From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Oct 4 13:10:18 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, October 4 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1053 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: A-12 WRECK UPDATE - NEED CONFIRMATION ON WHO IS GOING fsj: TR-6/Long Motor fsj: [Fwd: One Good Mechanic's Advice...] fsj: Magnet down pipe fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Magnet down pipe fsj: RE: Tailgate parts on eBay fsj: BACKROAD DRIVERS NORTHWEST Snoqualmie Pass Roads fsj: [Fwd: FSJ suppliers] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:21:38 EDT From: RMSquaredJeeps-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: A-12 WRECK UPDATE - NEED CONFIRMATION ON WHO IS GOING Hi Gang, Back from the Paris Auto Show, saw the Jeep Varsity on display in the DaimlerChrysler booth there - Chrysler/Jeep was next to the Mercedes booth where the big news was the introduction of the C-Class hatchback. Saw lots of XJ Cherokees while in France, quite possibly the most popular American-made vehicle on the continent. Also visited the Jeep House museum in Toledo on the way out. This is an appointment-only facility on the grounds of the old Toledo assembly plant. Managed to get them to scan a shot, circa 1967, of Danny Thomas with his Super Wagoneer along with a faded color shot of the 1971 Special Edition Wagoneer, the last to use the Buick V8 although this 15,000 mile 1971 currently available on eBay seems to fly in the face of all the printed documentation on Buick-powered FSJs. As soon as I have the chance, I'll post both photos up on the web for all to view. OK, now on to more important matters. I need to get a firm count on who is going on the Nevada A-12 wreck expedition next weekend and where they are driving from. I know some folks have said that they will be driving up from SoCal, others from down from Colorado. I'd like to pull together a caravan of those leaving along the route from Los Angeles if I can although I'm not sure if I'll be leaving early or late on Friday - I may have a GPS navigation test to run on Friday - I'm trying to postpone it until at least Wednesday the 18th. In any event, my plan is to overnight in Las Vegas since I may be driving up as late as 7:00 PM from Orange County and head up to the site early on Saturday morning on the 14th. There are lots of places in the $40/night range in Las Vegas and I'll post up one as a meeting point as soon as I have a confirmed number on just how many people are going. Depending upon the degree of success of our search on Saturday, possibilities for overnighting on Saturday still include camping somewhere near the Cherokee Mine, staying at a hotel in Caliente just to the north of the site or even returning to Las Vegas. Again, once I have a fix on who is going and what their preferences are (I'm not a camper type per se) I'll have a better idea on what plans to make in this regard but it is 88 miles from Carp back to Las Vegas, 42 miles from Carp to Caliente, probably the closest location with overnight accommodations. For local information on the web on both Carp and Elgin, visit: http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nv/elgin.html http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nv/carp.html Looks like some good photo opportunities in both locations. A list of hotels in Caliente can be found at: http://www.pe.net/~rksnow/nvcountycalientebus.htm According to Tom Mahood's text, the recovery team booked all the rooms in Caliente when they cleaned the site back in 1967. If you are now sure you are going, E-mail me directly at rmsquaredjeeps-at-aol.com - give me your name, where you're driving from and the type of vehicle you'll be driving. I'm not sure if I'll be driving my 1969 Super Wagoneer, a new Jeep product or a fully outfitted 2000 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab 4X4, one of last year's SEMA show vehicles. I really want to keep this all Jeep so I hope to score a new Jeep if one is available in the LA press fleet. I hope to run up to Pasadena today to pick up my topographical maps. Has anyone else gotten any of the area yet? Has anyone else secured any of the other documentation, like the pilot's death certificate? After reading the web site, and looking over the maps, can anyone make an educated guess as to where they think the write site is located? My educated guess, after reading Tom Mahood's web pages (http://www.serve.com/mahood/a-12/a-12s.htm) is that it is somewhere to the east of the Carp-Elgin road since that's where the government set up the roadblocks back in 1967. We also know that Ray's impact point is referenced to a mining claim in the Viola district somewhere near the Cherokee Mine claim. That's my educated guess as to where we should start the search - hopefully the added details of the topo maps will allow me/us to get a more precise starting point since Tom Mahood says you can't locate the wreckage field until you're actually standing in it. (Personally I find it a bit hard to believe that there is no evidence remaining of the road the CIA must to have cut when they trucked out most of the remains back in 1967.) That's all I can think of for now. Let me know if you're sure you're going. If you're sitting on the fence, let me know as well. Remember, one stipulation of going on this trip is that if we locate the site, you will agree not to publicly publish the exact location of the site, meaning no GPS coordinates in print. I'll do my write up in the same style of Tom's web pages, some clues and photos but no exact location. This is to preserve the site for others to find in the future, if we are successful in locating the location. I look forward to hearing back from those going, especially if you've done some detective work on your own over the last few weeks and have a better idea on where we should zero-in our search. FYI - if you'd like to read a detailed story on the subject of our quest, I suggest you point your browser to: http://www.wvi.com/~lelandh/sroxca~1.htm This is an unclassified account of the A-12 program. If you're into aviation like I am, it is great reat reading - otherwise it can get a bit boring. Ray's crash is mentioned in passing, about two-thirds of the way in the text and I've quoted it below. (S) Shortly after this exploit, tragedy befell the program. During a routine training flight on 5 January 1967, the fourth aircraft was lost, together with its pilot. The accident occurred during descent about 70 miles from the base. A fuel guage failed to function properly, and the aircraft ran out of fuel only minutes before landing. The pilot, Walter Ray, ejected but was killed when he failed to separate from the ejection seat before impact. The aircraft was totally destroyed. Its wreckage was found on 6 January and Ray's body recovered a day later. Through Air Force channels a story was released to the effect that an Air Force SR-71, on a routine test flight out of Edwards Air Force Base, was missing and presumed down in Nevada. The pilot was identified as a civilian test pilot, and the newspapers connected him with Lockheed. Flight activity at the base was again suspended during investigation of the causes both for the crash and for the failure of the seat separation device. (S) It is worth observing that none of the four accidents occurred in the high- Mach-number, high-temperature regime of flight. All involved traditional problems inherent in any aircraft. In fact, the OXCART was by this time performing at high speeds, with excellent reliability. Best wishes, Richard Truesdell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:32:53 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: TR-6/Long Motor Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:07:45 -0700 From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" Subject: fsj: Hemmings Motor News - Long Motor been buying parts from Long Motor for my TR-6 for years, they do a nice job ============================= This guy knows what he's talking about, if he's got a TR-6, he buys lots of parts. - - Landon ps: I think 'GW' won the debates last night. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:04:58 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: [Fwd: One Good Mechanic's Advice...] Here is what my Friend and the guy who knows more about this then me .. and is helping me with the engine as well had to say, to the letter I wrote yesterday.. I also was trying to explain the history of Jeep, Who bought who , what and so forth.. but I am not sure if it came out right, and just confused myself.. Grin.. Tell me what you guys think.. okay? Thanks! R.J. Received: from mail7.bellsouth.net (mail7.bellsouth.net [205.152.144.4]) by mail0.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id EAA06463 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 04:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spdmgaad.compuserve.com (ds-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.206.137]) by mail7.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id FAA04198 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate-at-localhost) by spdmgaad.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id EAA21751 for poolcues-at-bellsouth.net; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 04:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 04:58:17 -0400 From: KevinO Subject: One Good Mechanic's Advice... Sender: KevinO To: "R.J. Baynum" Message-ID: <200010040458_MC2-B59E-EA8C-at-compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hey RJ, Spent the last few hours poking around the web. Now you know what I do all night. >> It's called Groom's Engine's ( 1-800-950-7711) They have a 360, ( at least they have a core to build from) they can get the engine together in two days.. and it will cost $1,683. << For one thing, if they have one sitting in the back of the shop that they're willing to put together, it's *going* to cost you more since it would be a labor intensive job. And you _always_ pay for labor. Besides which, you really want one put together on an assembly line in a big rebuilding plant so you're pretty much gauranteed that all the parts are within spec. Just the fact that a place has a good warranty (see below) means that they'll do all in their power to see that this block doesn't show up on their doorstep someday and cost them more money for a warranty repair. For another thing, that's just too much to pay. Most likely. Is that before or after the core? Is that with shipping included? (Or are they local?) For a price like that, they *have* to be talking about a complete long block. Do they get on hands and knees and kiss your ass for giving them so much money? Like I said before, a long block is an extra cost you don't need. They take a set of old heads, just like yours, and rebuild them. Just like you would. Well, like you'd have a machine shop do. And you _always_ have the shop pressure-test the heads, magnaflux them to find possible cracks, ect.... Plus which, they'll tell you if valves, valve seats and such need replaced. You only need to get a -short- block, rather than letting them sell you the labor cost on a refurbished set of heads. Go to.... http://www.actionsalvage.com/rebuiltmotors.asp Under the Jeep section they advertise a short block for $950 and a long block for $1350 (core of $150). And they wouldn't give a warranty like that if they couldn't back it up. Besides, I may hear of a better price somewhere else in the next couple days. I've been putting out 'requests' for for price quotes, so should have more info later. We'll see who says what. What was that engine number again? Didn't see it in this 'mail anywhere... All this reminds me of something I was thinking of earlier. If that 360 *was* rebuilt recently, then it's likely that all the crank journals, cam lobes, ect. are still well within spec. We might be better off to check the price on a rack of new pistons (.010 to .020 oversize, most likely) and the cost of having the cylinders rehoned at a decent shop here in town. And if not here, I know of *the* best auto machine shop up by Nashville. Mike's Speed Shop. They did some specialty work for Dad and me. Anyway, assume for now that all the rest of the motor (bottom end) is still okay and look up what it would cost to buy eight .020 over pistons. Then find an auto machine shop and find what it would cost to hone the block. (Call the NAPA shop, they're not the cheapest but it would be good to gather numbers.) Add to that $200 for gasket kits and miscellaneous parts and see how much lower that is than a grand. If it goes over a grand....well....that's why they invented the short block. BUT, there's a good chance you and I could do it *all* for $700 or less. Stranger things have happened. (The skill, knowledge and experience are certainly not in question here...........) And check out this site, when you have some free time...... http://www.mederle.de/amc/amcgeng.html ....I found some fascinating history on the AMC corp. Was thinking of our conversation regarding AMC/Jeep et. al. when I was reading it. It's worth reading it all, but it mentions AMC buying 'Kaiser Jeep' in 1970 about halfway down the page under the picture of the Gremlin. Good history on the development of Jeep products from '70 on, too. Many things to learn. Perhaps the most interesting is that AM General (which builds the Hummer) was originally an offshoot of AMC. And all this time I thought that it had been a part of GM from the start. Go figger. (BTW, look for the Renault collaboration around '79. Remember the 'LeCar'? ) Anyway, do some homework and get back to me when you know more. Or whenever. Someday soon I want to make it over to your place and stick my new magnet down that pipe. KO Message text written by "R.J. Baynum" > Well I talked to the Guy that works on my Wife's Volvo, who is a really great guy, .. He gave me a name... something K. Wise.. ( anyway ) Mr. Wise, at Constant Velocity here in town ( who also was a kick to talk to, and I could tell he really knew his stuff) He gave me the number to the place where they get their engines from, and gets deliveries from them too.. It's called Groom's Engine's ( 1-800-950-7711) They have a 360, ( at least they have a core to build from) they can get the engine together in two days.. and it will cost $1,683. I could go through Constant Velocity, and drop off my old block there. and me and a good friend can put it in.. What do you guys think? You do get a 18 month/unlimited miles warranty and for a 100 bucks more .. you can get a lifetime parts only warranty, for as long as you own it. Mr. Wise said they have tried a lot of venders, and this is the only one they have never had a problem with, no leaks .. nothing.. Should I spend the extra money? Michael wrote: > Long Motor Corporation. I knew it was something simple, but had to search for it to find it! > > http://www.longmotor.com/ > > Their link WAS lmctrucks.com but it sends you to the one above now! > > They offer up Ford and Chevy catalogs, and some other car related ones too. I couldn't find an "email" link on their pages, so didn't write them. They do have a few phone numbers there though......anybody wanna call 'em and ask about putting a FSJ line together??? It would be cool if they could offer up a Willy's Pickup/Wagon catalog AND a FSJ cat too.....hey, we're "classics" by this point, so they SHOULD consider it. > > However....I notice the distinct lack of Dodge, and being Jeep is under Chryco rule now......maybe they don't like LMC helping people keep their old vehicles running!!?!?!? Oh well.....check out the LMC cats if you can......you'd drool to see such availability of Jeep stuff, so those older GM and Ford trucks have got a good friend in LMC! > > Take care..... > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:15:05 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: Magnet down pipe >From my last letter.. If you are wonder what he means by magnet down the pipe .. is because as he was taking the Exhaust manifold off.. he accidentally dropped the adapter and socket down the Exhaust pipe.. I hope it does not hurt anything and can get it out.. Sigh.. R.J. ~*~****~*~*~**~*~***~***~*~**~ And check out this site, when you have some free time...... http://www.mederle.de/amc/amcgeng.html ....I found some fascinating history on the AMC corp. Was thinking of our conversation regarding AMC/Jeep et. al. when I was reading it. It's worth reading it all, but it mentions AMC buying 'Kaiser Jeep' in 1970 about halfway down the page under the picture of the Gremlin. Good history on the development of Jeep products from '70 on, too. Many things to learn. Perhaps the most interesting is that AM General (which builds the Hummer) was originally an offshoot of AMC. And all this time I thought that it had been a part of GM from the start. Go figger. (BTW, look for the Renault collaboration around '79. Remember the 'LeCar'? ) Anyway, do some homework and get back to me when you know more. Or whenever. Someday soon I want to make it over to your place and stick my new magnet down that pipe. KO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:16:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Magnet down pipe A: In the past, I have had to fish many sockets out of exhaust pipes and whatever with magnets and coathangers. I use a speaker magnet on the outside and can often drag the socket up that way, to where I can hook it with a hanger. That website also has a lot of history on what would have been the Euro Pacer and other AMC developments overseas. The Renaut Le Curse was a done deal before joining up with AMC, like the XJ was done on this side. (I used to change trannies in them in 2.5 hours and the book called for 8) AMG is American Motors General, which was the military and postoffice equipment manufacturers. (Speaking of Hummers, I found some that may be going on sale at the local mil disposal yard, but they are GM diesels and the bodies are thrashed. It'll probably take 3 to make 1 good one) RJ wrote: >From my last letter.. If you are wonder what he means by magnet down the pipe .. is because as he was taking the Exhaust manifold off.. he accidentally dropped the adapter and socket down the Exhaust pipe.. I hope it does not hurt anything and can get it out.. Sigh.. R.J. ~*~****~*~*~**~*~***~***~*~**~ And check out this site, when you have some free time...... http://www.mederle.de/amc/amcgeng.html ....I found some fascinating history on the AMC corp. Was thinking of our conversation regarding AMC/Jeep et. al. when I was reading it. It's worth reading it all, but it mentions AMC buying 'Kaiser Jeep' in 1970 about halfway down the page under the picture of the Gremlin. Good history on the development of Jeep products from '70 on, too. Many things to learn. Perhaps the most interesting is that AM General (which builds the Hummer) was originally an offshoot of AMC. And all this time I thought that it had been a part of GM from the start. Go figger. (BTW, look for the Renault collaboration around '79. Remember the 'LeCar'? )         Anyway, do some homework and get back to me when you know more. Or whenever. Someday soon I want to make it over to your place and stick my new magnet down that pipe. KO ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 10:11:24 -0700 From: Clark Novak Subject: fsj: RE: Tailgate parts on eBay AFAIK, they didn't change at all in 30 years :) The one that I wrestled out of a 78 Chero last week was the same as in my 87 GW... the picture is pretty good;if in doubt, pop the inspection cover on your tailgate and see if it looks right. The only possible sticking point could be the motor mount, but I think they used Delco motors the entire length of production. Clark Novak 87 GW > Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:48:36 -0700 > From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" > Subject: fsj: RE: Tailgate parts on eBay > > have they changed much over the years, will it fit a 69? > > > Anyone need a tailgate window regulator? > > > > Item #: 455927961 > > Item: Grand Wagoneer Tailgate Window Regulator > > Price: US $25.00 > > Bids: 0 > > Started: 10/01 18:49 > > URL: http://grass.ebay.com/go/101/12507651/1/455927961 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: BACKROAD DRIVERS NORTHWEST Snoqualmie Pass Roads A: Another one I can't go on! :^( soggymountain-at-earthlink.net (Horn) Subject: BACKROAD DRIVERS NORTHWEST Snoqualmie Pass Roads and this Weekend's trip to BC Snoqualmie Pass Forest Roads I was heading home from Eastern Washington last weekend, running a little ahead of schedule, so I decided to take some time exploring the Snoqualmie Pass area. I have looked at logging roads switch-backing up the mountainsides for years as I drove by on the freeway and I have thought to myself that someday I would check them out. So why not today? I started with an out-of-date Forest Service map, taking several wrong roads in the process. I drove to the headwaters of Keechelus Lake, the one next to the freeway with all the stumps revealed at low water. The road goes right onto the lake bottom where 4x4's and motorcycles are encouraged to play. I finally asked a motorcycle rider how to find the road to Twin Lakes. With his somewhat limited help I eventually found it in the Hyak residential area, just past the sewage lagoon! I soon discovered that another branch runs across the mountain from upper Hyak, past some cabins to the first chair-lift stanchions and through the woods to eventually tie in with the Twin Lakes Road. It is kind of neat driving across the ski area. The main road, FR9070, was gravel and in excellent condition. As a matter of fact, I passed a sports car heading up the hill on my way back. There are several spur roads heading off to the side, some gated off, others only a mile or so long. One follows the lake down to the far end where it connects with the Stampede Pass road, a good drive for another day. The main road winds around behind the mountain and is mostly out of site of civilization. I drove to the top of the mountain, the Cascade Crest and the end of the main road at a place called Olallie Meadows. There were several logging roads heading down the other side that did not show on my map, so naturally I had to take them. They are old spur roads and you will need more than a sports car as they have not been maintained for years. And make sure you have good tires for the heavy crushed rock roadbed. The fall colors were beautiful, especially at Olallie Meadows. Since I had spent so much time trying to find the road, I was starting to run behind schedule and forced myself to leave. But I will be back to drive other intriguing mountain roads in this area. Jerry Horn PS Evelyn and I are going to Ed Pedersen's Fraser Valley Tour this weekend and we hope you can make it, too! To Post a message, send it to:   backroaddrivers-at-eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: backroaddrivers-unsubscribe-at-eGroups.com ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 14:59:47 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: [Fwd: FSJ suppliers] This is the response I got back from Hemmings.. Has some sites in it.. R.J.. Received: from mail4.bellsouth.net (mail4.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.4]) by mail2.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id LAA06137 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hmn_mail.hmn.net ([64.30.0.163]) by mail4.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id LAA08561 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by hmn_mail.hmn.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:36:48 -0400 Message-ID: <799E91491565D3118CED00104B8BA960369750-at-hmn_mail.hmn.net> From: "James O'Clair" To: "'poolcues-at-bellsouth.net'" Subject: FSJ suppliers Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:36:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 You can find some resources on line at www.home.off-road.com/~ifsja/sources/index.htm. You can also contact Arizona 4x4 at 1-602-276-9606 or on line at www.az4x4.com for used items. Also www.willysamerica.com or www.totalparts.com. Lastly Autokrafters in VA. is a Ford and Jeep parts supplier but we don't know how strong they are on the non-CJ models. You can check them out at www.autokrafters.com or call at 1-540-896-5910. Thank you for your interest in Hemmings Motor News, JIM O'CLAIR- Parts Locator Hemmings Motor News PO Box 4317 222 Main Street Bennington, VT. 05201 Phone # 1-800-227-4373 Ext.669 Fax# 1-802-447-9678 E-Fax# 1-425-962-8422 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1053 **************************