From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Nov 6 14:35:24 2009 From: xj-digest xj-digest Friday, November 6 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3098 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: xj: '89 4.0L/Renix not running, not starting Re: xj: crank position sensor info xj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... xj: RE: fsj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... xj: Re: fsj: John's new XJ xj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... another popcorn adventure XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:40:42 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: '89 4.0L/Renix not running, not starting totally different critters, and no spell checker... using PINE in a BASH shell via SSH (from one linux system to another... ;) sorry about the extra vowel, no extra charge. ;) anyway, will dig up the email and send it... your '94 was the newer OBi kanobee (spelling???) HO new fangled computer that spits out real codes... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: # hi John! # # (it's 'ernest', not eArnest; no matter what spellcheck tells us.) ;-) # # PCM; FSM-speak for Powertrain Control Module. (in my '94, it's on # the left front fender,... but there's no separate Trans computer either,...) # # by CPS i mean Crankshaft Position Sensor, not Camshaft Position Sensor. # # OK; i'm admittedly not intimately familiar with the Renix stuff. i'm # not certain if a lack of signal from the CPS on the Renix units will cut # out spark and injectors as it will with the later models, but would # suspect it's the same. odds are if you have spark, it's not the CPS. # # 'quit while driving and not wanting to restart' could be lots of # different things, but that's exactly the way mine failed when my CPS # went out; no warning like stalling or misfiring whatsoever. might be # different for the Renix units, but i had several friends (with later # models) whose CPSs failed in one of the 2 modes i described earlier; in # both cases, they would crank fine, but not spark,... until suddenly they # did. (usually this failure to run would last just about as long as it # would take to unplug and replug the wires, so i was always suspicious as # to whether or not unplug/reconnecting them would have any real effect... # but have read reports that some people have allegedly "cured" their CPS # problems by just wrapping the connector tighter with baling wire.) # mine failed while running several times like someone had just # flipped off a switch, with increasing reluctance to restart until the # CPS was replaced... FWIW, i do remember noticing that the tach would # drop like a stone to zero when it was failing, but don't know if the # Renix stuff has the same symptom. # but we still don't have enough info to be able to know if that's # this guys problem or not. # # # cheers! # e # # # john wrote: # > yes earnest, my bad, it's a 1989 Cherokee with the 4.0L/Renix system. # > # > PCM? are you talking about the computer under the dash? # > # > the jeep is 50 miles away... the guy said it quit running while driving and would not # > restart... he's back east dealing with a family emergency but seemed to think it # > was the TPS or trans computer, which shouldn't kill it dead. # > # > The CPS will cause stalling and misfires, but I've not seen one kill it dead... but it's # > possible, and WILL be looked at. # > # > The MAP sensor seems to be the primary suspect... if it's spark related. # > # > If it's fuel related the pump/filter seems to be high on the list of probables. # > # > # > later I'll compose some step by steps from everyone's input and see if we have # > everything nailed, will grab a few parts at lunch tomorrow and then go down on # > Saturday to get it going. :) # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: # > # > # it's not clear what year (or even which motor) we're talking about,but # > # lets ASSuME that this is an older 4.0 (since we're talking about a # > # separate Trans Computer) and that the No-Start is a crank but won't fire # > # as opposed to won't even turn over. # > # # > # in that case, i can't see how it could be the TPS or the Trans # > # Computer; neither should cause a No-Run situation. # > # starting simple; do we know it even has fuel and hasn't just been # > # run out of gas? # > # is the fuel good? # > # is the fuel filter clogged? # > # after that, first step in the General Diagnostic Procedure (at least # > # in my FSM from the mid-90s) is to check and clean the PCM mounting bolt, # > # as it supplies the electrical ground for the PCM. # > # do we have any idea if it cranks and doesn't fire at all, or if it's # > # hitting occasionally but not 'catching'? knowing what kind of No-Start # > # we're dealing with would help a lot with a keyboard diagnosis,... ;-) # > # # > # beyond that, *which* CPS you're talking about can make a difference # > # in Failure Modes (as there were at least 2 different suppliers for later # > # years; i'm not sure how many for earlier years). # > # CPS Failure Mode can be: # > # - dies while running and may restart (usually for a short period of time # > # before the failure becomes more permanent), or # > # - gets increasingly harder to start until it just plain *won't* start. # > # # > # without a CPS signal to the PCM, i believe you won't have fuel # > # injector signals or spark, though you should be able to occasionally # > # still hear the fuel pump run briefly to pressurize the system at key-on. # > # (the fuel pump could be easily verified by releasing the pressure on the # > # fuel rail before key-on just to make sure it needs to bring it up to # > # pressure.) # > # # > # # > # cheers! # > # e # > # # > # # > # diesel john wrote: # > # > don't know what the exact symptoms are, it's not here, going down Saturday... # > # > # > # > it was running, then died, couldn't get it started again... no other details, PO thinks it was # > # > the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now, medical/family emergency, left # > # > it about a month ago, will be back there for months... his daughter is selling it... # > # > # > # > going to bring a MAP, CPS, TPS... anything else that would kill it while it's running and not start it again? # > # > # > # > cps will stall, but it'll restart # > # > tps will make it run crappy... # > # > # > # > map will kill it dead and not start it, right? # > # > # > # > I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to clean them up... old files will NOT be found from # > # > book marks, also renamed them to make more sense, I hope. ;) # > # > # > # > john # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:41:26 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: xj: crank position sensor info pretty sure it was renix... alan? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, ernest breakfield wrote: # wasn't Alans XJ non-Renix? would his info apply? # # # cheers! # e # # # john wrote: # > ouch... # > # > here's the updated page info: # > http://wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/WIRING/CrankPositionSensor/ALL.html # > # > and some info from Alan Chung: # > http://wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/WIRING/starting-problems.html # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Don Hansen wrote: # > # > # It's ALWAYS the CPS!!! # > # Sometimes unplugging/re-plugging the CPS will get it to start. # > # # > # I once dropped a socket and swivel down the CPS hole! Let me tell you how # > # much fun I had getting that sucker out from flex-plate land!!! # > # # > # -Don # > # # > # -------------------------------------------------- # > # From: "ernest breakfield" # > # Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:20 PM # > # To: # > # Subject: Re: xj: RE: fsj: Diesel + Jeep = popcorn adventure # > # # > # > it's not clear what year (or even which motor) we're talking about,but # > # > lets ASSuME that this is an older 4.0 (since we're talking about a # > # > separate Trans Computer) and that the No-Start is a crank but won't fire # > # > as opposed to won't even turn over. # > # > # > # > in that case, i can't see how it could be the TPS or the Trans # > # > Computer; neither should cause a No-Run situation. # > # > starting simple; do we know it even has fuel and hasn't just been # > # > run out of gas? # > # > is the fuel good? # > # > is the fuel filter clogged? # > # > after that, first step in the General Diagnostic Procedure (at least # > # > in my FSM from the mid-90s) is to check and clean the PCM mounting bolt, # > # > as it supplies the electrical ground for the PCM. # > # > do we have any idea if it cranks and doesn't fire at all, or if it's # > # > hitting occasionally but not 'catching'? knowing what kind of No-Start # > # > we're dealing with would help a lot with a keyboard diagnosis,... ;-) # > # > # > # > beyond that, *which* CPS you're talking about can make a difference # > # > in Failure Modes (as there were at least 2 different suppliers for later # > # > years; i'm not sure how many for earlier years). # > # > CPS Failure Mode can be: # > # > - dies while running and may restart (usually for a short period of time # > # > before the failure becomes more permanent), or # > # > - gets increasingly harder to start until it just plain *won't* start. # > # > # > # > without a CPS signal to the PCM, i believe you won't have fuel # > # > injector signals or spark, though you should be able to occasionally # > # > still hear the fuel pump run briefly to pressurize the system at key-on. # > # > (the fuel pump could be easily verified by releasing the pressure on the # > # > fuel rail before key-on just to make sure it needs to bring it up to # > # > pressure.) # > # > # > # > # > # > cheers! # > # > e # > # > # > # > # > # > diesel john wrote: # > # > > don't know what the exact symptoms are, it's not here, going down # > # > > Saturday... # > # > > # > # > > it was running, then died, couldn't get it started again... no other # > # > > details, PO thinks it was # > # > > the TPS and/or the automatic trans computer... he's in TX right now, # > # > > medical/family emergency, left # > # > > it about a month ago, will be back there for months... his daughter is # > # > > selling it... # > # > > # > # > > going to bring a MAP, CPS, TPS... anything else that would kill it while # > # > > it's running and not start it again? # > # > > # > # > > cps will stall, but it'll restart # > # > > tps will make it run crappy... # > # > > # > # > > map will kill it dead and not start it, right? # > # > > # > # > > I've got some test stuff on XJ/tech - reorganized the directories to # > # > > clean them up... old files will NOT be found from # > # > > book marks, also renamed them to make more sense, I hope. ;) # > # > > # > # > > john # > # > > # > # > > # > # > > # > # > > ----- # > # > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > # > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:47:08 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... details from the seller below. suspects as identified by the list: - MAP sensor - CPS (crank pos sensor) and related wiring - fuel pump/filter - ---------------- other suspects: - TPS john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ...he said it was running fine and he was driving to work one day and it just stopped...... i think he towed it home.... he said those are the only problems he know of, and he thinks it's possible to get it going. he drove it daily for about a year with out problems. the brakes work but need to be replaced soon. you could drive home though with no problem i think. it is in the parking lot of his apts, so it can stay there for a few days if you need it to... ad: The Throttle Position Sensor is not working. It need brakes, has no battery or tape deck. Update- My dad just told me the the Transmission computer is not working properly. The TPS won't send the signal to it to tell it to start. Also it's an Automatic. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:53:02 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: xj: RE: fsj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... Cps = no spark map = start/quit or overfuel but still spark fuel pump/relay = no pressure bad gauge = no gas ;^) > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:47:08 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: xj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... > > details from the seller below. > > suspects as identified by the list: > > - MAP sensor > - CPS (crank pos sensor) and related wiring > > - fuel pump/filter > > ---------------- > other suspects: > > - TPS > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > ...he said it was running fine and he was driving to > work one day and it just stopped...... i think he towed it home.... he > said those are the only problems he know of, and he thinks it's > possible to get it going. he drove it daily for about a year with out > problems. the brakes work but need to be replaced soon. you could > drive home though with no problem i think. it is in the parking lot > of his apts, so it can stay there for a few days if you need it to... > > ad: > > The Throttle Position Sensor is not working. It need brakes, has no battery > or tape deck. > Update- My dad just told me the the Transmission computer is not working > properly. > The TPS won't send the signal to it to tell it to start. Also it's an > Automatic. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:01:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: Re: fsj: John's new XJ mark... too funny... been there, done that... found out where it's at... got back on I-5 at the exit after lunch and chasing some parts when I was going down to centralia... know there's a good parts store just up the road... :) printed out all the electrical stuff I have on my server... tomorrow night will load up tools in the 300D... have a good feeling about this project... I figure a max of two hours to get it going, and if I don't, no worries, will come back with a tow dolly and the wj. nice having backup plans... and friends that are willing to help and help with the parts... between Jim and my carport I may have all the parts I need... shoot, I should go out and find my parts right now... I think I have a fuel pump out there! And a cps, and possible a tps.. along with that wiring harness from the '89 that jim and I parted a few years back... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, wallacem7-at-aol.com wrote: # John - before you pick up your 'new' XJ that you are going to repair in the # parking lot in the rain you should make sure that the batteries in your # flashlight are half dead. Another suggestion is to go at night. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:34:50 -0800 (PST) From: diesel john Subject: xj: '89 xj - renix - symptoms as reported... another popcorn adventure popcorn update: Friday 6 November - exedition south commences Saturday AM... another Diesel Dave and Diesel John adventure... feeling lucky, only a 70% chance of precipitation... (what's a Thunderstorm?) Have the parts from Pep Boys, apx prices, can return if not installed... called a bit ago, pick 'em up later today. Map Sensor - ~<$40 CPS - ~<$30 TPS - ~<$50 Pump set - ~+$60 (Bosch OE) found out there is a pep boys in Puyallup too... with those four items I should be fine. PLAN: (and notes to self, excuse my mental exercise) -round up parts and tools this afternoon (remember vacuum lines, battery, relays, fuses, gas can) -head down to Tacoma around 9:30 am - should be there by noon -contact seller, look at Jeep and confirm purchase (99% probability of sale. ;) -check all fuses, pull and reinsert -drop in battery -seat all connectors and cables, visual inspection of all vacuum lines and cables -turn key and try to crank. - no crank after bypassing neutral safety, see: http://wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/WIRING/xj-starting-trick.txt (jumper 2 larger slots in relay socket) if still no crank, cuss, fuss and head head to store for starter -if cranks, leave key on, press schrader valve on fuel system (wearing rubber glove and "gas" mask) if no fuel present, check fuses, pump, replace pump/filter -if fuel present, apply timing light to a cable and have friend crank, watch for flash -if no flash, fiddle with MAP, replace MAP -if no flash, fiddle with CPS, replace CPS -if no flash, fiddle with TPS, replace TPS -if no flash, cuss, fuss and plan on coming back with tow dolly or more spares from jim blair Once running, and I suspect it will be, check fuel level and basic brakes and steering... head north... pilot to be determined... PO occassionally smoked with the windows down, if it smells of smoke I'll be in the chase craft, likely the '91 300SD. ;) You know, I may end up using the '99 WJ despite the fuel costs... because if something happens on the return flight the WJ could pull the XJ to a safe location or hit a U-haul for a tow dolly... plus I'd have a covered area for my tools and parts... besides, the WJ never gets out any more... 100 miles/15 mpg x ~7gal x 3bucks is around $20.00... ok, the WJ it is... ;) get that popcorn ready... if I like this Cherokee Limited ( http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ/ALL.html ) it might just get a driveline swap... from the tug... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ details from the seller below. suspects as identified by the list: - MAP sensor - CPS (crank pos sensor) and related wiring - fuel pump/filter - ---------------- other suspects: - TPS john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ...he said it was running fine and he was driving to work one day and it just stopped...... i think he towed it home.... he said those are the only problems he know of, and he thinks it's possible to get it going. he drove it daily for about a year with out problems. the brakes work but need to be replaced soon. you could drive home though with no problem i think. it is in the parking lot of his apts, so it can stay there for a few days if you need it to... ad: The Throttle Position Sensor is not working. It need brakes, has no battery or tape deck. Update- My dad just told me the the Transmission computer is not working properly. The TPS won't send the signal to it to tell it to start. Also it's an Automatic. ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3098 *************************