From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Nov 5 15:12:37 2009 From: xj-digest xj-digest Thursday, November 5 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3096 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure xj: 4.0L troubleshooting... died, won't restart Re: xj: 4.0L troubleshooting... died, won't restart Re: xj: 4.0L troubleshooting... died, won't restart Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:29:23 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure thanx... the more info I have before driving 50 miles down there the better... I figure it's better to spend an hour or two in the rain in the parking lot with parts than paying to use a tow dolly and finding out that I could have fixed it by reconnecting a vacuum line. :) going to take the 300D down for the first run... if I can't get it going, will rent a dolly and come back with the WJ to retrieve it... it's in an apartment parking lot, rain is predicted... going down with a mechanical engineering friend from grad school, he's stuffing a 6.2 in his '56 willys panel and we've been doing some wrenching together... he's also 6'3" so he'll be able to reach stuff under the hood that I can't. ;) Thinking MAP sensor, vacuum lines, CPS, TPS, starting fluid, battery... MAYBE: plugs, cap, rotor, ??? SYMPTOM: died while running, won't restart... the owner is in Texas, but was thinking it was the TPS and/or the AW4 computer. 1989 Jeep Cherokee Limited - 4.0L (Renix system) PICTURES: http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ/ALL.html john btw, working on a new main page: http://wagoneers.com/nindex.html - trying to make a small first page that I can attach to the bottom of other files as a nav tool... thoughts? suggestions? main links you'd like to see embedded? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Kevin wrote: # CPS can and will make it stall and not restart, had to rescue a friend with # a can of carb cleaner to get it on the trailer then back to his house. I hate # swapping sensors on the side of the road... # # I'd bring a set of fuel pressure gauges as well, the fuel pump could # absolutely do that. I'd have to look under the hood of the black jeep to see # if it has an autoshutdown relay that kills the fuel pump, like the HO ones do. # # On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 09:12:07AM -0800, diesel john wrote: # > don't know what the exact symptoms are, it's not here, going down Saturday... # > # > it was running, then died, couldn't get it started again... no other details, PO thinks it was # > the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now, medical/family emergency, left # > it about a month ago, will be back there for months... his daughter is selling it... # > # > going to bring a MAP, CPS, TPS... anything else that would kill it while it's running and not start it again? # > # > cps will stall, but it'll restart # > tps will make it run crappy... # > # > map will kill it dead and not start it, right? # > # > I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to clean them up... old files will NOT be found from # > book marks, also renamed them to make more sense, I hope. ;) # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:31:52 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: 4.0L troubleshooting... died, won't restart there are part stored down in Tacoma... so I'll head down with the main suspects... you might be right jim on the fuel pump... MAP CPS TPS vacuum line right? will crank and first test for spark... no spark: MAP test again... no spark: CPS? or TPS? then after spark, check for fuel... open to ideas, suggestions... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # # Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" # Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable # MIME-Version: 1.0 # # # I'd also take a fuel pump relay=2C but you can swap those around (I had to = # on my Comanche. It had one for AC=2C but no AC!) Looks for melted CPS wires= # on the exhaust. TPS will still allow idle. Map would let it start but not = # stay running or at least flood out. # # # # Jim Blair=2C Lynnwood=2C WA '87 Comanche=2C '83 Jeep J10=2C '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # # # ---------------------------------------- # > Date: Thu=2C 5 Nov 2009 09:12:07 -0800 # > From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net # > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com # > CC: xj-at-digest.net # > Subject: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep =3D popcorn adventure # > # > don't know what the exact symptoms are=2C it's not here=2C going down Sat= # urday... # > # > it was running=2C then died=2C couldn't get it started again... no other = # details=2C PO thinks it was # > the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now=2C me= # dical/family emergency=2C left # > it about a month ago=2C will be back there for months... his daughter is = # selling it... # > # > going to bring a MAP=2C CPS=2C TPS... anything else that would kill it wh= # ile it's running and not start it again? # > # > cps will stall=2C but it'll restart # > tps will make it run crappy... # > # > map will kill it dead and not start it=2C right? # > # > I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to clea= # n them up... old files will NOT be found from # > book marks=2C also renamed them to make more sense=2C I hope. =3B) # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish=2C Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust=2C they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=3D283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # =20 # _________________________________________________________________ # Bing brings you maps=2C menus=2C and reviews organized in one place. # http://www.bing.com/search?q=3Drestaurants&form=3DMFESRP&publ=3DWLHMTAG&cre= # a=3DTEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1= # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:40:43 -0800 From: Kevin Subject: Re: xj: 4.0L troubleshooting... died, won't restart If it was me, I'd probably check the fuel pump first, and have a clip lead with you in case it cranks, fires, then immediately dies when you let up the key. Once you know you have fuel pressure to the rail, it's a spark thing. At least on an HO rig, disconnecting the MAP makes it run open loop after running poorly for a bit. Even on Renix, I'd expect TPS and MAP to just make it run like crap, not make it fail to start at all. Of course, we're assuming the starter spins. If the starter isn't spinning, it could be as stupid as neutral safety or replacing the contacts and sanding the plunger in the starter (it's an ND starter IIRC). On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 10:31:52AM -0800, john wrote: > there are part stored down in Tacoma... > so I'll head down with the main suspects... you might be right jim on the fuel pump... > > MAP > CPS > TPS > vacuum line > > right? > > will crank and first test for spark... > no spark: MAP > test again... > no spark: CPS? or TPS? > > > then after spark, check for fuel... > > open to ideas, suggestions... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:46:09 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: 4.0L troubleshooting... died, won't restart let's keep the discussion to Renix... I confuse easily. we'll keep this discussion going, will clean it up and get a consensus... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Kevin wrote: # If it was me, I'd probably check the fuel pump first, and have a clip lead # with you in case it cranks, fires, then immediately dies when you let up the # key. Once you know you have fuel pressure to the rail, it's a spark thing. At # least on an HO rig, disconnecting the MAP makes it run open loop after running # poorly for a bit. Even on Renix, I'd expect TPS and MAP to just make it run # like crap, not make it fail to start at all. # # Of course, we're assuming the starter spins. If the starter isn't spinning, # it could be as stupid as neutral safety or replacing the contacts and # sanding the plunger in the starter (it's an ND starter IIRC). # # On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 10:31:52AM -0800, john wrote: # > there are part stored down in Tacoma... # > so I'll head down with the main suspects... you might be right jim on the fuel pump... # > # > MAP # > CPS # > TPS # > vacuum line # > # > right? # > # > will crank and first test for spark... # > no spark: MAP # > test again... # > no spark: CPS? or TPS? # > # > # > then after spark, check for fuel... # > # > open to ideas, suggestions... # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:20:37 -0800 From: ernest breakfield Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure it's not clear what year (or even which motor) we're talking about,but lets ASSuME that this is an older 4.0 (since we're talking about a separate Trans Computer) and that the No-Start is a crank but won't fire as opposed to won't even turn over. in that case, i can't see how it could be the TPS or the Trans Computer; neither should cause a No-Run situation. starting simple; do we know it even has fuel and hasn't just been run out of gas? is the fuel good? is the fuel filter clogged? after that, first step in the General Diagnostic Procedure (at least in my FSM from the mid-90s) is to check and clean the PCM mounting bolt, as it supplies the electrical ground for the PCM. do we have any idea if it cranks and doesn't fire at all, or if it's hitting occasionally but not 'catching'? knowing what kind of No-Start we're dealing with would help a lot with a keyboard diagnosis,... ;-) beyond that, *which* CPS you're talking about can make a difference in Failure Modes (as there were at least 2 different suppliers for later years; i'm not sure how many for earlier years). CPS Failure Mode can be: - - dies while running and may restart (usually for a short period of time before the failure becomes more permanent), or - - gets increasingly harder to start until it just plain *won't* start. without a CPS signal to the PCM, i believe you won't have fuel injector signals or spark, though you should be able to occasionally still hear the fuel pump run briefly to pressurize the system at key-on. (the fuel pump could be easily verified by releasing the pressure on the fuel rail before key-on just to make sure it needs to bring it up to pressure.) cheers! e diesel john wrote: > don't know what the exact symptoms are, it's not here, going down Saturday... > > it was running, then died, couldn't get it started again... no other details, PO thinks it was > the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now, medical/family emergency, left > it about a month ago, will be back there for months... his daughter is selling it... > > going to bring a MAP, CPS, TPS... anything else that would kill it while it's running and not start it again? > > cps will stall, but it'll restart > tps will make it run crappy... > > map will kill it dead and not start it, right? > > I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to clean them up... old files will NOT be found from > book marks, also renamed them to make more sense, I hope. ;) > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:10:43 -0500 From: "Don Hansen" Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure It's ALWAYS the CPS!!! Sometimes unplugging/re-plugging the CPS will get it to start. I once dropped a socket and swivel down the CPS hole! Let me tell you how much fun I had getting that sucker out from flex-plate land!!! - -Don - -------------------------------------------------- From: "ernest breakfield" Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM To: Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure > it's not clear what year (or even which motor) we're talking about,but > lets ASSuME that this is an older 4.0 (since we're talking about a > separate Trans Computer) and that the No-Start is a crank but won't fire > as opposed to won't even turn over. > > in that case, i can't see how it could be the TPS or the Trans > Computer; neither should cause a No-Run situation. > starting simple; do we know it even has fuel and hasn't just been > run out of gas? > is the fuel good? > is the fuel filter clogged? > after that, first step in the General Diagnostic Procedure (at least > in my FSM from the mid-90s) is to check and clean the PCM mounting bolt, > as it supplies the electrical ground for the PCM. > do we have any idea if it cranks and doesn't fire at all, or if it's > hitting occasionally but not 'catching'? knowing what kind of No-Start > we're dealing with would help a lot with a keyboard diagnosis,... ;-) > > beyond that, *which* CPS you're talking about can make a difference > in Failure Modes (as there were at least 2 different suppliers for later > years; i'm not sure how many for earlier years). > CPS Failure Mode can be: > - dies while running and may restart (usually for a short period of time > before the failure becomes more permanent), or > - gets increasingly harder to start until it just plain *won't* start. > > without a CPS signal to the PCM, i believe you won't have fuel > injector signals or spark, though you should be able to occasionally > still hear the fuel pump run briefly to pressurize the system at key-on. > (the fuel pump could be easily verified by releasing the pressure on the > fuel rail before key-on just to make sure it needs to bring it up to > pressure.) > > > cheers! > e > > > diesel john wrote: >> don't know what the exact symptoms are, it's not here, going down >> Saturday... >> >> it was running, then died, couldn't get it started again... no other >> details, PO thinks it was >> the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now, >> medical/family emergency, left >> it about a month ago, will be back there for months... his daughter is >> selling it... >> >> going to bring a MAP, CPS, TPS... anything else that would kill it while >> it's running and not start it again? >> >> cps will stall, but it'll restart >> tps will make it run crappy... >> >> map will kill it dead and not start it, right? >> >> I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to >> clean them up... old files will NOT be found from >> book marks, also renamed them to make more sense, I hope. ;) >> >> john >> >> >> >> ----- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >> http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org >> http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:13:10 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure Hahaha! If it hadn't happened to me on all three of my Jeeps, I wouldn't have understood how funny this statement is! Ed web/gadget guru - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ By Richard Feynman, Physicist, Nobel winner (1918-1988) "There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." - --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Don Hansen wrote: From: Don Hansen Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure To: xj-at-digest.net Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 5:10 PM It's ALWAYS the CPS!!! Sometimes unplugging/re-plugging the CPS will get it to start. I once dropped a socket and swivel down the CPS hole! Let me tell you how much fun I had getting that sucker out from flex-plate land!!! - -Don - -------------------------------------------------- From: "ernest breakfield" Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM To: Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure > it's not clear what year (or even which motor) we're talking about,but > lets ASSuME that this is an older 4.0 (since we're talking about a > separate Trans Computer) and that the No-Start is a crank but won't fire > as opposed to won't even turn over. > > in that case, i can't see how it could be the TPS or the Trans > Computer; neither should cause a No-Run situation. > starting simple; do we know it even has fuel and hasn't just been > run out of gas? > is the fuel good? > is the fuel filter clogged? > after that, first step in the General Diagnostic Procedure (at least > in my FSM from the mid-90s) is to check and clean the PCM mounting bolt, > as it supplies the electrical ground for the PCM. > do we have any idea if it cranks and doesn't fire at all, or if it's > hitting occasionally but not 'catching'? knowing what kind of No-Start > we're dealing with would help a lot with a keyboard diagnosis,... ;-) > > beyond that, *which* CPS you're talking about can make a difference > in Failure Modes (as there were at least 2 different suppliers for later > years; i'm not sure how many for earlier years). > CPS Failure Mode can be: > - dies while running and may restart (usually for a short period of time > before the failure becomes more permanent), or > - gets increasingly harder to start until it just plain *won't* start. > > without a CPS signal to the PCM, i believe you won't have fuel > injector signals or spark, though you should be able to occasionally > still hear the fuel pump run briefly to pressurize the system at key-on. > (the fuel pump could be easily verified by releasing the pressure on the > fuel rail before key-on just to make sure it needs to bring it up to > pressure.) > > > cheers! > e > > > diesel john wrote: >> don't know what the exact symptoms are, it's not here, going down Saturday... >> >> it was running, then died, couldn't get it started again... no other details, PO thinks it was >> the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now, medical/family emergency, left >> it about a month ago, will be back there for months... his daughter is selling it... >> >> going to bring a MAP, CPS, TPS... anything else that would kill it while it's running and not start it again? >> >> cps will stall, but it'll restart >> tps will make it run crappy... >> >> map will kill it dead and not start it, right? >> >> I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to clean them up... old files will NOT be found from >> book marks, also renamed them to make more sense, I hope. ;) >> >> john >> >> >> >> ----- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >> http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org >> http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3096 *************************