From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Jun 26 12:46:01 2011 From: xj-digest xj-digest Sunday, June 26 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3296 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? RE: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 23:41:06 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? there's a city nearby that has redlight cameras... Lynnwood, WA. The intersections there had a lot of people running the red lights (probably because our lights aren't syncronized and some take a long time...) We've seen 4, 5 cars just go right through... so, there was a good reason to install them... however, it seems that the time that the yellow light is displayed is shorter than it used to be. I can't find any specific laws in the RCW for Washington state to state the minimum time required. I found one reference that there was a standard of 3.6 seconds minimum for a 35 mph zone. Well, the reason I bring this point up is that my wife got the picture of our car taken... she's driven this same intersection for about 25 years... is a very safe driver with nearly 40 years of ticketless driving. She said she was coming into the intersection to turn right and was slowing down to turn and the light went red quickly... snapping her picture. She said she would have had to slam on the brakes to stop in time... I may go to this intersection (it's by the barnes and noble on 196th/alderwood mall way) and time the yellow lights... my wife doesn't make stuff up and reading through a number of complaints on the web it may be that the city of lynnwood has tweaked the lights a bit in their favor. I don't part easily with $124. Anyone in WA know the RCW for traffic light time requirements? found an article that legislation is to be introduced about it.... http://www.king5.com/news/politics/Lawmaker-wants-to-regulate-yellow-light-times-114742269.html any suggestions or ideas are apprecited... in other news, I managed to get a few more things fixed on my '83 J10 (#27)... steering stabilizer, wiper arms, connectors on the coil... saw a really ugly dog today as well: (pictures of FSJ included) http://fotomeister.us/2011/06-Jun-25-rainbow-yard-BoHenry-FSJparts/ALL.html john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 01:32:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? Geez! Don't get me started on red-light cameras...or speed cameras... First of all, you are correct. They *DO* shorten the yellow light timing in order to catch more violators. It's a common adjustment that they make so that they can generate more revenue. This is quite well known and there have been several lawsuits associate with this practice. In fact, the city of Balitmore shortend the yellow light on just one intersection and collected thousands of dollars in traffic light camera violation fines before one victim took them to court. Here is an interesting link about this: http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/bad-choice Second, it has been proven that traffic light cameras *CAUSE* more accidents than they prevent! Motorists who stop suddenly because they do not want to get a ticket for going through a possible red light while the light is yellow, cause more rear end collisions than at traffic lights without cameras! And third, traffic enforcement cameras are unconstitutional. The US Constitution allows the accused to confront the accuser. And yeah, I know that the state is the accuser, but who do I cross examine if I do not trust the camera's interpretation of the events that *LEAD UP* to the picture being taken? Here is one way that the camera can lie! In my youth, I was a very naughty boy in my driving habits (probably shouldn't have learned to drive at Bill Scott's racing school at Summit Point!) and had to take the drivers class to keep from losing my drivers license. The State Policeman who was teaching the course told the class that the number one duty of a driver is to avoid an accident at *ALL COSTS*. In one example he gave, he said that if you are stopped, or stopping at a traffic light and you notice a driver behind you barreling down upon you at an increased rate of speed, and the only way to prevent the accident is to proceed, safely, through the red light intersection, then it is perfectly legal to do so! If a police officer were present to see the incident occur, then he/she would have witnessed the entire activity and would conclude that you legally prevented an accident from occuring. A traffic camera cannot make that determination. It has no knowledge of what transpired just before or just after it took your picture. So therefore it has no way of determining if your travel through the intersection was legal or not. So, the traffic camera cannot be trusted to get the entire "picture" of the event! And lastly, the images that the camera generates are not selected for vetting by a police officer or by a deputized, traind person or otherwise official of the state. It is an employee of the company who manufactures the cameras. (and in one particularly famous case, even sent overseas to a foreign outsourcer) This individual has no claim to impartiality and for all we know overlooks images that the individual may be friends with or has been paid to look the otherway. There is no cross check on this individual's work and images not selected for prosecution are discarded and erased. *THESE* are my problems with these machines... Lucky for me, I live in a state where the use of these cameras has not been allowed by the state's constitution. We do have some in incorporated towns and cities in the state, but on state roads, they are not allowed...yet! Ed web/gadget guru - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Bin Laden's last internet post: BRB, some one is at the door..." - - from a comment on the InterWebs - --- On Sun, 6/26/11, john wrote: From: john Subject: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? To: Date: Sunday, June 26, 2011, 2:41 AM there's a city nearby that has redlight cameras... Lynnwood, WA. The intersections there had a lot of people running the red lights (probably because our lights aren't syncronized and some take a long time...) We've seen 4, 5 cars just go right through... so, there was a good reason to install them... however, it seems that the time that the yellow light is displayed is shorter than it used to be. I can't find any specific laws in the RCW for Washington state to state the minimum time required. I found one reference that there was a standard of 3.6 seconds minimum for a 35 mph zone. Well, the reason I bring this point up is that my wife got the picture of our car taken... she's driven this same intersection for about 25 years... is a very safe driver with nearly 40 years of ticketless driving. She said she was coming into the intersection to turn right and was slowing down to turn and the light went red quickly... snapping her picture. She said she would have had to slam on the brakes to stop in time... I may go to this intersection (it's by the barnes and noble on 196th/alderwood mall way) and time the yellow lights... my wife doesn't make stuff up and reading through a number of complaints on the web it may be that the city of lynnwood has tweaked the lights a bit in their favor. I don't part easily with $124. Anyone in WA know the RCW for traffic light time requirements? found an article that legislation is to be introduced about it.... http://www.king5.com/news/politics/Lawmaker-wants-to-regulate-yellow-light-ti mes-114742269.html any suggestions or ideas are apprecited... in other news, I managed to get a few more things fixed on my '83 J10 (#27)... steering stabilizer, wiper arms, connectors on the coil... saw a really ugly dog today as well: (pictures of FSJ included) http://fotomeister.us/2011/06-Jun-25-rainbow-yard-BoHenry-FSJparts/ALL.html john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:51:35 -0400 From: "Darren K. Page" Subject: RE: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? This was on the msnbc site this week: Challenges to red light cameras span US - US news - Life - msnbc.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43521646/ns/us_news-life/t/challenges-red-light- cameras-span-us/ Darren - -----Original Message----- From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Ed Kummel Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:33 AM To: xj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? Geez! Don't get me started on red-light cameras...or speed cameras... First of all, you are correct. They *DO* shorten the yellow light timing in order to catch more violators. It's a common adjustment that they make so that they can generate more revenue. This is quite well known and there have been several lawsuits associate with this practice. In fact, the city of Balitmore shortend the yellow light on just one intersection and collected thousands of dollars in traffic light camera violation fines before one victim took them to court. Here is an interesting link about this: http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/bad-choice Second, it has been proven that traffic light cameras *CAUSE* more accidents than they prevent! Motorists who stop suddenly because they do not want to get a ticket for going through a possible red light while the light is yellow, cause more rear end collisions than at traffic lights without cameras! And third, traffic enforcement cameras are unconstitutional. The US Constitution allows the accused to confront the accuser. And yeah, I know that the state is the accuser, but who do I cross examine if I do not trust the camera's interpretation of the events that *LEAD UP* to the picture being taken? Here is one way that the camera can lie! In my youth, I was a very naughty boy in my driving habits (probably shouldn't have learned to drive at Bill Scott's racing school at Summit Point!) and had to take the drivers class to keep from losing my drivers license. The State Policeman who was teaching the course told the class that the number one duty of a driver is to avoid an accident at *ALL COSTS*. In one example he gave, he said that if you are stopped, or stopping at a traffic light and you notice a driver behind you barreling down upon you at an increased rate of speed, and the only way to prevent the accident is to proceed, safely, through the red light intersection, then it is perfectly legal to do so! If a police officer were present to see the incident occur, then he/she would have witnessed the entire activity and would conclude that you legally prevented an accident from occuring. A traffic camera cannot make that determination. It has no knowledge of what transpired just before or just after it took your picture. So therefore it has no way of determining if your travel through the intersection was legal or not. So, the traffic camera cannot be trusted to get the entire "picture" of the event! And lastly, the images that the camera generates are not selected for vetting by a police officer or by a deputized, traind person or otherwise official of the state. It is an employee of the company who manufactures the cameras. (and in one particularly famous case, even sent overseas to a foreign outsourcer) This individual has no claim to impartiality and for all we know overlooks images that the individual may be friends with or has been paid to look the otherway. There is no cross check on this individual's work and images not selected for prosecution are discarded and erased. *THESE* are my problems with these machines... Lucky for me, I live in a state where the use of these cameras has not been allowed by the state's constitution. We do have some in incorporated towns and cities in the state, but on state roads, they are not allowed...yet! Ed web/gadget guru - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Bin Laden's last internet post: BRB, some one is at the door..." - - from a comment on the InterWebs - --- On Sun, 6/26/11, john wrote: From: john Subject: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? To: Date: Sunday, June 26, 2011, 2:41 AM there's a city nearby that has redlight cameras... Lynnwood, WA. The intersections there had a lot of people running the red lights (probably because our lights aren't syncronized and some take a long time...) We've seen 4, 5 cars just go right through... so, there was a good reason to install them... however, it seems that the time that the yellow light is displayed is shorter than it used to be. I can't find any specific laws in the RCW for Washington state to state the minimum time required. I found one reference that there was a standard of 3.6 seconds minimum for a 35 mph zone. Well, the reason I bring this point up is that my wife got the picture of our car taken... she's driven this same intersection for about 25 years... is a very safe driver with nearly 40 years of ticketless driving. She said she was coming into the intersection to turn right and was slowing down to turn and the light went red quickly... snapping her picture. She said she would have had to slam on the brakes to stop in time... I may go to this intersection (it's by the barnes and noble on 196th/alderwood mall way) and time the yellow lights... my wife doesn't make stuff up and reading through a number of complaints on the web it may be that the city of lynnwood has tweaked the lights a bit in their favor. I don't part easily with $124. Anyone in WA know the RCW for traffic light time requirements? found an article that legislation is to be introduced about it.... http://www.king5.com/news/politics/Lawmaker-wants-to-regulate-yellow-light-t i mes-114742269.html any suggestions or ideas are apprecited... in other news, I managed to get a few more things fixed on my '83 J10 (#27)... steering stabilizer, wiper arms, connectors on the coil... saw a really ugly dog today as well: (pictures of FSJ included) http://fotomeister.us/2011/06-Jun-25-rainbow-yard-BoHenry-FSJparts/ALL.html john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:18:38 -0400 From: Christopher Wilson Subject: Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? The pictures look like she's taking a right on red. Is that illegal? On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 2:41 AM, john wrote: > there's a city nearby that has redlight cameras... Lynnwood, WA. > > The intersections there had a lot of people running the red lights > (probably because our lights > aren't syncronized and some take a long time...) We've seen 4, 5 cars > just go right through... > > so, there was a good reason to install them... > > however, it seems that the time that the yellow light is displayed is > shorter than it used to be. > I can't find any specific laws in the RCW for Washington state to state the > minimum time required. > > I found one reference that there was a standard of 3.6 seconds minimum for > a 35 mph zone. > > Well, the reason I bring this point up is that my wife got the picture of > our car taken... she's > driven this same intersection for about 25 years... is a very safe driver > with nearly 40 years > of ticketless driving. > > She said she was coming into the intersection to turn right and was slowing > down to turn > and the light went red quickly... snapping her picture. She said she would > have had to slam > on the brakes to stop in time... > > I may go to this intersection (it's by the barnes and noble on > 196th/alderwood mall way) and time > the yellow lights... my wife doesn't make stuff up and reading through a > number of complaints > on the web it may be that the city of lynnwood has tweaked the lights a bit > in their favor. > > I don't part easily with $124. > > Anyone in WA know the RCW for traffic light time requirements? found an > article that legislation > is to be introduced about it.... > > http://www.king5.com/news/politics/Lawmaker-wants-to-regulate-yellow-light-times-114742269.html > > any suggestions or ideas are apprecited... > > in other news, I managed to get a few more things fixed on my '83 J10 > (#27)... steering stabilizer, > wiper arms, connectors on the coil... > > saw a really ugly dog today as well: (pictures of FSJ included) > http://fotomeister.us/2011/06-Jun-25-rainbow-yard-BoHenry-FSJparts/ALL.html > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 19:45:03 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? Yes, perfectly. She's been driving this intersection for about 25 years, after the cameras were installed they reduced the duration of the yellow. They don't show the green so I couldn't time the entire yellow cycle but it's at least 3 seconds, which from what I can tell meets the federal requirement, but is short, even at 35mph. *** john at http://wagoneers.com *** - -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Wilson Sender: owner-xj-at-digest.net Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:18:38 To: Reply-To: xj-at-digest.netSubject: Re: xj: red light cameras - how long yellow??? The pictures look like she's taking a right on red. Is that illegal? On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 2:41 AM, john wrote: > there's a city nearby that has redlight cameras... Lynnwood, WA. > > The intersections there had a lot of people running the red lights > (probably because our lights > aren't syncronized and some take a long time...) We've seen 4, 5 cars > just go right through... > > so, there was a good reason to install them... > > however, it seems that the time that the yellow light is displayed is > shorter than it used to be. > I can't find any specific laws in the RCW for Washington state to state the > minimum time required. > > I found one reference that there was a standard of 3.6 seconds minimum for > a 35 mph zone. > > Well, the reason I bring this point up is that my wife got the picture of > our car taken... she's > driven this same intersection for about 25 years... is a very safe driver > with nearly 40 years > of ticketless driving. > > She said she was coming into the intersection to turn right and was slowing > down to turn > and the light went red quickly... snapping her picture. She said she would > have had to slam > on the brakes to stop in time... > > I may go to this intersection (it's by the barnes and noble on > 196th/alderwood mall way) and time > the yellow lights... my wife doesn't make stuff up and reading through a > number of complaints > on the web it may be that the city of lynnwood has tweaked the lights a bit > in their favor. > > I don't part easily with $124. > > Anyone in WA know the RCW for traffic light time requirements? found an > article that legislation > is to be introduced about it.... > > http://www.king5.com/news/politics/Lawmaker-wants-to-regulate-yellow-light-times-114742269.html > > any suggestions or ideas are apprecited... > > in other news, I managed to get a few more things fixed on my '83 J10 > (#27)... steering stabilizer, > wiper arms, connectors on the coil... > > saw a really ugly dog today as well: (pictures of FSJ included) > http://fotomeister.us/2011/06-Jun-25-rainbow-yard-BoHenry-FSJparts/ALL.html > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3296 *************************