From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Oct 19 19:52:28 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, October 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1073 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Gas Leak fsj: Plugged fuel line? Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] Re: [fsj: Wag inspected] Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? fsj: Re: engine cleaners Re: fsj: RE: fsj: Re: SFBay Mechanic? Re: fsj: RE: fsj: English lessons fsj: Re: English lessons fsj: Re: English lessons Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? RE: fsj: Plugged fuel line? fsj: and another thing... fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:14:49 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Gas Leak Tom, check the large vacuum lines that run from behind the engine where they attach to a hard line, to the carbon cannister by the battery. Mine were rubbing on the exhaust tubing and were venting to atmosphere. Now I can smell the mildew - much better, wife noticed it immediately. Hey, I closed the sunroof, so what if I left the window open and it rained ? The carpet is like a sponge. Also, if adventurous, there is a soft line in the rear that could be leaking, you can get to it from underneath to inspect, but I believe you have to remove an inspection cover that is riveted, under the rear driver's side seat, to replace. - - Landon '89 GW Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:05:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Tom & Lisa King Subject: fsj: Gas leak??? Hello, I am new to the list but have a question. I have a 1986 Grand Wagoneer on which the gas tank plate is very (VERY) rusted. I have a replacement coming from California. But here is my question. I filled my gas tank up the other day and now I can smell gas outside the truck. One day it was only by the drivers door and last night only at the rear. I can see no leak!!!! Any ideas? Thanx Tom in Orlando ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:47:41 -0700 From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" Subject: fsj: Plugged fuel line? Listers! 69 Wag running rough - feels like its being starved for fuel. So I got under the truck and looked at the plastic see-thru fuel filter. With the wag running it is dribbling fuel into the filter such that the filter is at most 1/8th full of gas, this just doesn't look right. Seems logical to assume that at a minimum the filter should be at least 1/2 full. In looking at the service manaul it shows the line coming out of the tank, but does not show if there is some sort of mesh filter at the other end or if it is just pulling from a line that is open at the bottom of the tank. Before I run abunch of compressed air from the filter back into the tank to make sure it is open, i wanted to see if anybody knows whats at the beginning of the line (filter, nozzle,?) when gas is initially pulled from the tank towards the aftermarket cheap fuel filter? Need to know what I'm about to potentially trash... BTW, I installed an electric fuel pump in a horizontal orientation, I guess I need to test that also - I'm open to ideas how. Current thought is to disconnect input fuel line, plug with finger, turn on ignition and see if it pulls. - - Check gas level (guage inop, new one on workbench) - - blow line(s) out - - test fuel pump - - recheck lines - - ? Mike ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 00 16:38:12 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] Check: fuel filler hoses, all fuel lines and vent lines between tank and motor or emissions canister. Also check your gas cap, maybe just replace it for grins. It's a major PITA to change out the fuel/vent lines but probably worth it. Many of us suspect the tank vent lines that run behind the motor on pass side are a source of FSJ engine fires. I recently saw an otherwise ok 87 in the junkyard with a fire localized to this area. I've got FSJ BBQ on the brain cuz I narrowly escaped a major in-cabin, under-the-carpet electrical fire in my truck without even knowing it until last nite when I discovered 3 wires melted in half and a 2" burn crater in the carpet insulation! Scary!! Michael Tom & Lisa King wrote: > Hello, > > I am new to the list but have a question. I have a 1986 Grand Wagoneer on which the gas tank plate is very (VERY) rusted. I have a replacement coming from California. But here is my question. I filled my gas tank up the other day and now I can smell gas outside the truck. One day it was only by the drivers door and last night only at the rear. I can see no leak!!!! > > Any ideas? > > Thanx Tom in Orlando - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 00 16:54:27 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Wag inspected] "Landon Tesar" wrote: > Went out to the parking lot and looked at someone's brand-new Cherokee. > How small, mundane, packaged, and feminine it seems....4wd and I-6 > notwithstanding.... Probably not unlike how my 85 and 86 luxo-grandpa-cruisers appeared when new with their foo-foo woodgrain & power everything. :) In 10 years those pesky baby trucks are going to be prime pickin' for building beater trail rigs... Michael - --- 86 GW "Troubled Child" 360/NP208/3"exh/4"lift/31"BFGAT 85 GW "Backhoe" 360/3"exh/2"lift/31"BFGATKO/Powertrax ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:08:39 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? Hi Mr. D'Ambrogia, Yes, Jim Blair has mentioned about a "filter sock" at the end (beginning) of the feed tube, in the tank. He felt like his disintegrated as a result of MTBE additive in fuel and caused him a fuel starvation or clogged up the other filter with it's remains or something similar.... Not that I need to answer for him, but I don't see any Jim posts last few days... JeepNut Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: > Listers! > > 69 Wag running rough - feels like its being starved for fuel. So I got > under the truck and looked at the plastic see-thru fuel filter. With the > wag running it is dribbling fuel into the filter such that the filter is at > most 1/8th full of gas, this just doesn't look right. Seems logical to > assume that at a minimum the filter should be at least 1/2 full. > > In looking at the service manaul it shows the line coming out of the tank, > but does not show if there is some sort of mesh filter at the other end or > if it is just pulling from a line that is open at the bottom of the tank. > Before I run abunch of compressed air from the filter back into the tank to > make sure it is open, i wanted to see if anybody knows whats at the > beginning of the line (filter, nozzle,?) when gas is initially pulled from > the tank towards the aftermarket cheap fuel filter? Need to know what I'm > about to potentially trash... > > BTW, I installed an electric fuel pump in a horizontal orientation, I guess > I need to test that also - I'm open to ideas how. Current thought is to > disconnect input fuel line, plug with finger, turn on ignition and see if it > pulls. > > - Check gas level (guage inop, new one on workbench) > - blow line(s) out > - test fuel pump > - recheck lines > - ? > > Mike - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 01:13:51 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: engine cleaners >>>>Vince says: I switched my van over to Mobil 1 synthetic and use any >>>>synthetic oil again. It just seems to wipe out older gaskets. ....... I did good with Mobil 1 (over 16 mos) , because i had replaced the gaskets before switching. But it did burn a little more on the start and go traffic, this is city driving on short trips. On the freeway it was fine... engine has 268,000,yes original but the thrust bearing.... In fact i recently returned to synthetic blend, because it seems to be burning a little more of the $4 a quart, and it does not last more than 4,000 miles before being black.... I know John will tell me to try amsoil... next spring i will. >>>>I'm only now starting to notice some excess oil in the air cleaner. I would replace the PCV valve, this is the usual sign of a plugged or malfunctionning PCV valve... Cheers Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:17:25 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Oh, boy, English lessons, maybe someone here also enjoys an occasional most unique experience? And thanks to Kim re: the transitive verbs. While many of you listers might find the thread useless, those of us who entertain the home schooling concept really enjoy little useful prompts such as that. Salute! JeepNut Mandatory FSJ content, a new White GW has moved into on of our many new neighborhoods... but it looks kinda funny with it's bumper all stickin' out there, with no winch in it's place. Bet he can work on the engine while kneeling though . (and Kim KNOWS I was just ITCHING to say, knealing....) Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: > my favorite is there, their, and they're... > > > Hey, if I misuse to, too, & also, can I get the lecture on that one??? - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 01:00:27 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: SFBay Mechanic? Jim, Welcome to the list. Mechanics are harder to find than dates.... i am in san bruno... but i don't know anyone good.... You'll have to get dirty, as i did. I can recommend some specialty stores... in fact the only one i use was for the transmission service.... Cheers Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:25:44 -0700 From: "Karl-at-Nookit.com" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: That's neat! We just started home schooling our kids this week as well! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JeepNut" To: "Jeep" Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Re: fsj: RE: > Oh, boy, English lessons, maybe someone here also enjoys an occasional most > unique experience? > And thanks to Kim re: the transitive verbs. While many of you listers might > find the thread useless, those of us who entertain the home schooling > concept really enjoy little useful prompts such as that. > Salute! > JeepNut > Mandatory FSJ content, a new White GW has moved into on of our many new > neighborhoods... but it looks kinda funny with it's bumper all stickin' out > there, with no winch in it's place. Bet he can work on the engine while > kneeling though . (and Kim KNOWS I was just ITCHING to say, > knealing....) > > > Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: > > > my favorite is there, their, and they're... > > > > > Hey, if I misuse to, too, & also, can I get the lecture on that one??? > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:27:43 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: English lessons I won't be too apologetic. I really try not to overtly correct other adult person's grammar, but every so often, someone touches a nerve. Perhaps having had a grandmother who not only taught, but spoke and wrote the English language so well has warped me, but one feels that without SOME standards of usage, we are doomed to less and less precision and elegance in communication. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JeepNut" > To: "Jeep" > Sent: 19 October, 2000 19:17 > Subject: Re: fsj: RE: > > > > Oh, boy, English lessons, maybe someone here also enjoys an occasional most > > unique experience? > > And thanks to Kim re: the transitive verbs. While many of you listers might > > find the thread useless, those of us who entertain the home schooling > > concept really enjoy little useful prompts such as that. > > Salute! > > JeepNut > > Mandatory FSJ content, a new White GW has moved into on of our many new > > neighborhoods... but it looks kinda funny with it's bumper all stickin' out > > there, with no winch in it's place. Bet he can work on the engine while > > kneeling though . (and Kim KNOWS I was just ITCHING to say, > > knealing....) > > > > > > Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: > > > > > my favorite is there, their, and they're... > > > > > > > Hey, if I misuse to, too, & also, can I get the lecture on that one??? > > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > > '92 Cherokee > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:31:13 -0700 From: "Karl-at-Nookit.com" Subject: fsj: Re: English lessons hehe You kin write reeeel nice, Kim! Grammar has never really been one of my pet peeves, but I can sure flame about spelling sometimes! ;) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Smith" To: "FSJ List" Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 7:27 PM Subject: fsj: English lessons > I won't be too apologetic. I really try not to overtly correct other adult person's > grammar, but every so often, someone touches a nerve. Perhaps having had a > grandmother who not only taught, but spoke and wrote the English language so well > has warped me, but one feels that without SOME standards of usage, we are doomed to > less and less precision and elegance in communication. > > ************************************************************************* > Kim Smith > 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "JeepNut" > > To: "Jeep" > > Sent: 19 October, 2000 19:17 > > Subject: Re: fsj: RE: > > > > > > > Oh, boy, English lessons, maybe someone here also enjoys an occasional most > > > unique experience? > > > And thanks to Kim re: the transitive verbs. While many of you listers might > > > find the thread useless, those of us who entertain the home schooling > > > concept really enjoy little useful prompts such as that. > > > Salute! > > > JeepNut > > > Mandatory FSJ content, a new White GW has moved into on of our many new > > > neighborhoods... but it looks kinda funny with it's bumper all stickin' out > > > there, with no winch in it's place. Bet he can work on the engine while > > > kneeling though . (and Kim KNOWS I was just ITCHING to say, > > > knealing....) > > > > > > > > > Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: > > > > > > > my favorite is there, their, and they're... > > > > > > > > > Hey, if I misuse to, too, & also, can I get the lecture on that one??? > > > > > > -- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > > > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > > > '92 Cherokee > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:43:56 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: English lessons > Subject: Re: English lessons > hehe > > You kin write reeeel nice, Kim! > > Grammar has never really been one of my pet peeves, but I can sure flame > about spelling sometimes! ;) Don't get me started on spelling! When a newspaper editor writes a headline for a syndicated column: "The Dumming Down of America's Schools" and is NOT being ironic by misspelling "dumbing", the Republic is in peril. My all time favorite appeared in a Montana Department of Commerce tourist brochure Extolling the virtues of winter outdoor recreation, the copy read: "After a strenuous day of snowmobiling or cross-country skiing, have a soak in the hot tub, and then relax and basque in front of an open fire." ************************************************************************* Kim " I before E except after C..." Smith 1980 Wagoneer "J0E", 360,2v,727,219 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:57:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? A: Been a little busy trying to get my wheels back together (shop FINALLY got the converter out of my trans) The fuel inlet on the pump gets jammed up with stuff too, which is why I put a filter BEFORE my pump. Jeep nut wrote: Plugged fuel line? Hi Mr. D'Ambrogia,         Yes, Jim Blair has mentioned about a "filter sock" at the end (beginning) of the feed tube, in the tank. He felt like his disintegrated as a result of MTBE additive in fuel and caused him a fuel starvation or clogged up the other filter with it's remains or something similar....         Not that I need to answer for him, but I don't see any Jim posts last few days...         JeepNut Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: Listers! 69 Wag running rough - feels like its being starved for fuel. So I got under the truck and looked at the plastic see-thru fuel filter. With the wag running it is dribbling fuel into the filter such that the filter is at most 1/8th full of gas, this just doesn't look right. Seems logical to assume that at a minimum the filter should be at least 1/2 full. In looking at the service manaul it shows the line coming out of the tank, but does not show if there is some sort of mesh filter at the other end or if it is just pulling from a line that is open at the bottom of the tank. Before I run abunch of compressed air from the filter back into the tank to make sure it is open, i wanted to see if anybody knows whats at the beginning of the line (filter, nozzle,?) when gas is initially pulled from the tank towards the aftermarket cheap fuel filter? Need to know what I'm about to potentially trash... BTW, I installed an electric fuel pump in a horizontal orientation, I guess I need to test that also - I'm open to ideas how. Current thought is to disconnect input fuel line, plug with finger, turn on ignition and see if it pulls. - - Check gas level (guage inop, new one on workbench) - - blow line(s) out - - test fuel pump - - recheck lines - - ? Mike - -- ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:22:40 -0700 From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" Subject: RE: fsj: Plugged fuel line? Hey Jim, I have had the filter (now cruded up abit with fine red sand like material) in line before the fuel pump, it seems like the restriction is in the mesh as it comes out of the tank. currently the flow of fuel is tank->filter->electric pump->carb, I removed the filter to see if that was the prob, but it remained running the same. running condition is ok to pretty good at idle, but it seems abit lean even with the mixture screws 3 turns out (started at 1.5 turns) above 1.5k rp/m, when i gas it initially it runs up and then starts a pretty big stumble, if i leave it at 2-3k rp/m it will back fire thru the exhaust (not the carb) and continue to run like crap. if i let off it idles pretty close to ok after that. the thing that makes me think fuel issue is the meager amount of fuel going thru the filter, it was pretty much a trickle coming from the tank and the filter was never more that an 1/8 or so full. so, the $64 question is - can i blow compressed air thru the fuel line back into the tank without damaging anything, will that clear the possible mesh block? seems like any mesh you blow off the of the inside will stay in the tank and just float around, potentially being picked up in the filter. comments/thoughts? much appreciated mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:43:21 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: and another thing... Hi all, When you're setting the timing on the 360, everything I've read says you are to disconnect the vacumn line to the distributor vac advance and plug it. Why? I show 0 lbs of vac on that line at idle anyway, so what would be the point? The vacumn responds to the throttle well, so appears that the engine vacumn is good, but please correct me if I am wrong. At idle, the vac advance should not be affecting the timing, should it? JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:43:28 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? Hi group, Now that the Wag seems to have fully recovered from it's narcolepsy I am in the pursuit of ping. To briefly rehash for those fortunate enought not to have to have lived with my nightmare all summer.... The 2150 carb is rebuilt and all vacumn lines replaced while I chased other problems all summer. Fuel pump is <6mo old. Truck has had $1800 worth of parts bestowed upon it over the last year, mostly new electrical stuff recently, ECU, wires, plugs, wiring, etc. 164,000 miles now. Timing chain is original AFAIK. Now, when I transition the throttle for instance making a turn on a country road, throttle up and it shifts to second THEN chatters for several seconds as the speed builds. If I letup on the throttle, the chatter fades. or Going up a slight incline or small hill it chatters under throttle. Sounds like timing right? I have fiddled and farted and adjusted the timing till I am blue in the face, but this truck will NOT run without chatter unless I have Premium fuel in it. I've been using Premium for years in the thing as it has acted like this for quite some time. But it is getting too expensive to put the good stuff in all the time. All I hear is that I'm a moron for using premium fuel. The truck doesn't need hi-test, it was designed to burn regular. blah, blah, blah, I'm telling you right now that I DARE not put regular in that thing or it wouldn't last 50 miles. So what is the deal here? Any ideas? Checked vacumn advance on the distributor and the timing shift smoothly in response to vacumn added manually at the distributor. But the vacumn isn't "held". You can pump it down, but it comes right back to 0. Guessing this is proper operation of the vacumn advance mechanism. Vac at the manifold is 18 at idle, up to 22 at 1500-2000. Vacumn responds to throttle nicely. or seems to, to me. Now watching vacumn TO the distributor vacumn advance, from the CTO valve, it responds also to the throttle on a warm engine. I think that is good. Idling up to 1500 RPM, goes from 0-8 lbs. Idling up to 2000-2500 RPM it goes up from 8 -15 and holds there with the throttle. So I finally had a new idea... MAYBE I am setting the timing wrong. Now for me to put a timing light on the mark, I have to hold the light up against the upper left side of the radiator tank and aim down in between the brackets from there. This DOES cause an angular displacement of the mark against the marker. So the questions are... Do you set the timing according to the mechanics angle of view? or Do you try to correct for this displacement by setting the timing a little retarded compared to what you "see" so that if viewed straight on, it would be right? If the latter, I have probably have had the timing set 3-5 degrees too hot. So I finally set the timing so that it looks like about 7degrees viewed from "the mechanics angle" and assume that is running it at about 10 if viewed from an unobstructed front-on view. So 10 is a little retarded, it should run kinda doggy and does, but it shouldn't chatter with the timing slightly retarded, (or am I out to lunch on this), and it STILL pings... Say your running about 45-50, on a paved county road, come up on a significant 90degree turn, slow to about 30, keep on the throttle through the curve, accelerating now and chatter chatter, (just lighter now than before and less duration) as you go through 35-40+ and then just as you start to even off the throttle she quiets down.... Why does this thing "ping" nearly all the time with anything less that ETHYL? [now that'll tell my age ;-) ] JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1073 **************************