From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Wed May 4 11:03:01 2011 From: xj-digest xj-digest Wednesday, May 4 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3287 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: fsj: Nissan cummins diesel (fwd) xj: another Diesel to consider... xj: reality check on W210 XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 09:47:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: fsj: Nissan cummins diesel (fwd) passing this along from one of the guys on the fsj list... if anyone has seen the rumors anywhere, please share... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Troy Phagan Some useless USA diesel trivia and gossip: Cummins has been developing a smaller diesel suitable for 1/2 tons pickups. I think it was originally intended for Dodge, but the project has been in limbo for a while with the Fiat ownership changed, etc. Apparently Nissan has picked up the project, and will have this newer, smaller 5.0L Cummins diesel in 2013 Nissan Titan's. However, there have also been rumors that the new model Titan's will be based upon the Dodge/ Chrysler/ Ram platform anyway. Nissan is looking to stay in the full size truck market, but wants to share engineering development costs, etc. Of course, the GM 4.5L baby Duramax was virtually completed, but put on the shelf during the government bailout situation. We have not heard of anything involved bringing back yet, so it all remains to be seen. - -- - -Troy Troy Phagan C.R.P. 4x4& Auto Accessories 2102 9th ST Greeley, CO 80631 970-351-8603 fax: 970-353-3066 tsp-at-crptruck.com www.crptruck.com www.smilingcharleys.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 23:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: another Diesel to consider... ok... so as many of you suspected from the onset of this latest adventure, we're not toyota rav4 people... while it is a very nice vehicle it's just not the same as a Mercedes... My wife doesn't like watching the fuel gauge move... even though it's getting over 20mpg it's just not good enough... She needs a slo-mo-needle for that costly hole in the back of the rig... :) so, we looked at a 1997 E300 Diesel with 216,000 miles on it tonight... the guy is asking $6,000 for it, which is in the neighborhood of book value pretty much any way you search it... top retail about $6700... etc. Anyway, there's a couple of technical questions I have, and hitting a wide audience to get the answers... sorry for being slightly off topic... if you know nothing about Mercedes Diesels of the W210 era feel free to look at the pictures and just skim or delete... no need to reply with apologies. ;) I understand... I know you would offer advice if you had it... thank you... :) here's the pictures: http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1997-E300-Diesel/ALL.html the reason he's selling is that he bought himself a '99 E300 so his girl friend could have this '97 E300, you can see both in the pictures... well, she up and decided that she wanted to go back to Montana... leaving him with both E300s... he's owned the car for over 3 years and has paperwork showing that it's well maintained over the total of three or four owners... car came up from Oregon... recognize the shop down there that serviced it... also has been serviced by Phil Smart and another shop I know of up here... both reputable... even has a car fax on it from when he bought it, for what it's worth, it's clean... the car is straight and clean, it was getting dusk when we looked at it, the color threw the sensor off a bit on the camera... same color as our '91... smoke silver, some call it gold, beige, champaign, whatever... it's a nice color... matches my Jetta and my J10... the house... etc. ;) It's the reason I decided to look at it... it's just a nice color... and the price wasn't unrealistic... THE TECHNICAL ISSUES/QUESTIONS: - -------------------------------------- 1) check engine light comes on... easily reset from the dash... a P0400 code indicating a bad EGR valve. http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1997-E300-Diesel/JM7_7199.jpg - not a worry, what's it cost? can it be plugged up and/or disconnected? Didn't seem to affect the ability to drive the car and our emissions test doesn't check the computers on the Diesels... tailpipe test only... (at least on my '03, and my '91... so we're good) Could I just reset on startup and ignore it? Could I just plug it up like I did on my '91 300D? 2) when you stand on the go pedal the transmission won't shift up unless you let it off a bit... the seller claims his 99 does the exact same thing... otherwise the transmission shifts fine, crisp, and precise...no hunting or slop... downshifts immediately... Driving it normally you notice nothing except smooth acceleration and quiet... quieter than the '91 300d... most certainly quieter than the '03 Jetta and quieter than the '01 Rav4. 3) the glow plug light stayed on a bit after starting... my guess on that is a bad glow plug... it did go off after a little bit... kind of a rough start... but it has been sitting for months... once I hit the go pedal and rev'd it up a bit it got happy it and idled smooth... once warm, smooth and quiet... I'm thinking the fuel isn't the best right now too... the low fuel lamp works... ;) 4) he had been running Veggie Oil through an expensive kit that he moved over to his '99... didn't take time to check the setup... obviously it wasn't a bad idea or he wouldn't do it again... and he's a certified installer of the systems... can't remember the name of it... there's only two or three that have a computerized setup... engine ran well so I'm thinking this isn't a concern, under the hood shows no sign of it having been there. 5) the radio wanted it's code... entered the code and it was happy... this could be one of those issues with the W210, for $100 I'll yank it and drop an after market in... don't care... looking at the picture it says CD... hmmmm I wonder where it's inserted... RTM... ;) 6) the climate control seemed to work fine... once I learned Klingon and had some back seat coaching, clearly this system will require that we RTM. BUT, the display wasn't reading in Klingon, English or metric... but it worked... suspect that sitting for a bit might have caused some corrosion... see: http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1997-E300-Diesel/JM7_7195.jpg http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1997-E300-Diesel/JM7_7180.jpg it's like the lcd is just skipping segments... I've heard that the climate control in these things can run about $1300... was that for parts or labor too? ;) so far this is the only item that has me mildly concerned... but as it's working ok a bad LCD readout isn't a worry... but could lead to other failures later... time to share the horror stories W210 owners... :) 7) the steering seemed a little heavy to me... but it seemed to track ok... could be a little more positive centering, seller says that there is still a guarantee on the FEA at a local shop... of course I drove over there in the Jetta and you could turn that wheel with a wet noodle... and man did the E300 have a nice tight turning radius... I did about three circles in the middle of the road... sure, it was a deserted back road, only annoyed the occupants... :) 8) the headlights are not clouded... but he has a set of aftermarket projector units he paid $800 for that he put on his '99, see the pictures... he'll sell me the set for $400... any thoughts on those? 9) any other concerns, issues or questions I need to ask? The car started fine cold, braked smoothly, shifted fine if I kept my foot out of the injection pump, all the windows and sunroof worked, stereo worked, defrosters worked, vents worked, temp went up or down on command (just didn't display properly)... oh yeah, he put in a new a/c compressor and drier... spent about $1500... that is the ONLY large ticket item repair that the car has seen... has a folder showing info from it's beginning... no reason to believe he or a prior owner was hiding anything. Other than a few electronic issues that shouldn't affect operation... should they? the body and interior are immaculate... paint is perfect... all glass is good... the car has been mostly sitting for about 8 months, tabs expired in January... it was used to go to Idaho... owner claims 38 mpg on that trip. When I was talking to him on the phone I asked if he'd hop in that thing and drive it to Chicago right now... he said absolutely, I said great, because I'm leaving on Tuesday... that cracked him up... When I asked my wife which car she'd want to take to Chicago... the Jetta at 48 mpg or the Benz at 38 mpg... she was kind of put off that I even had to ask... ;) I think she likes the car... So, if the mechanical/electrical issues are manageable and not indicative of some massive underlying and ongoing problem that can't be solved with a little creative monster carport redesign... I may make the guy an offer tomorrow and do an oil change, pump up the tires and point that thing at Chicago... But, before I do that... I'll wait to hear from the collective... I started several of these lists back in the '90s to help folks out just like me... so, I'm listening... :) specs on the E300 at the bottom of that page... thanx for your assist... and if anyone is interested in a very nice, very clean, mechanically perfect, no flaws and only one minor ding on the rear fender, 2001 Rav4 with about 116k on it, let me know... we paid top book for it... $9800... the guy was asking $10k... and I would have had no problem paying that for it... ;) it is getting 21 mpg with regular unleaded, 23 mpg with premium... interesting... 9% difference in mileage, about 9% difference in costs. For the record, the issues I've heard about for the W210s are typically electrical: climate control, radio, wiring harness under hood, diesel fuel fittings (they were also replaced on this one), wheel lug nuts - not sure what the issue is, head light fogging and issues with windows... the 3.0L NA Diesel OM606 doesn't have a bad reputation that I'm aware of and the 5 speed automatic seems to be pretty solid in reputation as well. Any show stoppers kids? :) thanx, john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ vehicle city/hwy engine/trans/xfr - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2003 VW Jetta GLS Wagon TDI 40/48 mpg 1.9L TDI/5spd 2001 Toyota RAV4 L 23/27 mpg 2.0L EFI/AT/AWD 1983 Jeep J10 long box (SJ) ??/15 mpg 5.9L AT/NP208 (best mpg 17.68) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1983 Jeep J10 Stepside (SJ) (Superdawg)- under construction since 1999 getting '80 Scout SD33T Diesel, TF727/NP208 mpg: 20/24 expected -o|||||o- http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 11:02:26 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: reality check on W210 so far have gotten outstanding input... both positive and some less than positive. (again, sorry for the off-topic but discussions like this seem to cross list boundaries and the analytical process likely help folks in a similiar strait... buying a used car of any model/type requires careful thought and of course input from others...) so, after looking last night, getting valued input and pricing parts/repairs... I'm a little hesitant after doing the math... I believe the car would make it to Chicago and back, but after the demise of my 124 I would want to verify that the timing chain has been replaced before I leave. My wife is concerned, and I'm mildly concerned, that the guy was running Veggie Oil through a computerized kit... the power wasn't exciting on the car... but from what I've read the OM606 NA isn't known for an abundance. One W210 Diesel owner suggested I get a '98 with a turbo... he loved the car but faced many of the same issues I've got listed below. Of course Mike Frank from the Diesel Benz list has the most experience with the W210 in the gas world and seems to confirm much of what I've listed below and provided some very helpful links to details about the electronics that are greatly appreciated (and shared here for others). Thanx for all the great links everyone, reading through them all now. I'm not frightened as much by electronics issues, other than the cost of the parts... I have some ideas on some design mods and power filtering that might reduce problems... most electronics issues in automotive environments have to do with thermal stress and dirty power. Dirty power can be addressed with filters... chokes, caps, etc. thermal stress by providing air flow... and of course buying the latest version of the electronics from the dealer often solve most of the problems as well. The other issue is vibration and solder connections... most early German electronics seem to have failed solder connections, simply reflowing the solder joints seems to help a lot, at least in the 123 and a little in the 124 world. Bottom line is I'm not opposed to buying this '97 E300 (W210)... if I can get it for a fair price based on what I've found, but what's concerning me is the timing chain and leaving on Tuesday morning... and if we don't take it to Chicago then why not wait for a '98 or '99 to get a turbo... all the W210s will have the same electronic issues... the OM606 and the 5 speed automatic have great reviews... so it all depends on the actual car and it's electronics. What's interesting is that my wife also expressed the fact that she liked the way our 124 looked... So I'm beginning to think that I may make a low offer on this car... dealer suggested around $3500, I was initially thinking $4500 (seller is asking $6k), but after looking at the details below, $3500 seems a safer bet, unless the timing chain was done less than 100k ago... but one thing comes to mind as I heard the engine idle... that low in the engine rattle like I heard on my 124 before its demise and what I heard on paul's 124, but not on bruce's after he had his chain replaced... so my guess is the chain is original and before I drive 4,500 miles it's going to be replaced... which means unless I make some quick phone calls and do some serious wheeling-dealing and begging a shop to do the work, it ain't gonna happen before we leave on Tuesday... I know my TDI is ready to roll...not as nice, not as comfortable but I have every confidence in it from tires to the top of the antenna... oh yeah, that's the other thing... the Michelin's have maybe 30% tread left... that's another $400-600 if the lug nuts don't break on removal... :) so, here's the detailed list... my review last night identified a few potential problems and a couple that have to be dealt with: must be dealt with: - ------------------- timing chain est. $1500 (around $500 for parts, a grand labor) - phil smart recommends immediately... egr valve est. $ 800 (part wholesale is 600, can find one for $250 aftermarket, but can also be blocked???) potential issues: - ------------------- climate control display est. $1000 (part wholesale is 757, retail 946 - aftermarket 835)) rack assembly (steering heavy) est $1500 (part wholesale is 1140, plus core) glow plugs retail $47ea/whs 33 - problem is glow plugs can break upon removal. not good... issues identified of little or no concern right now: - -------------------- body / chassis rust - ha! not a spot anywhere... see sig file about mold... ;) lug nuts - can break off and be a pain - will replace and use anti-seize radio issues - had to enter code... could just be from sitting... seemed ok... aftermarket in future... word from owners is that it's great to drive, sadly, one has even been crash tested by list member... with good results... word from the streets is 38mpg is a myth... expect 31 mpg. - which is interesting... my '91 300D actually got 39.75 mpg ONCE... cruising I-5 from the bay to seattle only saw mid-30's... average for life right at 30mpg. - --------------------------------- next step... call the guy, ask about the timing chain... describe what I've found and see if he'd consider $3500 then plan on spending another $1500 to bring it up to snuff, maybe by Tuesday morning... let's see, that would be $5k for it... book is right in that ballbark... he's asking $6k but hasn't been able to sell it... hmmm, wonder why... ;) Folks... once again your input, advice and wisdom is greatly appreciated... my guess is I'll be driving my Jetta to Chi-town... but who knows... stranger things have happened... the only thing keeping me from hoping in that E300 right now and heading east is that timing chain... there is a '96 on CL for almost $8k with a lot fewer miles... that's the first year of the W210 and even the parts guy at Phil Smart seemed to think avoiding the first year of a model was a good plan. These cars are out there and don't move really fast... the public, surprisingly, seems to be wary of these units... guess it's all an education process... I've learned a lot in less than 24 hrs thanx to my friends on the internet. here's the car in question: http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1997-E300-Diesel/ALL.html here's most of the links provided: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/e-class-w210-1995/ http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/mercedes-benz/e-class-saloon-1995.aspx http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=w210+projector&_sacat=See-All-Categories http://www.eclassbenz.com/2010/02/how-to-diagnose-air-conditioning-malfunctions/ http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1384396-automatic-climate-control-diagnostic-trouble-code.html http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1166514-climate-control-diagnostic-tool.html http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/stats.shtml http://www.google.com/search?q=OM606+reliability&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/375331-w124-vs-w210-reliability.html http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=231546 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=122029 http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=155479 bless you all for your patience with my inquiries, research and slightly off-topic activity...and of course for your valued input... after typing all this the "fleece" test will be the guy's acceptance of a $3500 offer... I really don't know which way he'll go... if I were him and knew what was going on I'd likely take it... but if I consider that I'll be offering just slightly more than half of what he is asking, I might get a less than enthusiastic/postive response... shields up... dialing... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3287 *************************