From owner-xj-digest@digest.net Tue Jan 8 03:45:28 2013 From: xj-digest To: xj-digest@digest.net Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:45:04 +0000 Subject: xj-digest V1 #3455 xj-digest Tuesday, January 8 2013 Volume 01 : Number 3455 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: RE: fsj: "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass xj: RE: [db] "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass (fwd) xj: refrigerants Re: xj: refrigerants XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest@digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request@digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:20:16 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: xj: RE: fsj: "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass All the AC stop leaks are also deadly to breath even slightly. It clogs the alveoli so oxygen can't be picked up. > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 00:46:02 -0800 > From: john@wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass > > http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons-h umans-melts-glass/ > > there was NOTHING wrong with R-12... except that Dupont's patent expired... and some popular JUNK Science... > freon is HEAVIER than air and inert... not one person has provided a rational explanation how an inert gas > heavier than air can get to 30,000 feet... I think the response is... "duh"... > > R12 was efficient, safe, harmless and effective... > R134 is inefficient and nasty... and this new stuff even worse... > > > john > ----- > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation > http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" > Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dr Fred C > To: John > Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 23:58:08 -0800 > Subject: [windows-1252] ?Green? A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, > Melts Glass | The Lonely Conservative > > http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons-h umans-melts-glass/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:15:00 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: RE: [db] "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass (fwd) http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-658892-1-1536147-1-0-0-0-0-0-11700-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html someone made a comment about WMD: There was a Dr Who episode like this... The Sontarans... Episodes 4 and 5 Season 4 - 2009. A "green" technical solution provided for free that eliminated all pollution... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Steve Morelen To: john@wagoneers.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 16:42:49 -0500 Subject: RE: [db] "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-658892-1-1536147-1-0-0-0-0-0-11700-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 00:46:02 -0800 > From: john@wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: [db] "Green" A/C Coolant Causes Fires, Poisons Humans, Melts Glass > > http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons-humans-melts-glass/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 23:21:14 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: refrigerants interesting issue, thanx for those sharing additional links and info... the toxicity of the newer refrigerants is disturbing, as is their reduced efficiency... I still contend that there is insufficient scientific data to support the theory of r-12, an inert, stable and heavier than air gas, from being able to get into the stratosphere to affect the ozone in a hemisphere on the other side of the most heavily industrialized part of the planet. It's illogical and inconclusive. R134 is some nasty stuff... this new product looks to be even worse... are we really applying good scientific methodology or rolling with emotions? I'm sorry, but I work with facts and data when it comes to most things. Ultimately there is a question of faith at some point in the process. I understand about faith and will freely admit what I accept by faith. But science is not one of them. Mysteries of science lead to discoveries and knowledge... but there is NO mystery in my mind that freon is getting into the stratosphere... this was political junk science. I recommend checking out Ben Stein's "expelled", there's something there worth thinking about... but I stand by the information I have on this subject. Banning R-12 and other refrigerants like it was not based on scientific, statistically valid data. Consider some basic facts and see if it makes sense: the total volume of the atmosphere. the total amount of freon ever produced. Is there a statistically significant amount of freon that possibly be distributed on the other side of the world and some how elevated to the stratoshpere to affect the ozone layer... something that we do not fully comprehend in its cyclic activity... and are also learning that there is some evidence of holes prior to the industrial revoluton... consider also the chemical content of a volcano... and how much it produces compared to freon... the problem may very well NOT be a manmade problem, and likely is NOT... it's illogical and inconclusive. Believing that something is when there is little evidence to support that belief is not faith... that's make-believe... or wishful thinking... In the years since freon has been targeted I've asked physcists, chemists, engineers, refrigeration specialists and anyone who has a thought about it... no one has presented a plausible explanation as to how that inert, heavier than air gas does it's evil up there... sadly, it's only the conspiracy types with the Dupont patent expiring that make any cents... excuse me, sense.... So now... we're facing yet another toxic C'hemical under the hood, and one that may very well catch on fire when mixed with oil... hmmm... like the compressor pump oil perhaps? Not good... ok, I'm off my soap box... if you have facts and data to prove my point wrong, feel free... hope I didn't offend anyone... just trying to understand the logic and science of this mess... I enjoy a good working a/c in my vehicle... :) earlier links: http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-658892-1-1536147-1-0-0-0-0-0-11700-0 - -0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons - -humans-melts-glass/ http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11667 - quote below Limited test data is public Only limited data has been released publicly on the Daimler test. It reportedly simulated a head-on collision, following a drive cycle in a small car, that got turbocharger and exhaust surfaces very hot. At some point the radiator fan had been turned off, simulating a fan failure and further raising of turbo/exhaust temperatures. A modified refrigerant line permitted engineers to simulate a puncture that allowed R-1234yf to be sprayed onto the turbo/exhaust. The R-1234yf, reportedly mixed with some oil, produced a refrigerant flame. Daimler called the test a b^\real worldb^] scenario, and cited formation during the flame of hydrogen fluoride (HF), which etched the windshield milky white. HF, a toxic, corrosive gas that can result from decomposition of fluorine-content gas, was evaluated in the CRP studies, and potential exposure was considered similar to or below other fire-related exposures more frequently encountered. Further, Honeywell noted, HF is malodorous and so people would avoid a major exposure. Virtually all underhood fluids, the company added, are measurably more flammable. R-12, the nonflammable refrigerant replaced by R-134a to protect the ozone layer, would produce poisonous phosgene gas if exposed to flame. DuPont and Honeywell said tests similar to the Daimler one were done in risk assessments performed by laboratories working for SAE CRPs. Honeywell additionally has shown tests it performed at 600B0C (1112B0F), which it said was the highest it encountered in an engine compartment, and the refrigerant did not burn. The CRP assessments concluded the refrigerant was safe, in the same risk category as riding in an elevator. Need for safe routing of refrigerant lines was covered in ISO 13043 (International Standards Organization), and SAE documents have an overarching reference to b^\best practices.b^] The SAE J standards covering service equipment set specific design and test requirements to cover refrigerant flammability issues. john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11667 http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-658892-1-1536147-1-0-0-0-0-0-11700-0 - -0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons-h umans-melts-glass/ # > someone made a comment about WMD: # > There was a Dr Who episode like this... # > The Sontarans... Episodes 4 and 5 Season 4 - 2009. A "green" technical solution provided for free that eliminated all # > pollution... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education" Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 06:44:40 -0500 From: Christopher Wilson Subject: Re: xj: refrigerants Not to get into the whole dupont thing, but the old R-12 made its way into the upper atmosphere just like all the other heavier-than-air things do. By the wind. Dust is far heavier than air and it's up there... On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 2:21 AM, john wrote: > interesting issue, thanx for those sharing additional links and info... > > the toxicity of the newer refrigerants is disturbing, as is their reduced > efficiency... I still contend > that there is insufficient scientific data to support the theory of r-12, > an > inert, stable and heavier > than air gas, from being able to get into the stratosphere to affect the > ozone > in a hemisphere on the > other side of the most heavily industrialized part of the planet. It's > illogical and inconclusive. > > R134 is some nasty stuff... this new product looks to be even worse... > are we > really applying good > scientific methodology or rolling with emotions? I'm sorry, but I work > with > facts and data when > it comes to most things. Ultimately there is a question of faith at some > point in the process. I > understand about faith and will freely admit what I accept by faith. But > science is not one of them. > > Mysteries of science lead to discoveries and knowledge... but there is NO > mystery in my mind that > freon is getting into the stratosphere... this was political junk science. > I recommend checking out Ben Stein's "expelled", there's something there > worth > thinking about... > > but I stand by the information I have on this subject. Banning R-12 and > other > refrigerants like > it was not based on scientific, statistically valid data. > > Consider some basic facts and see if it makes sense: > the total volume of the atmosphere. > the total amount of freon ever produced. > > Is there a statistically significant amount of freon that possibly be > distributed on the other side > of the world and some how elevated to the stratoshpere to affect the ozone > layer... something that we > do not fully comprehend in its cyclic activity... and are also learning > that > there is some evidence of > holes prior to the industrial revoluton... > > consider also the chemical content of a volcano... and how much it produces > compared to freon... the > problem may very well NOT be a manmade problem, and likely is NOT... it's > illogical and inconclusive. > > Believing that something is when there is little evidence to support that > belief is not faith... that's > make-believe... or wishful thinking... > > In the years since freon has been targeted I've asked physcists, chemists, > engineers, refrigeration specialists > and anyone who has a thought about it... no one has presented a plausible > explanation as to how that inert, > heavier than air gas does it's evil up there... sadly, it's only the > conspiracy types with the Dupont patent > expiring that make any cents... excuse me, sense.... > > So now... we're facing yet another toxic C'hemical under the hood, and one > that may very well catch on > fire when mixed with oil... hmmm... like the compressor pump oil perhaps? > Not > good... ok, I'm off my > soap box... if you have facts and data to prove my point wrong, feel > free... > hope I didn't offend anyone... just trying to understand the logic and > science > of this mess... > > I enjoy a good working a/c in my vehicle... :) > > > earlier links: > > > http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-658892-1-1536147-1-0-0-0-0-0-11700-0 > -0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html > > http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons > -humans-melts-glass/ > > > http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11667 - quote below > > Limited test data is public > > Only limited data has been released publicly on the Daimler test. It > reportedly simulated a head-on collision, following a drive cycle in a > small > car, that got turbocharger and exhaust surfaces very hot. At some point the > radiator fan had been turned off, simulating a fan failure and further > raising > of turbo/exhaust temperatures. A modified refrigerant line permitted > engineers > to simulate a puncture that allowed R-1234yf to be sprayed onto the > turbo/exhaust. The R-1234yf, reportedly mixed with some oil, produced a > refrigerant flame. > > Daimler called the test a b real worldb scenario, and cited formation > during the flame of hydrogen fluoride (HF), which etched the windshield > milky > white. HF, a toxic, corrosive gas that can result from decomposition of > fluorine-content gas, was evaluated in the CRP studies, and potential > exposure > was considered similar to or below other fire-related exposures more > frequently encountered. Further, Honeywell noted, HF is malodorous and so > people would avoid a major exposure. Virtually all underhood fluids, the > company added, are measurably more flammable. R-12, the nonflammable > refrigerant replaced by R-134a to protect the ozone layer, would produce > poisonous phosgene gas if exposed to flame. > > DuPont and Honeywell said tests similar to the Daimler one were done in > risk > assessments performed by laboratories working for SAE CRPs. Honeywell > additionally has shown tests it performed at 600B0C (1112B0F), which it > said > was the highest it encountered in an engine compartment, and the > refrigerant > did not burn. > > The CRP assessments concluded the refrigerant was safe, in the same risk > category as riding in an elevator. Need for safe routing of refrigerant > lines > was covered in ISO 13043 (International Standards Organization), and SAE > documents have an overarching reference to b best practices.b The SAE J > standards covering service equipment set specific design and test > requirements > to cover refrigerant flammability issues. > > john > ----- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation > http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they > mold > ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college > education" > Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11667 > > http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-658892-1-1536147-1-0-0-0-0-0-11700-0 > -0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html > > http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/01/green-ac-coolant-causes-fires-poisons-h > umans-melts-glass/ > # > someone made a comment about WMD: > # > There was a Dr Who episode like this... > # > The Sontarans... Episodes 4 and 5 Season 4 - 2009. A "green" > technical > solution provided for free that eliminated all > # > pollution... > > > > ----- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation > http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they > mold > ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college > education" > Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -o|||||o- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation > http://WAGONEERS.COM Snohomish, WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they > mold > ...shop AMSOIL directly at: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college > education" > Theodore Roosevelt (26th President (1901-09), 1858-1919) - Trust Jesus > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #3455 *************************