From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Oct 26 20:43:47 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, October 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1083 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Ti -ming' fsj: Idle timing fsj: older quadratrac in memphis fsj: Re: fsj PING fsj: someone help me... Re: [fsj: Do I have a Timing problem and vaccum reading Re: fsj: Re: fsj PING fsj: Re: 65 J200 that starts missing fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... Re: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... fsj: Those Junkyard Pics Re: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... Re: fsj: ideas re PING Re: [1FSJ] Re: fsj: Re: Re: xj: pics of my XJ up! fsj: Re: Re: tranny questions Re: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:12:22 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Ti -ming' Jeepnut. This is really cool. Think of all the places you could put tees, and how many vacuum guages you could have on your dash! The thing that gets me from your descriptions is that vacuum at idle is zero. I'm really surprised. Anyway, back to your question, and this gets really fundamental. So it must be answered with a question. Please correct any of the following, but this is my understanding, which is fairly GM centric. What does a gasoline engine do ? It pumps air. What keeps a gasoline engine from pumping air ? The air intake flap - a.k.a. throttle butterfly flap in the carb. The engine wants to pump more air, but the flap is closed at idle. Air can't get into the engine to be pumped. Only the small amount metered by the idle jets. Is the engine trying to pull more air in ? YES! But will we let it ? NO! Not until we say GO. Because the engine is trying to pull more air, it creates vacuum. The more you open the throttle, especially in transition, the less the engine wants to pull in more air, so at full throttle and full rpm, and less air drag, there is less vacuum. Advance is a function of 3 inputs - Initial crankshaft timing, Vacuum advance via canister, and mechanical advance via the centrifugal distributor weights vs. springs that you played with a couple weeks ago. Hot Rod did a good article on this, but probably 15 years ago. Mebbe I could copy it, maybe I could find it ? Anyway, as you can see, you have good vacuum at low rpm, that will translate into vacuum advance. This vacuum goes away at higher rpm (usually around 2200+), and you're dependent on mechanical advance. So initial timing is a static value. Vacuum advance is high at low rpm and decreases with rpm, probably dramatically between 1500 and 2200, and mechanical advance goes up with velocity. I think you've got the lower gears, which help maintain high vacuum levels (high rpm w/ low throttle opening) A quick fix to try, if you're getting pinging at low rpm (just following upshifts or throttle 'tip-in') is to use a brazing rod and propane torch to add some 'meat' in the channel of the vacuum advance that will limit the vacuum advance rod travel. The idea is that you've got too much vacuum advance at low rpm where you have high vacuum. If there are 'stops' to a lever that actuates vacuum advance, consider a way to limit that travel. So what kind of laptop do I need to see vacuum and total advance at the same time ? - - Landon - -=---------------------------------------------------- I THINK all is normal, but it works backward from what I thought. So since my thinking is reversed MOST of the time, I guess that makes it about right. What I see is this: 17-18 psi at cold start, high idle This drops to 11-12 lbs as I kick the idle down to lower step, As we get down to 600 curb idle, the vac shows about 7-8 lbs. Then as the CTO valve reaches some hotter temp, you see the plunger start to move, the vac drops down then from 7-8lbs to 0 and it stays at 0 at idle. Then with a warm running wag, vac pulls up from 0, into drive, and starting down the driveway, the vac varies with the throttle to as high as 17 lbs as I am pulling up the drive, then as I accelerate from 0-45 over an 1/8 mile or more the vac pulls down to 8-10 lbs. If I give it say 3/4 throttle or better, I can get the vac down to about 3-5 lbs max. But then as I ease up on the throttle and level off, the vac works back up quickly from 5 to 12-13 lbs and we're cruisin'. Runs 12-13 lbs vac on a flat open 45-50 cruise, and it runs up to about 17-18 lbs as I just barely ease up on the throttle at 45-50 mph. Then Off the throttle to slow for a stop, and the vac drops to 0 immediately. Funny, but I though I would see the vac gauge pull MORE vacumn when I push on the accelerator. But it goes DOWN to as low as 3-5 lbs at a floored throttle from a 20 mph roll. Shouldn't the vac advance be getting MORE vac at throttle? So my timing ADVANCES? How can it when the vac is LESS? Thanks for your ideas. Many more days of vacumn monitoring to come... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:20:20 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Idle timing Hi, may have answered my own question with that last post. Why is the vacuum zero at idle ? I'm guessing this is the difference between 'port' and 'manifold' vacuum. Manifold vacuum at idle will be high, but the air available to the engine is coming through the idle jet, not through the 'port' that is part of the run carb circuit. When we transition to the run circuit by opening the throttle, we create vacuum in the port .... right ? - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:52:16 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: older quadratrac in memphis http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=478922436&r=0&t=0 hey jeepnut, if anyone on the list needs a Borg warner maybe you can check this out for them... I almost bid before I realized I would need a New Process (219). :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:08:33 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: fsj PING I thought you could get the kit from the dealer... expen$ive... about $90 As i said before, the chain should not affect the pinging... what about retarding a little more.... but may be your timing marks are off.... just like mine were and i had to overadvance to prevent the muffler from cooking the carpet, you may have to retard a little more. The harmonic balancer is connect with a big rubber donut to the cranshaft pulley after all! Cheers Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:19:40 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: someone help me... buy this manual before I do... I already have one... ;) I'm outta control... I've been snapping up little tonka FSJ things like they're popcorn... I may start doing it to manuals again... ;) Actually, my 76 manual is a photocopy. And what's even funnier is that I rarely use a shop manual any more... :) john http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=479007246&r=0&t=0 - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:32:38 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: Re: [fsj: Do I have a Timing problem and vaccum reading These values are right as after warm up you have ported vaccum... nothing at idle and higher values at steady higher rpm than idle. the cold high idle is a bit lower than mine which is 22 on the 74 wag, but matches the 84 Gwag... different carb... diff switches. Pinging can be caused by excess carbon deposits.... overdry air... may be you can try water injection... just like WWII fighters! Cheers Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:33:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fsj PING A: Good point about the balancer slipping and showing incorrect degrees (which is why I only set timing by ear), but if: 1) Your EGR isn't plugged, the diaphram works and is hooked up direct to the correct port; 2) The motor timing is retarded to the point it no longer has power; 3) The heads have never been shaved or had anything done to raise compression; 4) The dist curve is correct; 5) Colder range spark plugs don't help lower ping; 6) The carb is running with proper fuel mix; then timing synchronization of the cam shaft to crank through the timing chain is the only thing left to play with. (unless your motor was built for premium gas in the first place!) I have degree'd factory cams on then BRAND NEW Chevs, Fords, Dodges and others (early '80s), and found up to 10 degrees wrong synch in almost every motor that ran poorly. (we got a lot of dealer service referrals when they couldn't track the problem. It got to the point I could swap a chev chain and gears in vehicle in 3 hours with no leaks!) Michel wrote: I thought you could get the kit from the dealer... expen$ive... about $90 As i said before, the chain should not affect the pinging... what about retarding a little more.... but may be your timing marks are off.... just like mine were and i had to overadvance to prevent the muffler from cooking the carpet, you may have to retard a little more. The harmonic balancer is connect with a big rubber donut to the cranshaft pulley after all! Cheers Michel 74 wag ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:48:58 GMT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: 65 J200 that starts missing >>>>65 J200, w/ the original 230 Tornado. I would like to know if there are >>>>any of you that know that engine well. Mine runs great up to 55 mph, >>>>then starts missing My best guess check the centrifugal advance of the distributor and how is the timing moving with rpm... Just pull cap and make sure nothing binds.... or is too loose, and use your timing light to see any fluctuations with rpm.... which you could later tape on the hood and see it you start missing at high speed The sparks could be weak, how much voltage do you measure at the coil.... i had about less than 7 volts... but it did not misfire.... Points are a drag.... even if i loved the easyness of tune up.... started to have poor quality ones... i went to the Pertronix ignitor ($70, and you can keep the points in the toolbox.. in case, it is a 1hr install to adjust the clearances) and gained a few mpg, and it idle and start very nice hot or cold. Cheers Good find Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... I just spent my lunch hour at Fred Fitzgeralds house...Brad Seevers was there too. We were looking at old FSJ parts that he is liquadating... But, Fred made reference to his 'new' tow vehicle...well, he's got it, and WOW, is it COOL!!! The '73 Uni-Mog...nicknamed Stu-big, for Stupidily Big...that pretty much describes it. He got the double-cab, 3 ton, diesel, ex-German-boarder patrol version. It weighs 7200lbs empty. It's got 50 inch tires on a 114 wheel base, with no frame or body overhang... Factory air lockers front and rear....25 inch clearance at the pumpkins. Factory snorkel at the top of the cab...which is ~8-9 feet up there... PTO front and rear. Water heater (for before you start it in artic climates). This thing is just tough!!! Now, if I can just get my wife to let me have one... Greg '79 Wag, the Ghost '93 BMW 325ic (E30) '99 Volvo V70 <- The Baby Hauler...coming in 6 months :) Unimog??? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:19:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... there is a 42' IH 6x6 in the local paper ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** Received: from smtpin-101-6.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.40) by storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by smtpin-101-6.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) id 6235AF8; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: carnuck-at-webtv.net Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (krusty1.krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by smtpin-101-6.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D60157 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 3.15 #4) id 13ov5X-0004Oc-00 for fsj-out-at-digest.net; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:01:31 -0400 Message-ID: <20001026220124.29260.qmail-at-web123.yahoomail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... To: fsj-at-digest.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Greg Loxtercamp I just spent my lunch hour at Fred Fitzgeralds house...Brad Seevers was there too. We were looking at old FSJ parts that he is liquadating... But, Fred made reference to his 'new' tow vehicle...well, he's got it, and WOW, is it COOL!!! The '73 Uni-Mog...nicknamed Stu-big, for Stupidily Big...that pretty much describes it. He got the double-cab, 3 ton, diesel, ex-German-boarder patrol version. It weighs 7200lbs empty. It's got 50 inch tires on a 114 wheel base, with no frame or body overhang... Factory air lockers front and rear....25 inch clearance at the pumpkins. Factory snorkel at the top of the cab...which is ~8-9 feet up there... PTO front and rear. Water heater (for before you start it in artic climates). This thing is just tough!!! Now, if I can just get my wife to let me have one... Greg '79 Wag, the Ghost '93 BMW 325ic (E30) '99 Volvo V70 <- The Baby Hauler...coming in 6 months :) Unimog??? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:33:11 EDT From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Those Junkyard Pics Just FYI. I put up an URL yesterday morning (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1173071&a=8636082) for the pics I took at a couple of junyards here in Northern Cali. Just over 975 hits in 24 hours - You all are as sick as I am!! LOL. I love junkyards (and pics of junkyards too). Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:30:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... I meant to say 114 inch wheel base. This thing is same length or shorter than a Wagoneer...but twice as high and 10 times as stout! What would a 42'(foot or year?) IH 6x6 look like? G - --- James Blair wrote: > there is a 42' IH 6x6 in the local paper > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:01:24 -0700 (PDT) > From: Greg Loxtercamp > Subject: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that > thing... > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Reply-to: Greg Loxtercamp > > I just spent my lunch hour at Fred Fitzgeralds > house...Brad Seevers was there too. We were looking > at old FSJ parts that he is liquadating... > > But, Fred made reference to his 'new' tow > vehicle...well, he's got it, and WOW, is it COOL!!! > > The '73 Uni-Mog...nicknamed Stu-big, for Stupidily > Big...that pretty much describes it. He got the > double-cab, 3 ton, diesel, ex-German-boarder patrol > version. It weighs 7200lbs empty. It's got 50 inch > tires on a 114 wheel base, with no frame or body > overhang... Factory air lockers front and > rear....25 > inch clearance at the pumpkins. Factory snorkel at > the top of the cab...which is ~8-9 feet up there... > PTO front and rear. Water heater (for before you > start it in artic climates). This thing is just > tough!!! > > Now, if I can just get my wife to let me have one... > > Greg > '79 Wag, the Ghost > '93 BMW 325ic (E30) > '99 Volvo V70 <- The Baby Hauler...coming in 6 > months > :) > Unimog??? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:15:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: ideas re PING A: I just finished re-installing the trans in my van (used to be 1.5 hours to swap in and out, now 2 hours just to put in! I'm getting too old for this stuff! Mind you, I did it one armed!) Now, the EGR puts exhaust gas back in, because it is inert (already burnt, very little O2 left in it) so that the burning in the cylinders is slowed down and combustion temperature is kept down to lower the NOx (Nitrous Oxides. Yes the same stuff racers add to INCREASE the flame speed, but the have much higher octane fuel!) Too high of combustion NOx creates ignition knocks (or ping, which is short for pre-ignition) Yes, your pistons can collapse from too much knocking (Like RJs and my '66 Pontiac with Chev 307 {Cdn edition stock} that I thought had loose valves. That was when I learned the hard way! ) In the meantime, retard your timing more by disconnecting the vac advance when the motor is warm. Just a nasty thought here, but w/o hearing the actual noise, I have to ask: Do you hear it at part throttle, but not full throttle? If so, then this is the right thing to check out. Jeep nut wrote: Hi all,         I was doing some reading tonight and stumbled on a paragraph which says that a badly leaking exhaust system can cause ping as the backpressure is too low to let the EGR system work properly and this can cause ping....         As I am nearly always gnawing on the bone moneywise, the last time my muffler rotted off, it got a $30 exhaust job and well, that means past the head pipe, just a glaspak and a 2.5" short pipe.         So I suppose you don't get much less backpressure than that.   Any opinions about whether this could cause some ping problems like I've been having lately?         It seems odd, maybe someone can explain...   I seem to hear folks talking about 2.5 and 3" pipe with these "flowmaster" "super-free-flowing" blah, blah, so.... do those running these super open exhausts trade this for ping? Obviously not, so what piece of the puzzle am I missing to understand this?         I did some homework and think I understand right that under heavy throttle with the engine warm, the EGR opens to let exhaust gases back into the burn path, right?         Can someone explain why that keeps preignition at bay?   Sorry to be so "technical" but I really gotta get this stopped or my pistons could be toast if I understand THAT correctly....   Thanks everyone!                 JeepNut - -- ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:59:48 -0400 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: Re: [1FSJ] Re: fsj: Re: Re: xj: pics of my XJ up! > you need a proofreader... ;) or a real computer so you can > see exactly what you're mailing... How's the Linux project going? :) If he needs a real computer, why is he messing with that off-brand linux thingie? Ray Drouillard (ducking and hiding) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:02:53 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: tranny questions At 10:19 PM 10/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > >Yah... go put that slush box in your truck! > > >How much for the 5 speed? > > >Ray > > > In the back of my mind a little voice said as I posted that question, > > "you'll hear from Ray"... :) > >I'm so glad that I didn't disappoint you :-} >So... when are you going to do it? My 727's days are numbered :-( >Ray My current plans are to get the driver's side rear wheel back on... :) It's been off for almost a month now. I'm almost done with the auxillary tank install and need to install the 2" blocks in the rear. After that amazing technical feat, I hope to have some concrete poured, and Superdawg painted. Once I get those two big projects done I may obtain a slushbox to mate to the xfr case I have coming. I think at this point I will put all the assembled components in a safe place and wait for the clutch or the T5 to go. Or, if after driving it a lot I get tired of shifting I may install the automatic. However, my current thought is to hold onto the t5/np208 combination. Without a decent shop I'm holding off on doing any major projects. But I really am thinking about the entire driveline. The 258 seems to be spitting up oil into the air cleaner, very common problem for the 258 and I can't remember what I need to do to fix it. :) I remember both John Bushnell and Jim Blair offering some tips... John's suggestion involved more work than I cared to deal with. :) I think it would be easier to swap the engine than to remove that valve cover and drill holes... ;) Jim had some ideas on running a longer breather hose with a diffuser (i.e. a can) to collect the oil and return it to the engine.... Both john and jim were solving the same problem, john's solution was much more elegant, but more involved. Jim's idea may be the easiest to implement... Anyway, I ended up being sick all day with some bug that's just whipping me. I spent the entire day in bed, except for checking email at lunch and going to the chiropractor and dinner this evening... I'm sitting here at 8pm ready to fall face forward on the keyboard. :) Gotta hold out for a couple hours, if I got to bed now I'll wake up at 10pm and be up all night... :) later, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:09:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: OH...MY...GOD...the size of that thing... The ad said 42' but it could be '42 I suppose. (Remember I had a 42' '65 GMC bus before!) Greg wrote: I meant to say 114 inch wheel base. This thing is same length or shorter than a Wagoneer...but twice as high and 10 times as stout! What would a 42'(foot or year?) IH 6x6 look like? G - --- James Blair wrote: there is a 42' IH 6x6 in the local paper ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1083 **************************