From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Oct 25 22:09:10 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, October 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1081 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Fwd: cable fsj: Re: cable Fwd: Re: fsj: Re: 77 wagoneer w/401 fsj: RE: Ford TFI fsj: Re: xj: pics of my XJ up! fsj: Re: Jeep died fsj: tranny questions Re: [fsj: tranny questions] Re: [fsj: tranny questions] fsj: eGroups : Autozoners Re: [1FSJ] Re: [fsj: tranny questions] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:38:59 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Fwd: cable Seems to me it would be easier to make another cable work than to mess with getting/making the linkage and cutting a hole. Cables can be had in a variety of lengths, both new and at a junkyard. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:56:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) > > A: I'm passing this to the quadratrack guys. I know more about the '80 > and newer New Process transfercases > > > Hi Jim. I was told you could answer a question on my Jeep PU. My low > range is operated by a cable under the dash and it has broken. I talked > to a guy who has the newer style on a Wagoneer which operates by a lever > under the front seat. Is it feasible to use his set-up to replace my > cable system? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:59:08 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: cable it should work as well from under the dash or by the floor. you need to find the lever..... and a matching cable to fit the end part Remember, that you can activate the lever by the low range with your hands.... Of course put in neutral.... a flat ground is good... make sure you are not going to be crushed -do not do it in a green Jeep- Worked for me when the cable rusted inside.... Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:42:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Fwd: Re: fsj: Re: 77 wagoneer w/401  * * Quote-of-the-day * * "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."                 - Plato Received: from smtpin-101-4.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.29) by storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtpin-101-4.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id DBA5515F; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: carnuck-at-webtv.net Received: from imo-r17.mail.aol.com (imo-r17.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.71]) by smtpin-101-4.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 011461C2 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Chrisharon-at-aol.com by imo-r17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.31.) id 2.f9.3d627bd (4251) for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:15:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Chrisharon-at-aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:15:27 EDT Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 77 wagoneer w/401 To: Carnuck-at-webtv.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 125 In a message dated 10/22/2000 2:14:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Carnuck-at-webtv.net writes: > A: I bet it's the connector between the dist and harness. '77 was the > last year for Presto-no-lite dist, and there was a factory bulletin > about that. '78-'91 was Motorcraft Duraspark system. The repair is to > cut the connector out and splice the wires together. Any corrosion > caused a loss of signal in the hall effect dist. which shuts the engine > off. Aside from that, hinkey ignition switches can cause trouble too. > I've got an intermittant engine cut-out. It's only gotten REALLY noticable since I put in a Holley "D" system (Used). I've been wondering if maybe my ignition key isn't going bad, and I just didn't notice it as bad with the ol' carb (maybe the MSD ignition isn't as voltage sensative as the Holley FI?). Anyway, I've kind of been wondering if that couldn't be part of the problem along with a KNOWN intermittantly bad throttle position sensor. What are your thoughts on this? Chris Enos '78 Cherokee "The Big Blue Whale" (401/Holley "D" Projection) (Holley "Z" intake/TH400/Q-track with part-time kit/3.55/35") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:40:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: RE: Ford TFI A: I'm cc'ing you guys, because those with Renix systems or BBD Carter feedback systems, or even the Renix TBI may be interested in this. shawn hagler wrote:   Hello, all! In 1973, (bye- bye points!) Ford started using SOLID STATE IGNITION on some cars. This looked something like the DURASPARK system. A: The '73 Merc Marquis 460 I've been driving (mostly to the gas station it seems) is still points, and I had a number of '73 Pintos (used to like them. Especially the 2.0 and 1.6L with 5 speeds) that were points too. The '74 Pintos and Bobcats had DS1 in them, which had a start and run circuit inside. I had a lot of them croak and I just joined the 2 circuits together, and away they'd go for who knows how long (went through lots of plugs and some ignition coils, but no more boxes that Ford wanted $150 CDN for at the time!) In 1977, they introduced the HIGH OUTPUT, or, DURASPARK I ignition system. The biggest visible difference was the larger, adapted distributor cap, and the "snap- on" coil terminals. It had a higher output coil, and no ballast resistor. Used only on California 5.0 engines. The DURASPARK II was introduced not long after that (don' t have figures for it). It looks pretty much the same as the previous type. The difference was in the ignition box, or fender- mounted module. A: The DS2 was '76 in Fords, and mid '77 for Jeeps. Depending on car, location, and equipment, there was a dual- mode module, a cranking retard module, and a universal module. You can tell them apart by a colored grommet. A: The Eagles and 6 cyl Jeeps after '81 took advantage of the built in retard by hooking the carb computer to it, so when the knock sensor (basically a microphone) heard ping, the box would retard your timing. Engine noise, such as rattling rockers and exhaust leaks can trick this sensor into thinking your motor is pinging, and retard timing, causing poor power and running.       (When I put Bitron oil additive in my Eagle, the internal noise dropped significantly, and power increased drastically, and it was most likely due to this)       The bypass wiring trick (I have a copy posted on my webpage below) will tell you real quick if this is a problem, OR you could check for output voltage at the sensor. (5V IIRC) which means it senses ping. The plug in can be jumpered to tell the computer that all is okay, and it will run your timing at full advance.       The same thing goes on the '87 to '90 4.0L XJs. If there is engine noise, your power will be down because the computer will be backing off timing from max advance.       The ignition box that is the same as FSJs '77 til '87 is the blue grommet one IIRC. I think the wires may be swapped at the plug for some reason though. The Ford one is about $20 new, and the AMC one, which is identical except the plug, is nearly $100! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:36:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: xj: pics of my XJ up! A: Man, you couldn't get me more than 100 feet off the beaten path w/o at least a comealong and 100 feet of titanium chain! I got stuck once overnight in Mission, BC, coming out of Davis lake park out the end of Sylvester rd, in the winter of '78 while driving my '66 Pontiac (6cyl 2 speed auto) along with my ex-wife (6 mo.s pregnant) and my younger brother (16). We had been down to the lake for a picnic, and the sun melted the snow on the road we came in on. We were last to come out, and I couldn't get up the hill in forward, so I backed all the way up the hill since reverse gear was higher and didn't spin. (BTW, that trail to the lake collapsed in a slide -at- '80) The second to last guy was waiting at the top for us (took me a little driving time to make sure I was going the right way) and as soon as we rounded the last corner, he took off, leaving 4 deep iced up ruts. I didn't know this of course, and I slowed down, since we were at the top, and I figured we'd be out in no time. Thump thump! No more movement! ^-at-^#%-at-^#-at-&&^!! Open the trunk, and find my good jack, comealong, tire chains and shovel had taken a walk! The tools we had? Tin snips, a hammer and a bag of sand plus some motor tools and a spare can of gas (had most of a tank still left) and the sun was going down, with the temps and only my ex had a jacket (glad of that!) We cleared around the tailpipe so the car could keep running w/o poisonous CO exhausting us inside and we cut pieces out of the rear 1/4 panels I was going to replace anyways, and made shovels with branches and some muffler clamps. Unfortunately, the temp dropped too fast and it all went to ice, so we climbed back in the car to keep warm (I had a full box of Red Rose tea and a cig lighter tea maker that I still have). I kept checking for someone to pick up my CB signal, but a branch had bent my antenna and the match was way off, so I could hear them, but not vice versa. We did get to see a BEAUTIFUL sunrise across the lake and snowy peaks the next AM (sunday, in GOD's country. picture a crater with a lake surrounded by snow ), We were just getting started on digging out, when a Jimmy with 12" lift came up the road from below. Apparently, there was a snow fall on the road coming in, and this guy was the ONLY one around that was able to get in. (he was running a 427 and 40" Cooper Discoverers that I wish I'd had) He had my dad and father-in-law with him, and I wasn't sure if I was going to get hugged or slugged! It's a good thing we had let them know where we were going and stuck with the plan! He tried to pull the car loose, but the ice packed into the frame had frozen to the ground and it wouldn't budge. We left because the weather report said more snow was coming (freezing rain by the time we got down to town), and I came back 2 weeks later with a buddy from work (he was driving my old IH Travelall with OHC 6 that had I regrets selling, but I needed tires for my race car). Lots of people had been around it (tire tracks from the big toys) and the only thing done to the car was an empty beer can on the antenna! Sure couldn't do that nowadays! I'd have come back to a burnt, stripped hulk most likely! I jumped in, twisted the key, and it fired right up. I brought along a coal oil forced air heater from the paint shop (still have it in my garage) and AC/DC power adapter, hooked it up, and had all the snow within 10 feet of the car melted in 10 minutes. Threw all the stuff in the trunk as soon as the heater cooled, and we were on our way! He was surprised that I went ahead of him leaving, and made better time coming out of there than he did! The drifts were nearly fender top high that I was ploughing through too! I sure want to get to work on Blackie and have it ready to go before the snow! (it'll be easier to drive to my next place than tow too!) Tomorrow I have to dig through the paper looking for a CHEAP moving van to put my garage full of stuff in. (doesn't even have to run right now. I plan to go to the flea market with it in spring so there is no hurry) Oh, yeah! I knew there was something to all this I was forgetting! If you have a tow chain or rope, etc but no winch. IF there is a tree close by you can hook behind you, you can wrap the rope around your tire like a yoyo, use vise grips on the ebrake of the other side if it's hanging in the air, and use that for a winch. I've taken tires off the rim of clunkers down on the farm to pull myself out of some nasty spots winch style, where I didn't dare get the 4WD tractor too close to! (too heavy and it would have sunk out of sight!) Speaking of sunk, there's the time some idiot parked off the side of the Alska highway in summer with a D9 on his truck, but that's another thing altogether! Doug Wright Yes, the thought did cross my mind ... at least a few times ... in my two days there :)   And no, I wasn't contemplating whether I would prefer a Warn or Milemarker ... I would have been glad to have anything at that point. I do plan on getting one probably sometime next year though. At least I carry a shovel now. I did have a rope and tow strap which didn't do much good ... I just wasn't able to move the jeep using brute strength :) And I think my bottle jack saw more use than most see in a lifetime. I cranked that thing up and down until it felt like my arms were going to fall off! Doug ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:44:52 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Jeep died Mike, gonna send this post mortem to the FSJ list... (no need to respond jb, we've got it covered... ) (I also suggested that mike check his grounds, it's quite possible that electrical noise on the system could be damaging the electronics. An alternator that's going bad could do the same thing. You'd have to watch the system with an oscilloscope to see it, a voltmeter might tell you if you really knew what you were doing. You could try measuring the AC voltage at a distant point from your battery, perhaps in the fuse panel or even at the ignition module power input. If you see anything over 3 to 5 vAC running on the 12vdc (actually 13.8v) then you have a bad ground, a failing diode in the alternator or a bad regulator. Corrosion in connectors and grounds will cause the same problem, especially if the signal viewed by an oscilloscope is aperiodic.) BTW, I hear rumors to the effect that billy bob, sally sue and biff will be checking into this problem on Billy Bob's rig in an upcoming issue of FSJ magazine... ;) john At 07:29 PM 10/24/00 -0700, mike parris wrote: >It was the ignition control module. They don't seem to last long on my >Jeep ????? > >Mike > >john wrote: > > > it's probably something electrical... ignition wire, fusible link > > within the ignition circuit, electronic ignition or coil failed... > > most likely with a smell there will be a burned or melted wire... :) > > > > john > > > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, mike parris wrote: > > > > >-->Just suddenly shut down, doesn't seem to be getting any spark. I wasn't > > >-->driving it at the time (kids said they smelled something odd, which > scares > > >-->me). Everything else electrically seems to be working fine, but it just > > >-->refuses to start. It could be the ICM, whicht I replaced that about > a year > > >-->ago. It's just a guess. > > >-->Mike > > >--> - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:59:02 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: tranny questions I'm back from Cedar Rapids, Iowa... nice, clean, quiet town. The humidity was 100% all three days I was there... I'd forgotten about "muggy". Funny, it's 100% humidity here today, but about 10 degrees cooler and feels fine... when it does get warmer here it dries out quickly... unlike there. :) Anyway, I'm thinking about shifting... I don't like it very much and am getting spoiled by the mercedes... problem is I have to sell it. I can get a TF727 very reasonably and have an NP229 set aside for me by a friend, and even have the driveshafts for the J10 already purchased from ebay and sitting in a corner... How much am I gonna lose by going to an AT from my 5 speed in: - - mpg? - - off the line performance? (actually starting out might be faster) - - top end? - - rpm on the highway( have 3.31's with 31x10.5s) - - durability? - - trail manners? Of course this is the perennial question of all 4x4dom.... slushbox or gearbox? The pluses and minuses on both sides are all valid... when my starter failed, I could bump start Superdawg and get home... can't do that with a slushbox... anyway, figured since I'm back I'd stir things up a bit. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 25 Oct 00 15:15:14 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: tranny questions] Let the war begin. :) Why in the WORLD do you want to get rid of your manual tranny??? I see mpg as a priority for you, and an AT will only hurt that. As for OFFROAD-- I will NOT give up my slushbox. I've seen too many clutch legs, repeated stalls, and "low end power" complaints on big obstacles to ever go manual. With MT, going up obstacles, you have to keep your speed and rpms up without touching the clutch. You bump into a ledge and come to a sudden stop, rpms drop to 10, torque plummets, and lacking power to get over the obstacle, you stall. Low-end torque is blamed but it is a lot to expect a motor to work at rpms well below idle. The solution? A granny gear that offers torque multiplication and allows you to spin above idle rpm so next time you bump into the obstacle you hopefully have enough power delivered to get over it without dropping rpms so far that you stall. With an AT, if you bump into the same obstacle, your vehicle speed drops to 0, your rpms stay above idle, you apply more throttle with some careful left foot braking to control speed, and you pop over the obstacle, no problem. An AT's torque multiplication and slip are huge advantages off-road. Then you come over the obstacle and down the next steep hill and pick up speed and fly to your death while your friend with the granny gear MT idles down at 2mph clucking and shaking\ his head saying "poor foolish slushbox owner..." :) The only fix to downhill control on a slushbox is lower lo range and/or lower stall speed converter. 2.62 does ok for most hills but the steeper ones require brakes. Not a good thing. If price was no object, the ultimate configuration is an AT, crawler box with 4:1 lo-range mated to a tcase with > 2:1 low range. You get the best of ALL worlds and effectively a 3spd tcase. Michael john wrote: > - mpg? > - off the line performance? (actually starting out might be faster) > - top end? > - rpm on the highway( have 3.31's with 31x10.5s) > - durability? > - trail manners? > > Of course this is the perennial question of all 4x4dom.... slushbox > or gearbox? The pluses and minuses on both sides are all valid... > when my starter failed, I could bump start Superdawg and get home... > can't do that with a slushbox... > > anyway, figured since I'm back I'd stir things up a bit. :) > > john > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > "The truth which makes men free is for the most part > the truth which men prefer not to hear." > ---Herbert Sebastian Agar > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:36:18 -0400 From: "MadMarx" Subject: Re: [fsj: tranny questions] With a FSJ, you have room for a LONG drivetrain...With money no object, you can stack crawler boxes before the tcase.... 4 crawler box 2 low* 2.72 crawler box 1 low* 2.6 tcase low * 3.06 First gear in 700r4 *2.0(Converter) * 4.56's (not bad with overdrive) and you have a crawl of 789:1....How slow do you want to go??? :-) Redline in overdrive with everything else in low would be about 2 feet per day Mark > > If price was no object, the ultimate configuration is an AT, > crawler box with 4:1 lo-range mated to a tcase with > 2:1 low > range. You get the best of ALL worlds and effectively a 3spd > tcase. > > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:58:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: eGroups : Autozoners ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** http://www.egroups.com/group/Autozoners ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: [1FSJ] Re: [fsj: tranny questions] A: I drove for years with std trans. I now prefer autos, and I plan to add a driveline brake (sort of like the old ebrake setups) that is hydraulic backpressure. The gears I have now (3.31) will be just fine for most apps I'll bump into. I'll have regenerative brakes for the electric hybrid I'm rigging up as well. Michael Shimniok wrote: Let the war begin. :) Why in the WORLD do you want to get rid of your manual tranny??? I see mpg as a priority for you, and an AT will only hurt that. As for OFFROAD-- I will NOT give up my slushbox. I've seen too many clutch legs, repeated stalls, and "low end power" complaints on big obstacles to ever go manual. With MT, going up obstacles, you have to keep your speed and rpms up without touching the clutch. You bump into a ledge and come to a sudden stop, rpms drop to 10, torque plummets, and lacking power to get over the obstacle, you stall. Low-end torque is blamed but it is a lot to expect a motor to work at rpms well below idle. The solution? A granny gear that offers torque multiplication and allows you to spin above idle rpm so next time you bump into the obstacle you hopefully have enough power delivered to get over it without dropping rpms so far that you stall. With an AT, if you bump into the same obstacle, your vehicle speed drops to 0, your rpms stay above idle, you apply more throttle with some careful left foot braking to control speed, and you pop over the obstacle, no problem. An AT's torque multiplication and slip are huge advantages off-road. Then you come over the obstacle and down the next steep hill and pick up speed and fly to your death while your friend with the granny gear MT idles down at 2mph clucking and shaking\ his head saying "poor foolish slushbox owner..." :) The only fix to downhill control on a slushbox is lower lo range and/or lower stall speed converter. 2.62 does ok for most hills but the steeper ones require brakes. Not a good thing. If price was no object, the ultimate configuration is an AT, crawler box with 4:1 lo-range mated to a tcase with > 2:1 low range. You get the best of ALL worlds and effectively a 3spd tcase. Michael john wrote: - - mpg? - - off the line performance? (actually starting out might be faster) - - top end? - - rpm on the highway( have 3.31's with 31x10.5s) - - durability? - - trail manners? Of course this is the perennial question of all 4x4dom.... slushbox or gearbox? The pluses and minuses on both sides are all valid... when my starter failed, I could bump start Superdawg and get home... can't do that with a slushbox... anyway, figured since I'm back I'd stir things up a bit. :) john Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1081 **************************