From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Oct 20 09:21:14 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, October 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1074 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: while we're on the topic... Re: fsj: and another thing... Re: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? fsj: stalling FSJ fsj: Re: stalling FSJ RE: fsj: Plugged fuel line? Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] fsj: Fw: Re: English lessons Re: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:14:31 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: while we're on the topic... it really gets my goat when someone says: "CAN I help you?" I don't know CAN you? It's MAY I... argghhh... Now, I'm gonna go lay, lie or linger... under my J10... ;) not... I'm gonna go inside and veg out... it's been a long day... Anybody use PTC's pro/engineer products? I'd like to rant about their 2000 i squared version... but I need someone that will understand my rant about ACE versions of HP-UX 10.20... oh, never mind... ;) Hey, is the Red Green show on tonight??? It's on PBS at 10pm here... It's a kick if you've never seen it... The guy is a pro with duct tape... ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:45:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: and another thing... A: If you ask me, it's so people will actually check to see if the line has zero vac or manifold vac. (my only reason for pulling it off. Plus I check the vac to see if it still works) Mail message Help Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net (JeepNut) Date: Thu, Oct 19, 2000, 10:43pm (PDT+2) To: fsj-at-digest.net (_FSJ List) Subject: fsj: and another thing... Hi all,         When you're setting the timing on the 360, everything I've read says you are to disconnect the vacumn line to the distributor vac advance and plug it.         Why?         I show 0 lbs of vac on that line at idle anyway, so what would be the point?         The vacumn responds to the throttle well, so appears that the engine vacumn is good, but please correct me if I am wrong.         At idle, the vac advance should not be affecting the timing, should it?       JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer         ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------- ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:52:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? A: I suggest you change your spark plugs one set colder. It can make all the difference in the world!. Your vac adv shouldn't be draining down either. I wonder if it is getting too much mechanical advance from weak springs (or 1 missing one) If the heads were shaved, the higher compression makes it harder to stop ping as well. Mail message Help Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net (JeepNut) Date: Thu, Oct 19, 2000, 10:43pm (PDT+2) To: fsj-at-digest.net (_FSJ List) Subject: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? Hi group,         Now that the Wag seems to have fully recovered from it's narcolepsy I am in the pursuit of ping. To briefly rehash for those fortunate enought not to have to have lived with my nightmare all summer....         The 2150 carb is rebuilt and all vacumn lines replaced while I chased other problems all summer. Fuel pump is <6mo old. Truck has had $1800 worth of parts bestowed upon it over the last year, mostly new electrical stuff recently, ECU, wires, plugs, wiring, etc. 164,000 miles now. Timing chain is original AFAIK.         Now, when I transition the throttle for instance making a turn on a country road, throttle up and it shifts to second THEN chatters for several seconds as the speed builds. If I letup on the throttle, the chatter fades. or         Going up a slight incline or small hill it chatters under throttle.   Sounds like timing right?         I have fiddled and farted and adjusted the timing till I am blue in the face, but this truck will NOT run without chatter unless I have Premium fuel in it. I've been using Premium for years in the thing as it has acted like this for quite some time. But it is getting too expensive to put the good stuff in all the time.         All I hear is that I'm a moron for using premium fuel. The truck doesn't need hi-test, it was designed to burn regular. blah, blah, blah, I'm telling you right now that I DARE not put regular in that thing or it wouldn't last 50 miles.         So what is the deal here? Any ideas?         Checked vacumn advance on the distributor and the timing shift smoothly in response to vacumn added manually at the distributor. But the vacumn isn't "held". You can pump it down, but it comes right back to 0.         Guessing this is proper operation of the vacumn advance mechanism.   Vac at the manifold is 18 at idle, up to 22 at 1500-2000.   Vacumn responds to throttle nicely. or seems to, to me.   Now watching vacumn TO the distributor vacumn advance, from the CTO valve, it responds also to the throttle on a warm engine. I think that is good.   Idling up to 1500 RPM, goes from 0-8 lbs.   Idling up to 2000-2500 RPM it goes up from 8 -15 and holds there with the throttle.         So I finally had a new idea... MAYBE I am setting the timing wrong.   Now for me to put a timing light on the mark, I have to hold the light up against the upper left side of the radiator tank and aim down in between the brackets from there. This DOES cause an angular displacement of the mark against the marker. So the questions are... Do you set the timing according to the mechanics angle of view? or Do you try to correct for this displacement by setting the timing a little retarded compared to what you "see" so that if viewed straight on, it would be right?         If the latter, I have probably have had the timing set 3-5 degrees too hot.         So I finally set the timing so that it looks like about 7degrees viewed from "the mechanics angle" and assume that is running it at about 10 if viewed from an unobstructed front-on view. So 10 is a little retarded, it should run kinda doggy and does, but it shouldn't chatter with the timing slightly retarded, (or am I out to lunch on this), and it STILL pings... Say your running about 45-50, on a paved county road, come up on a significant 90degree turn, slow to about 30, keep on the throttle through the curve, accelerating now and chatter chatter, (just lighter now than before and less duration) as you go through 35-40+ and then just as you start to even off the throttle she quiets down....         Why does this thing "ping" nearly all the time with anything less that ETHYL? [now that'll tell my age ;-) ]                 JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer         ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------- ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:01:45 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: stalling FSJ Hi Mr. Pierson, Naw, stalling's not a hot button really, just that I had an interesting summer messing with a truck that would intermittently die for varying lengths of time and more than one thing was causing it... Now I thought it was black smoke, fuel; blue smoke, oil; white smoke, coolant.... but I'm no authority. I only have hands on history with 2 FSJ's.... Of course the compression check will be interesting perhaps. And I have done one recently so maybe it will be useful to compare numbers... And if it's pulling coolant into A cylinder, I don't know if that would really kill it, maybe so. Maybe pulling into more than one. Compression check... As to the stalling... is it a stumble-dead? or a drop-dead no cough, no sputter? If you play with the pedal when this is happening do you get a backfire or cough? If you have your right foot on the throttle lightly as you pull up to the stop, use your left to brake so you can feel the pedal with your right foot... and when you pull up to the stop, and it dies, do you feel the pedal drop away slightly as it drops dead? As for the moniker... I guess I'm kinda cavalier about the name thing... maybe because our family has never had any well-known history... I wouldn't get all offended if you called all Lett's a bunch of no good horse thieves. Maybe they are, I don't know any of them outside my immediate family... Call me Steve if you like; JeepNut works as well, just don't call me late for dinner.... ;-) and JeepNut rolls off the fingers so nicely... I've got a mildly buggered up left little finger and S T E V E is a little more difficult to type correctly with repetition.... so, ultimately it's that I'm lazy... ;-) Keep us posted.... JeepNut From: Jim Pearson | Block address To: 'JeepNut' Subject: RE: fsj: FSJ: SFBay Mechanic? Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:47:50 -0700 Heya, JeepNut (how did your parents have the foresite to name you that??) - I think I did rescue it in time. And I am quite happy with its _prospects_ - -- the body's *great*, the interior's *fantastic*, etc. Just needs a little lovin'. Don't want to bore you with all the gory details (suffering through the entire long and sordid tale would definitely earn you an Adult Recreational Beverage of your choice). But, the current issue is this: When pulling up to a stop sign (warm or cold) she stalls. Not every time. Didn't do it when I bought it; I am sure I did something to screw her up (or, more precisely, Midas might have when they did the oil change and overfilled her). Now, tie that to this, 'cuz I think (am afraid) they are related: When starting, now, I get white smoke that gradually goes away. Valve-job, right? I was planning on doing a compression check this weekend to see if the heads are whole..... I *don't* want to do a head-gasket / valve-job myself. No garage, no time, not enough faith in my skills. Hence, looking for a mechanic. Thoughts? Recommendations? [Or is stalling a hot-button / forbidden topic on the list? : ) ] Jim - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:13:48 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: stalling FSJ If you are going to a mechanic anyway, have a compression leak down test done. It will tell you so much more about the condition of each cylinder than a standard compression test. IMHO. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JeepNut" To: ; "_FSJ List" Sent: 19 October, 2000 23:01 Subject: fsj: stalling FSJ > Hi Mr. Pierson, > Naw, stalling's not a hot button really, just that I had an interesting > summer messing with a truck that would intermittently die for varying > lengths of time and more than one thing was causing it... > > Now I thought it was black smoke, fuel; blue smoke, oil; white smoke, > coolant.... but I'm no authority. I only have hands on history with 2 > FSJ's.... > Of course the compression check will be interesting perhaps. And I have > done one recently so maybe it will be useful to compare numbers... > And if it's pulling coolant into A cylinder, I don't know if that would > really kill it, maybe so. Maybe pulling into more than one. Compression > check... > > As to the stalling... is it a stumble-dead? or a drop-dead no cough, no > sputter? > If you play with the pedal when this is happening do you get a backfire > or cough? > If you have your right foot on the throttle lightly as you pull up to > the stop, use your left to brake so you can feel the pedal with your right > foot... and when you pull up to the stop, and it dies, do you feel the pedal > drop away slightly as it drops dead? > > As for the moniker... I guess I'm kinda cavalier about the name thing... > maybe because our family has never had any well-known history... I wouldn't > get all offended if you called all Lett's a bunch of no good horse thieves. > Maybe they are, I don't know any of them outside my immediate family... > Call me Steve if you like; JeepNut works as well, just don't call me > late for dinner.... ;-) > and JeepNut rolls off the fingers so nicely... I've got a mildly > buggered up left little finger and S T E V E is a little more difficult to > type correctly with repetition.... so, ultimately it's that I'm lazy... ;-) > > Keep us posted.... > JeepNut > > > From: Jim Pearson | Block address > To: 'JeepNut' > Subject: RE: fsj: FSJ: SFBay Mechanic? > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:47:50 -0700 > Heya, JeepNut (how did your parents have the foresite to name you that??) - > I think I did rescue it in time. And I am quite happy with its _prospects_ > -- the body's *great*, the interior's *fantastic*, etc. Just needs a little > lovin'. > Don't want to bore you with all the gory details (suffering through the > entire long and sordid tale would definitely earn you an Adult Recreational > Beverage of your choice). But, the current issue is this: When pulling up > to a stop sign (warm or cold) she stalls. Not every time. Didn't do it > when I bought it; I am sure I did something to screw her up (or, more > precisely, Midas might have when they did the oil change and overfilled > her). > Now, tie that to this, 'cuz I think (am afraid) they are related: When > starting, now, I get white smoke that gradually goes away. > Valve-job, right? I was planning on doing a compression check this weekend > to see if the heads are whole..... > I *don't* want to do a head-gasket / valve-job myself. No garage, no time, > not enough faith in my skills. Hence, looking for a mechanic. > Thoughts? Recommendations? > [Or is stalling a hot-button / forbidden topic on the list? : ) ] > Jim > > > > > > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:14:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: fsj: Plugged fuel line? A: I just reread this. I have used compressed air to blow stuff out, but if the electric fuel pump is up front, it won't be able to keep up to the motor (learned that the hard way) Make sure there are no extra filters tucked away underneath on your fuel line too! (I found 6 in a Chevy once) The sock can collapse inside the tank and plug the line if there is enough crud to collapse it. A fuel pressure/ vacuum gauge is what you need to test the system. A vacuum gauge that climbs when put before the fuel pump means the screen is clogged up (I flushed my tank out to clean 2.5" of sludge out of it) If the gauge doesn't climb at all when you rev it, then the inlet valve on the fuel pump may be clogged. (which is why the pre-filter is important. I've never had to replace a fuel pump that wasn' t over 100,000 miles already) Same thing with a pressure gauge just before the carb. If you open the throttle and hold it steady, and the pressure drops steady, then there is a pump problem. Mike wrote: Hey Jim, I have had the filter (now cruded up abit with fine red sand like material) in line before the fuel pump, it seems like the restriction is in the mesh as it comes out of the tank. currently the flow of fuel is tank->filter->electric pump->carb, I removed the filter to see if that was the prob, but it remained running the same. running condition is ok to pretty good at idle, but it seems abit lean even with the mixture screws 3 turns out (started at 1.5 turns) above 1.5k rp/m, when i gas it initially it runs up and then starts a pretty big stumble, if i leave it at 2-3k rp/m it will back fire thru the exhaust (not the carb) and continue to run like crap. if i let off it idles pretty close to ok after that. the thing that makes me think fuel issue is the meager amount of fuel going thru the filter, it was pretty much a trickle coming from the tank and the filter was never more that an 1/8 or so full. so, the $64 question is - can i blow compressed air thru the fuel line back into the tank without damaging anything, will that clear the possible mesh block? seems like any mesh you blow off the of the inside will stay in the tank and just float around, potentially being picked up in the filter. comments/thoughts? much appreciated mike ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] A: While we're on this subject, anyone need a gas tank (with working sending unit) and skid plate for $40? Michael Shimniok wrote: Check: fuel filler hoses, all fuel lines and vent lines between tank and motor or emissions canister. Also check your gas cap, maybe just replace it for grins. It's a major PITA to change out the fuel/vent lines but probably worth it. Many of us suspect the tank vent lines that run behind the motor on pass side are a source of FSJ engine fires. I recently saw an otherwise ok 87 in the junkyard with a fire localized to this area. I've got FSJ BBQ on the brain cuz I narrowly escaped a major in-cabin, under-the-carpet electrical fire in my truck without even knowing it until last nite when I discovered 3 wires melted in half and a 2" burn crater in the carpet insulation! Scary!! Michael Tom & Lisa King wrote: Hello, I am new to the list but have a question. I have a 1986 Grand Wagoneer on which the gas tank plate is very (VERY) rusted. I have a replacement coming from California. But here is my question. I filled my gas tank up the other day and now I can smell gas outside the truck. One day it was only by the drivers door and last night only at the rear. I can see no leak!!!! Any ideas? Thanx Tom in Orlando - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that           is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 01:14:19 -0400 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Fw: Re: English lessons - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Drouillard" To: "Kim Smith" Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 1:02 AM Subject: Re: Re: English lessons > > "After a strenuous day of snowmobiling or cross-country skiing, have a > soak in the > > hot tub, and then relax and basque in front of an open fire." > > ... And don't forget to lay yourself down in front of the fire in your > room's fireplace! > > :-P > > Ray Drouillard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:31:53 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? Thanks Jim, So now does this mean rebuilt distributor?... That's why I wondered so much about the vacumn. Because it seems to me that it initially is OK, but starts to chatter or chatters a little harder sometimes, just before it quits. So I suspect the timing is not staying advanced upon acceleration like it ought to... Are there any User Serviceable Components Inside? Or is it a swap? No shaved heads and I don't think there's a huge carbon buildup. I've done the flush anyway. Also curious, what's the general rule, if I have a (made up number) NGK RJ334 How do I know what is colder? I dare not assume the kid at the AutoZone will know... not the ones around here.... Thanks! JeepNut James Blair wrote: > A: I suggest you change your spark plugs one set colder. It can make all > the difference in the world!. Your vac adv shouldn't be draining down > either. > I wonder if it is getting too much mechanical advance from weak > springs (or 1 missing one) If the heads were shaved, the higher > compression makes it harder to stop ping as well. > > Mail message > Help > Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net (JeepNut) Date: > Thu, Oct 19, 2000, 10:43pm (PDT+2) To: fsj-at-digest.net (_FSJ List) > Subject: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? > Hi group, > Now that the Wag seems to have fully recovered > from it's narcolepsy I am in the pursuit of ping. To briefly rehash for > those fortunate enought not to have to have lived with my nightmare all > summer.... > The 2150 carb is rebuilt and all vacumn lines > replaced while I chased other problems all summer. Fuel pump is <6mo > old. Truck has had $1800 worth of parts bestowed upon it over the last > year, mostly new electrical stuff recently, ECU, wires, plugs, wiring, > etc. 164,000 miles now. Timing chain is original AFAIK. > Now, when I transition the throttle for instance > making a turn on a country road, throttle up and it shifts to second > THEN chatters for several seconds as the speed builds. If I letup on the > throttle, the chatter fades. > or > Going up a slight incline or small hill it > chatters under throttle. Sounds like timing right? > I have fiddled and farted and adjusted the > timing till I am blue in the face, but this truck will NOT run without > chatter unless I have Premium fuel in it. I've been using Premium for > years in the thing as it has acted like this for quite some time. But it > is getting too expensive to put the good stuff in all the time. > All I hear is that I'm a moron for using premium > fuel. The truck doesn't need hi-test, it was designed to burn regular. > blah, blah, blah, I'm telling you right now that I DARE not put regular > in that thing or it wouldn't last 50 miles. > So what is the deal here? Any ideas? > Checked vacumn advance on the distributor and > the timing shift smoothly in response to vacumn added manually at the > distributor. But the vacumn isn't "held". You can pump it down, but it > comes right back to 0. > Guessing this is proper operation of the vacumn > advance mechanism. Vac at the manifold is 18 at idle, up to 22 at > 1500-2000. Vacumn responds to throttle nicely. or seems to, to me. > Now watching vacumn TO the distributor vacumn advance, from the CTO > valve, it responds also > to the throttle on a warm engine. I think that is good. Idling up to > 1500 RPM, goes from 0-8 lbs. Idling up to 2000-2500 RPM it goes up > from 8 -15 and holds there with > the throttle. > So I finally had a new idea... MAYBE I am > setting the timing wrong. Now for me to put a timing light on the > mark, I have to hold the light > up against the upper left side of the radiator tank and aim down in > between the brackets from there. This DOES cause an angular displacement > of the mark against the marker. So the questions are... > Do you set the timing according to the mechanics angle of view? or > Do you try to correct for this displacement by setting the timing a > little retarded compared to what you "see" so that if viewed straight > on, it would be right? > If the latter, I have probably have had the > timing set 3-5 degrees too hot. > So I finally set the timing so that it looks > like about 7degrees viewed from "the mechanics angle" and assume that is > running it at about 10 if viewed from an unobstructed front-on view. So > 10 is a little retarded, it should run kinda doggy and does, but it > shouldn't chatter with the timing slightly retarded, (or am I out to > lunch on this), and it STILL pings... Say your running about 45-50, on a > paved county road, come up on a significant 90degree turn, slow to about > 30, keep on the throttle through the curve, accelerating now and chatter > chatter, (just lighter now than before and less duration) as you go > through 35-40+ and then just as you start to even off the throttle she > quiets down.... > Why does this thing "ping" nearly all the time > with anything less that ETHYL? [now that'll tell my age ;-) ] > JeepNut > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------- > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1074 **************************