From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 8 09:42:37 2011 From: xj-digest xj-digest Wednesday, June 8 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3287 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: technical question... have an idea... Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... RE: fsj: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... xj: RE: fsj: technical question... have an idea... RE: fsj: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... xj: RE: fsj: technical question... have an idea... XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 13:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: technical question... have an idea... I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right now... I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front axle. Thinking of making a low speed 4x4 setup using the electric motor to drive the front axle to get unstuck and started on slippery surfaces... the top speed would be limited to the motor's capabilities with just the axle gearing. Question I have is what motor would have enough power, in combination with an engine driving the rear axle, or by itself, to move around 4,000lbs through say 3.73 gears driving 235/75r15 (~29") tires up to 5 or maybe 10 mph. Would the motor be damaged if it were to spin up to freeway speeds by the axle? How hard would it be to great regenerative braking and charging with the same motor? so the question is, or more precisely, the questions are:... what electric motor might work? does it need a clutch setup? what speed could it be used as a generator/brake? I'm thinking that some kind of clutch / release mechanism would be needed to disengage the motor from the axle once the speed increased... that could also be used to provide additional braking, but if the speed is too great that might be a problem... mounting the motor to the front driveshaft would be done by brackets off the live axle housing... think american iron... live axles... lots of room underneath... then think of the drivetrain being removed and replaced with something out of a Mid-80's Mercedes Diesel complete with automatic transmission... the ultimate WVO burning hybrid 4x4... the other option of course is to use that $650 adapter kit... they are working on an automatic transmission version... so, I'm kind of looking for a nice clean TJ with an automatic, AC and a hard top... I think I'm going to sell my extra SD33T... or trade it for a Mercdes OM617... My '83 J10 stepside is getting an SD33T/TF727(RV) and NP208, with 3.54 gears, 235s. But, I want to build a nice TJ as our 2nd vehicle... has to be an automatic and has to have a/c and a hardtop... I'm sure my wife will prefer driving a TJ vs. a Rav4. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 12:12:22 +0100 From: Vincent Bentley Subject: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... Sorry, I can't answer your question directly but someone at http://www.diyelectriccar.com might be able to. - -Vince- On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 13:43 -0700, john wrote: > I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right now... > > I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front axle. > Thinking of making a low speed 4x4 setup using the electric motor to drive the > front axle to get unstuck and started on slippery surfaces... the top speed > would be limited to the motor's capabilities with just the axle gearing. > > Question I have is what motor would have enough power, in combination with > an engine driving the rear axle, or by itself, to move around 4,000lbs through say > 3.73 gears driving 235/75r15 (~29") tires up to 5 or maybe 10 mph. > > Would the motor be damaged if it were to spin up to freeway speeds by the axle? > > How hard would it be to great regenerative braking and charging with the same motor? > > > so the question is, or more precisely, the questions are:... > > what electric motor might work? > does it need a clutch setup? > what speed could it be used as a generator/brake? > > > I'm thinking that some kind of clutch / release mechanism would be needed to disengage > the motor from the axle once the speed increased... that could also be used to provide > additional braking, but if the speed is too great that might be a problem... > > mounting the motor to the front driveshaft would be done by brackets off the live axle > housing... > > think american iron... live axles... lots of room underneath... then think of the > drivetrain being removed and replaced with something out of a Mid-80's Mercedes Diesel > complete with automatic transmission... > > the ultimate WVO burning hybrid 4x4... > > the other option of course is to use that $650 adapter kit... they are working on an > automatic transmission version... > > so, I'm kind of looking for a nice clean TJ with an automatic, AC and a hard top... > > I think I'm going to sell my extra SD33T... or trade it for a Mercdes OM617... > > My '83 J10 stepside is getting an SD33T/TF727(RV) and NP208, with 3.54 gears, 235s. > > But, I want to build a nice TJ as our 2nd vehicle... has to be an automatic and has > to have a/c and a hardtop... I'm sure my wife will prefer driving a TJ vs. a Rav4. :) > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:30:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... thanx for the link Vince. http://www.diyelectriccar.com looks like a wealth of information. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, Vincent Bentley wrote: # Sorry, I can't answer your question directly but someone at # http://www.diyelectriccar.com might be able to. # # -Vince- # # On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 13:43 -0700, john wrote: # > I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right now... # > # > I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front axle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 09:01:46 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... It would be better to put the electric motor on the transfercase (like the design I had back in '97) because the power cables shouldn't be flexing all the time like they would on the axle. Passing through puddles won't short/corrode it as easily either. You should still have several batteries because the stress on the alternator and one battery would be too much. I had planned to put a bunch of lithion batteries under the box on the pickup to save weight. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:30:40 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... > > thanx for the link Vince. > http://www.diyelectriccar.com > > looks like a wealth of information. > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, Vincent Bentley wrote: > > # Sorry, I can't answer your question directly but someone at > # http://www.diyelectriccar.com might be able to. > # > # -Vince- > # > # On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 13:43 -0700, john wrote: > # > I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right now... > # > > # > I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front axle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 09:14:15 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: xj: RE: fsj: technical question... have an idea... You forget that alternators only make so much power. The battery only has so much capacity too. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 14:55:01 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: michelbalea-at-gmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: technical question... have an idea... > > batteries not needed... the engine will be running... one battery > could be used if desired... but what I envision is something used > rarely... mainly to get moving on slick roads during our rare snow events... > or if you're off on a forest service road and get into some muck... > > seriously, unless you're out wheeling how often does one really need 4x4? > > even on most trails you can run the majority of the trail in 2wd... :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Tue, 7 Jun 2011, Michel Balea wrote: > > # Possible, but you need to invest in battery.... we moved the 66 last weekend > # with a electric golf cart... only a few feet, to be on the downhill side, > # but it worked.... > # > # Michel > # > # On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:43 PM, john wrote: > # > # > I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right > # > now... > # > > # > I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front > # > axle. > # > Thinking of making a low speed 4x4 setup using the electric motor to drive > # > the > # > front axle to get unstuck and started on slippery surfaces... the top speed > # > would be limited to the motor's capabilities with just the axle gearing. > # > > # > Question I have is what motor would have enough power, in combination with > # > an engine driving the rear axle, or by itself, to move around 4,000lbs > # > through say > # > 3.73 gears driving 235/75r15 (~29") tires up to 5 or maybe 10 mph. > # > > # > Would the motor be damaged if it were to spin up to freeway speeds by the > # > axle? > # > > # > How hard would it be to great regenerative braking and charging with the > # > same motor? > # > > # > > # > so the question is, or more precisely, the questions are:... > # > > # > what electric motor might work? > # > does it need a clutch setup? > # > what speed could it be used as a generator/brake? > # > > # > > # > I'm thinking that some kind of clutch / release mechanism would be needed > # > to disengage > # > the motor from the axle once the speed increased... that could also be used > # > to provide > # > additional braking, but if the speed is too great that might be a > # > problem... > # > > # > mounting the motor to the front driveshaft would be done by brackets off > # > the live axle > # > housing... > # > > # > think american iron... live axles... lots of room underneath... then think > # > of the > # > drivetrain being removed and replaced with something out of a Mid-80's > # > Mercedes Diesel > # > complete with automatic transmission... > # > > # > the ultimate WVO burning hybrid 4x4... > # > > # > the other option of course is to use that $650 adapter kit... they are > # > working on an > # > automatic transmission version... > # > > # > so, I'm kind of looking for a nice clean TJ with an automatic, AC and a > # > hard top... > # > > # > I think I'm going to sell my extra SD33T... or trade it for a Mercdes > # > OM617... > # > > # > My '83 J10 stepside is getting an SD33T/TF727(RV) and NP208, with 3.54 > # > gears, 235s. > # > > # > But, I want to build a nice TJ as our 2nd vehicle... has to be an > # > automatic and has > # > to have a/c and a hardtop... I'm sure my wife will prefer driving a TJ vs. > # > a Rav4. :) > # > > # > john > # > > # > > # > > # > ----- > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > -o|||||o- > # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > > # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 09:41:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... if there were a transfer case I wouldn't need an electric motor... :) if one transplants and efficient, durable, long-lived automotive Diesel into a 4x4 but wishes to retain the complete and working drivetrain so everything works as designed, and only requires 4x4 to get out of one's driveway, well, then an electric motor on the front axle would solve that problem... :) don't know of too many Mercedes Diesels (that I can afford) that come with a transfer case. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, Jim Blair wrote: # # It would be better to put the electric motor on the transfercase (like the design I had back in '97) because the power cables shouldn't be flexing all the time like they would on the axle. Passing through puddles won't short/corrode it as easily either. You should still have several batteries because the stress on the alternator and one battery would be too much. I had planned to put a bunch of lithion batteries under the box on the pickup to save weight. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:30:40 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: # > Subject: fsj: Re: xj: technical question... have an idea... # > # > thanx for the link Vince. # > http://www.diyelectriccar.com # > # > looks like a wealth of information. # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > -o|||||o- # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, Vincent Bentley wrote: # > # > # Sorry, I can't answer your question directly but someone at # > # http://www.diyelectriccar.com might be able to. # > # # > # -Vince- # > # # > # On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 13:43 -0700, john wrote: # > # > I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right now... # > # > # > # > I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front axle. # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 09:42:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: RE: fsj: technical question... have an idea... how long is my driveway? or how long does it take to reach 5 or 10 mph? :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 8 Jun 2011, Jim Blair wrote: # # You forget that alternators only make so much power. The battery only has so much capacity too. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 14:55:01 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: michelbalea-at-gmail.com # > CC: fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: Re: fsj: technical question... have an idea... # > # > batteries not needed... the engine will be running... one battery # > could be used if desired... but what I envision is something used # > rarely... mainly to get moving on slick roads during our rare snow events... # > or if you're off on a forest service road and get into some muck... # > # > seriously, unless you're out wheeling how often does one really need 4x4? # > # > even on most trails you can run the majority of the trail in 2wd... :) # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > -o|||||o- # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Tue, 7 Jun 2011, Michel Balea wrote: # > # > # Possible, but you need to invest in battery.... we moved the 66 last weekend # > # with a electric golf cart... only a few feet, to be on the downhill side, # > # but it worked.... # > # # > # Michel # > # # > # On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:43 PM, john wrote: # > # # > # > I've got an idea... actually several, but will try to stick to one right # > # > now... # > # > # > # > I want to attach and electric (DC) motor to an axle, preferrably the front # > # > axle. # > # > Thinking of making a low speed 4x4 setup using the electric motor to drive # > # > the # > # > front axle to get unstuck and started on slippery surfaces... the top speed # > # > would be limited to the motor's capabilities with just the axle gearing. # > # > # > # > Question I have is what motor would have enough power, in combination with # > # > an engine driving the rear axle, or by itself, to move around 4,000lbs # > # > through say # > # > 3.73 gears driving 235/75r15 (~29") tires up to 5 or maybe 10 mph. # > # > # > # > Would the motor be damaged if it were to spin up to freeway speeds by the # > # > axle? # > # > # > # > How hard would it be to great regenerative braking and charging with the # > # > same motor? # > # > # > # > # > # > so the question is, or more precisely, the questions are:... # > # > # > # > what electric motor might work? # > # > does it need a clutch setup? # > # > what speed could it be used as a generator/brake? # > # > # > # > # > # > I'm thinking that some kind of clutch / release mechanism would be needed # > # > to disengage # > # > the motor from the axle once the speed increased... that could also be used # > # > to provide # > # > additional braking, but if the speed is too great that might be a # > # > problem... # > # > # > # > mounting the motor to the front driveshaft would be done by brackets off # > # > the live axle # > # > housing... # > # > # > # > think american iron... live axles... lots of room underneath... then think # > # > of the # > # > drivetrain being removed and replaced with something out of a Mid-80's # > # > Mercedes Diesel # > # > complete with automatic transmission... # > # > # > # > the ultimate WVO burning hybrid 4x4... # > # > # > # > the other option of course is to use that $650 adapter kit... they are # > # > working on an # > # > automatic transmission version... # > # > # > # > so, I'm kind of looking for a nice clean TJ with an automatic, AC and a # > # > hard top... # > # > # > # > I think I'm going to sell my extra SD33T... or trade it for a Mercdes # > # > OM617... # > # > # > # > My '83 J10 stepside is getting an SD33T/TF727(RV) and NP208, with 3.54 # > # > gears, 235s. # > # > # > # > But, I want to build a nice TJ as our 2nd vehicle... has to be an # > # > automatic and has # > # > to have a/c and a hardtop... I'm sure my wife will prefer driving a TJ vs. # > # > a Rav4. :) # > # > # > # > john # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > -o|||||o- # > # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > # # ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3287 *************************