199353 http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5794&idcategory=0#details Some general guidelines for selecting a converter: http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/selectingconverter.html * According to B&M, the stall speed should be rated at about 500-750 RPM under your engine's peak torque RPM. If you don't know this figure, be conservative in your estimate. You don't want to end up with a converter that has too high of a stall speed. Don't be too conservative, though - it is possible to get a converter with too low of a stall speed, which will have roughly the same effect as too high of a stall speed. * Have a good idea of your vehicle's weight. Remember, lighter vehicles will lower the rated stall speed; heavier vehicles will have the opposite effect. * High stall converters generate a lot of extra heat. The installation of an external transmission cooler is mandatory with a higher than stock stall speed converter. Actually, you should have one in there anyway. Heat is the number one killer of transmissions - 85% of all trannies die because of inadequate cooling. Also, using AMSOIL Synthetic ATF has been shown to lower Auto Trans temperatures more than 50 Degrees! I always add a trans cooler and switch to Amsoil atf... sometimes I'll add an oil filter in line. One local tow truck outfit kept burning up Automatics... switched to Amsoil and fixed the problem. They claim it lowered the temp on their transmissions by 75 degrees. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 00:25:37 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) The crate motor should have both mounts. The reason for the 2.8 being such a poor motor was the undersized rod bearings and offset ground crank which were fixed in the later motors. That coupled with the EFI gave the motor an added 50 or so HP that it really needed. (much like the EFI on the 4.0L made it more reliable and powerful than the larger 4.2L) I found an 86 MJ with the 2.8L that I wanted to swap this motor into, but I have far too many projects already > Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:35:12 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; xj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) > > jim, that's a FWD engine, is that the same as the RWD engines? > > even a target master 2.8 is a piece of > > If they paid me or a friend $300 and we had a dead XJ that needed an engine > I wouldn't recommend that to my worst enemy... > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: > > # > # If someone wants one of those crate motors, there is one with a few miles on it since new, but the computer started acting up (I'm pretty sure it's a messed up MAF sensor because it runs fine warm, cuts out and floods when warmed up then 10 minutes of driving later it runs fine again with the check engine light on bright) > # It's in an '88 Celebrity, but since it was a crate engine, it should have both mounts on it. That coupled with the fuel injection would make a decent 2.8L powered rig. > # I agree that the earlier externally balanced motor was built too close to French "bleeding edge" standards. > # > # Car is up for $300. > # > # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > # > # From: john > # Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions > # > # yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you > # replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the > # new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the > # weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at > # the local chevy dealer... :( > # > # Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst > # engine ever installed in any Jeep? > # > # Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that > # was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially > # the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... > # > # I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which > # I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine > # ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say > # the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, > # and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close > # contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts > # costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no doubt. > # > # ok, end rant. > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. > # http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3064 *************************