From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Oct 20 09:21:36 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, October 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1075 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? fsj: NOS FSJ stuff on Ebay fsj: and another thing... fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? fsj: Gas leak??? fsj: Re: Do I have a Timing problem? fsj: Re: Plugged fuel line? fsj: RE: Re: Plugged fuel line? fsj: 4bbl manifold on 69 350? fsj: Re: Plugged fuel line? fsj: Re: Do I have a Timing problem fsj: NEXT A-12 HUNT 12/1/00 - ALL FSJs INVITED FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:47:08 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? > Also curious, what's the general rule, if I have a (made up number) NGK > RJ334 How do I know what is colder? I dare not assume the kid at the > AutoZone will know... not the ones around here.... Rule of thumb for heat ranges: The HIGHER the number, the HOTTER the plug EXCEPT Nippondenso. They go the other way, lower is hotter. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:21:29 -0700 From: Paul & Megan Kershner Subject: Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? I recently replaced my fuel sending unit (which, by the way, is under the rear seat on the right side under an inspection plate that is screwed on) in my '84 and at the end of the "dip-tube" was a mesh filter-sock. Went to a few auto parts store first - no luck. Just for fun, went to the dealer and viola! got one for less than $5. pk JeepNut wrote: > > Hi Mr. D'Ambrogia, > Yes, Jim Blair has mentioned about a "filter sock" at the end (beginning) of > the feed tube, in the tank. He felt like his disintegrated as a result of MTBE > additive in fuel and caused him a fuel starvation or clogged up the other filter > with it's remains or something similar.... > Not that I need to answer for him, but I don't see any Jim posts last few > days... > JeepNut > > Mike D'Ambrogia wrote: > > > Listers! > > > > 69 Wag running rough - feels like its being starved for fuel. So I got > > under the truck and looked at the plastic see-thru fuel filter. With the > > wag running it is dribbling fuel into the filter such that the filter is at > > most 1/8th full of gas, this just doesn't look right. Seems logical to > > assume that at a minimum the filter should be at least 1/2 full. > > > > In looking at the service manaul it shows the line coming out of the tank, > > but does not show if there is some sort of mesh filter at the other end or > > if it is just pulling from a line that is open at the bottom of the tank. > > Before I run abunch of compressed air from the filter back into the tank to > > make sure it is open, i wanted to see if anybody knows whats at the > > beginning of the line (filter, nozzle,?) when gas is initially pulled from > > the tank towards the aftermarket cheap fuel filter? Need to know what I'm > > about to potentially trash... > > > > BTW, I installed an electric fuel pump in a horizontal orientation, I guess > > I need to test that also - I'm open to ideas how. Current thought is to > > disconnect input fuel line, plug with finger, turn on ignition and see if it > > pulls. > > > > - Check gas level (guage inop, new one on workbench) > > - blow line(s) out > > - test fuel pump > > - recheck lines > > - ? > > > > Mike > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 03:14:46 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: NOS FSJ stuff on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=472272133 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473796431 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473924606 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473937297 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473964896 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473971048 Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 19-Oct-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 04:24:49 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: and another thing... JeepNut writes: >> When you're setting the timing on the 360, everything I've read says you are to disconnect the vacumn line to the distributor vac advance and plug it. Why? I show 0 lbs of vac on that line at idle anyway, so what would be the point? The vacumn responds to the throttle well, so appears that the engine vacumn is good, but please correct me if I am wrong. At idle, the vac advance should not be affecting the timing, should it? << It is because most FSJs have a CTO (thermal vacuum switch) which applies manifold vaccum to the vac. advance until a certain coolant temp. Then it switches port vac. to the vac. advance. My '79 switches at 160F. Plus if you get the idle speed high enough, there will be a small vac. signal on the port vac. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 20-Oct-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 04:24:50 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Do I have a Timing problem? JeepNut writes: >> and it STILL pings... Say your running about 45-50, on a paved county road, come up on a significant 90degree turn, slow to about 30, keep on the throttle through the curve, accelerating now and chatter chatter, (just lighter now than before and less duration) as you go through 35-40+ and then just as you start to even off the throttle she quiets down.... Why does this thing "ping" nearly all the time with anything less that ETHYL? << Almost all Duraspark vac. advance mechs. are adjustable. There's an Allen screw inside the vac. nipple. Now you can do this two ways. If it's pinging only under light throttle acceleration, then I'd retard the vacuum advance a few degrees. If it's pinging under a pretty good load, then I'd retard the initial timing a few degrees and then advance the vac. advance timing a few degrees. An advance timing light is almost necessary to monkey with the vac. advance timing. You could temporarily retard the initial timing to TDC and then suck on a hose connected to the vac. can. and use the timing scale to gauge your adjustments, but it would be much easier with an advance light. Especially a digital advance timing light. A properly functioning EGR valve really works wonders for ping too. As James said, if your vac. advance diaphragm has too much leak down; it needs to be replaced. You can replace just the vac. can. Too much leak-down is when you can't easily hold the vac. advance at full advance sucking on a hose hooked-up to the nipple. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 20-Oct-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 04:24:44 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Gas leak??? Ooops...posting to the wrong list as usual: - ------------------------------------------------------------------ FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 20-Oct-00 00:15:08 Subject: Gas leak??? From: Michael Baxter MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com To: FSJ-List (Posts) INTERNET:fsj-list-at-lists.off-road.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tom & Lisa King writes: >> I filled my gas tank up the other day and now I can smell gas outside the truck. One day it was only by the drivers door and last night only at the rear. I can see no leak!!!! << Tom, it is possible your vapor recovery system and tank are still tight. Assuming your FSJ is new enough to have a vapor recovery system. There is a pressure relief valve in the gas cap which is designed to vent at 1.5 PSI. Next time you smell gas, sniff around the cap and see if it's just the relief valve letting excess pressure off the tank. I catch a whiff from mine from time to time right after shutting it off in the garage and it is relief valve. Otherwise, it doesn't take enough fuel to cause a drip before you are able to smell it. A close inspection of the tank and all the hoses with a flashlight may reveal a wet spot. Taking the spare tire out makes it a lot easier to look. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 20-Oct-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:16:33 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Do I have a Timing problem? It doesn't seem too unreasonable to think your timing chain might be shot after 164K. I admit it is kind of a painful repair if you are just doing it on speculationl. I wouldn't worry about the angle thing too much with regard to the timing marks. The marks are so close together that the angle from them to your eye shouldn't matter too much. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:43:28 -0500 > From: JeepNut > > Hi group, > Now that the Wag seems to have fully recovered from it's narcolepsy I am > in the pursuit of ping. To briefly rehash for those fortunate enought not > to have to have lived with my nightmare all summer.... > The 2150 carb is rebuilt and all vacumn lines replaced while I chased > other problems all summer. Fuel pump is <6mo old. Truck has had $1800 > worth of parts bestowed upon it over the last year, mostly new electrical > stuff recently, ECU, wires, plugs, wiring, etc. 164,000 miles now. Timing > chain is original AFAIK. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:16:34 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Plugged fuel line? Blowing out lines seems like the least likely solution and the most likely to cause other problems. Your electric fuel pump needs to be at or below the level of the fuel tank and as near it as possible. These pumps are good "pushers" but bad "pullers" so if it's mounted on the fenderwell it's not at it's best. Next I'd check to make sure all fuel lines between pump and tank were in good shape. The slightest leak will make the pump suck air instead of fuel. Rubber lines are the biggest offender because they can look fine until you take them off and flex them and then you see all the cracks. I used to run two electric fuel pumps. Trial, error, and expense lead me to believe that the mechanical pump was the best solution. By the way, have you got a switch on that pump that will shut it off in the event of an accident or rollover? I never got around to putting one in -- one of the reasons I went back to the mechanical pump. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:47:41 -0700 > From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" > Listers! > > 69 Wag running rough - feels like its being starved for fuel. So I got > under the truck and looked at the plastic see-thru fuel filter. With the > wag running it is dribbling fuel into the filter such that the filter is at > most 1/8th full of gas, this just doesn't look right. Seems logical to > assume that at a minimum the filter should be at least 1/2 full. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 06:59:08 -0700 From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Plugged fuel line? > Blowing out lines seems like the least likely solution and the most likely to > cause other problems. ya, thats what i'm trying to determine, just what the likelyhood of damage may be and what may be damaged. seems the worst case scenario is that I will have the mesh sock floating around in the tank if it gets blown off the line, maybe end up hanging off the float for the sending unit. i guess that if that happens it will be easy to fish off... > Your electric fuel pump needs to be at or below the level of the > fuel tank > and as near it as possible. These pumps are good "pushers" but > bad "pullers" > so if it's mounted on the fenderwell it's not at it's best. interesting point, did not consider that. i've got it mounted at the same level as the exit point of the tank. the tank has a metal line that brings fuel out of the tank via the top, and down to the seam on the side and around to the front. its at about mid frame rail height, and i've mounted the pump on the frame directly above the x-member for the t-case, almost under the drivers seat. the distance from the between the tank and the pump is about 4 inches and it is probably at 3/4 tank level. in this mornings episode, our hero has purchased some additional fuel line and will feed the fuel pump directly from a gas can to see if the flow thru the filter is better. if so then I'm pulling the compressor out. when i pulled the tank yesterday to replace the sender i noticed that a considerable amount of gas was still sitting in the metal line that exits the tank for the gas feed. when i tipped the tank nose up to get the gas to drain back in and then let it back down there was still gas in it. BTW, gas is nasty stuff to work with. I'm looking fwd to resolving this problem and getting the propane system in, much cleaner and higher efficiency fuel. BTW, my new gauge shows 1/2 full with only 5 gallons in an 18 gallon tank, thats going to make those last 50-60 miles left very interesting to watch after the gauge reads 1/2 full and then begins its non-linear plunge towards empty. Yeah, yeah, i know - 10-12 MPG on this pig is pretty optimistic, but a guy can dream can't he?. > Next I'd check to make sure all fuel lines between pump and tank were in good > shape. The slightest leak will make the pump suck air instead of fuel. > Rubber lines are the biggest offender because they can look fine until you take > them off and flex them and then you see all the cracks. all brand new 3/8" line, and i did have a bunch of cracks in the lines, misc dripping, etc prior to replacement. made for a smelly ride. > By the > way, have you > got a switch on that pump that will shut it off in the event of > an accident > or rollover? thats a good point, had not thought of that. thanks for the safety tip. mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:07:52 -0700 From: "Mike D'Ambrogia" Subject: fsj: 4bbl manifold on 69 350? While posting just a second ago about MPG, I flashed on a post on a different list that I saw awhile back (http://forums.vmag.com/pm-0499/messages/1750.html) where the guy said that putting a "4-bbl manifold of a 1973 buick century with the 350 will work, i did it to mine. a chevy 350 distributor with HEI ignition will bolt right on as well, a touch more power." any truth to this rumor about the manifold swap? anybody done this? what kind of carb did you use or what would you think the minimum CFM required would be? whats the impact on milage? whats the impact on performance? i would have to imagine that the mileage would not get much worse and that the performance overall might be abit better... mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:00:57 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Plugged fuel line? In a message dated 10/20/00 7:02:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, miked-at-momotech.net writes: > > Blowing out lines seems like the least likely solution and the most likely > to > > cause other problems. > > ya, thats what i'm trying to determine, just what the likelyhood of damage > may be and what may be damaged. Basically, anything that is plugged is going to put stress somewhere else when you put pressure on it. In a worst case, a plugged vent could blow out a fuel tank that's on it's last legs. Maybe in 66 there was no vent? > seems the worst case scenario is that I > will have the mesh sock floating around in the tank if it gets blown off the > line, maybe end up hanging off the float for the sending unit. i guess that > if that happens it will be easy to fish off... Could be - if you don't blow it to filter-clogging bits. I avoid dropping the tank at all costs, but since you've already been there, maybe you don't mind doing it again. > > Your electric fuel pump needs to be at or below the level of the > > fuel tank > > and as near it as possible. These pumps are good "pushers" but > > bad "pullers" > > so if it's mounted on the fenderwell it's not at it's best. > > interesting point, did not consider that. i've got it mounted at the same > level as the exit point of the tank. the tank has a metal line that brings > fuel out of the tank via the top, and down to the seam on the side and > around to the front. its at about mid frame rail height, and i've mounted > the pump on the frame directly above the x-member for the t-case, almost > under the drivers seat. the distance from the between the tank and the pump > is about 4 inches and it is probably at 3/4 tank level. This is probably an adequate mounting location. The only possible improvement would be to get closer to the pickup tube in the tank, but I'm not sure how that would be achieved. When I bought my Wag it had 2 electric pumps screwed up through the floor. I can't recommend that method. > in this mornings episode, our hero has purchased some additional fuel line > and will feed the fuel pump directly from a gas can to see if the flow thru > the filter is better. if so then I'm pulling the compressor out. Earlier you described the filter and having a reddish sandy substance in it. Sounds like rust. Maybe time for a new filter. When my sock was disintegrating, I had to make very frequent filter changes. Rust might require same. > when i pulled the tank yesterday to replace the sender i noticed that a > considerable amount of gas was still sitting in the metal line that exits > the tank for the gas feed. when i tipped the tank nose up to get the gas to > drain back in and then let it back down there was still gas in it. BTW, gas > is nasty stuff to work with. I'm looking fwd to resolving this problem and > getting the propane system in, much cleaner and higher efficiency fuel. BTW, > my new gauge shows 1/2 full with only 5 gallons in an 18 gallon tank, thats > going to make those last 50-60 miles left very interesting to watch after > the gauge reads 1/2 full and then begins its non-linear plunge towards > empty. Next time you have the tank down, a new sending unit would be in order. Jim Blair got one pretty inexpensively at a swap meet. I think he said it worked pretty well. > Yeah, yeah, i know - 10-12 MPG on this pig is pretty optimistic, but > a guy can dream can't he?. That's the kind of mileage I was getting before I switched to the 4 barrel. Hopefully, I won't have to go back to the 2 barrel to get that mileage again. > all brand new 3/8" line, and i did have a bunch of cracks in the lines, misc > dripping, etc prior to replacement. made for a smelly ride. I got so used to that smell that I often worry that I won't notice when it comes back. It's been one of my biggest problems. I've found that rubber lines need to have the clamps snugged up periodically for the first week or so after initial installation. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:08:39 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: Do I have a Timing problem May be your distributor vac advance is stuck or buggered springs/weight combo, or too woobly distributor, may be the chain slipped a few teeth.... and what you see with the timing is not what the engine has Do the Jim B. timing, increase timing for highest vaccum and back it off after test drive so it does not ping anymore. I am running about 12 to 15 degrees... and the specs ask for 5! Cheers Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:38:36 EDT From: RMSquaredJeeps-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: NEXT A-12 HUNT 12/1/00 - ALL FSJs INVITED Hello again: After getting feedback from several list members and those interested in our first attempt to find the remains of the A-12 (not A-10) that crashed east of Groom Lake/Area 51 back in January 1967, we have started to finalize plans for a return expedition. It seems that everyone had some sort of problem with every weekend in November so I'm pushing back the next trip to the weekend of December 1. This gives those interested about 6 weeks to set aside the time and is after the Thanksgiving Day weekend but before things get really crazy approaching Christmas. There is only one problem with this, the later we make it, the more chance weather can become a factor since the site is both remote and about 5,000 feet above sea level. This makes camping out in the backcountry at this time of year a bit more challenging. Here's the plan, comments/suggestions welcomed. For those of you that can travel on Friday, we will have a base of operations Friday night in either Caliente or Pioche. To Caliente, from a variety of major western cities, here is the mileage: Los Angeles - 450 miles San Francisco - 500 miles Salt Lake City - 350 miles Denver - 675 miles Phoenix - 435 miles I will be traveling up to Caliente on Friday, leaving Orange County at noon and anticipate arriving around 7 PM if I start on time. After seeing how many people are interested in making this trip, I will contact local hotels to negotiate the best price for the required number of rooms for those who prefer not to camp Friday night. The Overland Hotel and Saloon in Pioche where I stayed last week charged $39 for a single but they have several multi-room "suites" available that would bring down the cost for those people who are willing to share a suite. This hotel is rustic but clean and has a bar and casino downstairs. I suspect in the mining days, this was the local cathouse but was not able to confirm my suspicions with any of the locals. It is a 45 minute drive to the mouth of Cottonwood Canyon so if we have breakfast at 7:00 and leave at 8:00 we should arrive at the entrance of the canyon at 9:00. For those that may not have the luxury of taking Friday off and may travel overnight, we can set up a second rendezvous point at the mouth of the canyon. The Jeep trail is approximately 3 miles long and can be traversed easily by a stock FSJ along most of the way as it is a dry riverbed. Certainly in a moderately lifted FSJ the trek will be easier. Figuring that the three miles will take no more than an hour, that should get us to the end of the trail by 10. That's as far as we got the last trip. The suspected wreck site (more on that later) is about 2 miles away which means conservatively, we should arrive by noon. This will give us at least 4 hours to survey the site before hiking back to the trucks where we can camp for the night. If we find the site quickly, we can hike out earlier and then we have the choice of staying in the Cottonwood Canyon to camp or driving back out if it is determined that we have enough light to do so. This will obviously be dictated by the degree of success we enjoy finding the remains on Saturday. If we don't find the remains on Saturday, we have the option, since we will be camping in the canyon at the end of the Jeep trail, to return to the site to look again but I suspect that we will want to be heading out of the canyon no later than noon so that those having a long drive home can get an early enough start so as to not have to drive after midnight. Two notes: First, we won't be going up blind this time with only Tom Mahood's narrative to guide us. When we were in Pioche we made contact with some locals who are spreading the word about our expedition. This includes a local surveyor who is going to do some advance research for me and hopefully will confirm that we are actually looking in the right place. If not, the above itinerary will be revised but we are working from two main clues in Tom Mahood's narrative - first, the pilot landed on the side of a 6,000 foot mountain peak, the plane came to rest within 4 miles and that the site is about 2 miles from the closest trail. Using those clues, I came to the conclusion that the site is somewhere in Cougar Canyon. With the help of the surveyor, I'm hoping to pinpoint the 6,000 mountain that the pilot landed on, having that information confirmed will certainly narrow down the rest of the hunt. I will probably be doing a test of handheld GPS units at the same time so we will have backup GPS and not having to depend upon my laptop for that function although Delorme was kind enough to send me their 3D Topo CD-ROM maps of the area. I will use them to generate detailed maps of the target areas and will be able to E-mail JPGs to those making the trip even before we leave. I think this will be a big advantage this time around. Based on our past experience I would say that a 6-vehicle expedition would be great, especially if one or more of the vehicles was lifted and equipped with a winch. Although I did no damage to my truck when I high centered (it is stock with standard 235 x 15 tires), it did take the better part of an hour getting it off the rocks having only a floor jack available to extract the truck from its situation. For this trip it will be equipped with more suitable rubber. For those who are interested, here again are the relevant web sites: http://www.serve.com/mahood/a-12/ (Tom Mahood's narrative) http://jeepwriter.homepage.com/A12trip.html (photos of first trip) If you're interested in making this trip with us on December 1, please contact me directly off-list at rmsquaredjeeps-at-aol.com. When you contact me please provide your name, number of people in your Jeep along with their names, your phone number with best times to call, the year and model of your Jeep, its equipment level (lifted, winch-equipped, etc.), your experience level (I would rate this trail a 5 or 6 on the Jeep Jamboree USA scale) and if you are equipped to camp in the backcountry. With that information I am confident of planning a trip that is fun, challenging and safe. Hope you can join us. Richard Truesdell 1969 Jeep Super Wagoneer ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1075 **************************