From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Nov 9 11:13:22 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, November 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1098 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? fsj: safety ratings and rollovers fsj: cherokee crash data Re: fsj: What...I'm the Ebay FSJ harbinger now? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? fsj: Re: FSJ Track widths Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: Re: FSJ Track widths Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? fsj: Re: vacuum gauges... fsj: Re: More fear mongering! fsj: RE: safety ratings and rollovers Re: [fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph???] Re: [fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph???] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:54:21 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? I'm confused. with 31x10.5's, 3.31 gears and a 29 tooth speedo gear (with T-5 tranny), I had the odometer within a few percent. The speedo itself was of by 5mph. As confirmed by John B's GPS and the speedo shop in seattle. So now, I drop down to P235's, and driving through Everett with one of those courtesy speed info setups I'm doing 3mph over the indicated speed. IF I do 25 it reads 28, if I do 30 it reads 33, if I do 35 it reads 38. And, no, it's not a photo radar setup, because the speed limit was 30 and I didn't see any flashes... ;) So, the math question for the evening, HOW MUCH OFF IS MY ODOMETER NOW? thanx, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:57:07 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: safety ratings and rollovers I read the article that someone posted to one of the lists dealing with ( http://www.msnbc.com/news/480570.asp ) SUV's and the problem of rollover. So I started surfing the statistics they referenced. :) Found this page to be interesting, especially for the Jeeps and the Mercedes. http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_util.htm In one of the articles it was kind of distressing to see the 5 star rating for roll-overs they tried to institute. What gets me is they were giving a good rating to a few cars I've seen upside down in the ditches around here! :) I don't think it was accurate enough as they lumped the Jeep Cherokee in with Toyota 4runners! The center of gravity is vastly different, as is the track and stability. The Jeep SJs, XJs, MJs, ZJs and WJs historically have had a lower center of gravity than comparable vehicles. The ML series Mercedes also has been tested by automotive writers and compared to the E class sedans for handling. I'd say that the Mercedes ML is even more stable than the Jeeps. Of course the ML isn't going to go the same places off road as a Jeep... (and I'm still looking forward to the opportunity to be proven wrong. :) (and waiting for mercedes to sell one with a Diesel stateside. ;) I've been driving XJ's for over 10 years, they are very stable compared to other 4x4's. I've driven mine hard and never felt even close to tipping or rolling it... I think the solid axles make a big difference, that and the uniframe construction. I've had guys try to follow me through some corners in explorers, nissans and toyotas before... I was frightened for them... I'm pretty sure I saw the inside wheel start to lift on one explorer... the guy slowed down real quick, but it shook me up... Not because of what my rig did, but what almost happened behind me! I have seen a number of XJ's in the salvage yards that look like they've endo'd, and more than a few that have been rolled. :( With the 4.0L in these things someone can get in over their head rather quickly... driver skill and how smooth a rig is driven at the edge makes a lot of difference... I've heard of a few guys "tipping" their xj's over off-road. But usually these guys had their rigs set up with lots of lift, big tires and were either goofing around or just plain made a mistake on an approach to a tight obstable... ( http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/GoneTurtle/ ) (I'm thinking of one guy that rolled his back east on a dirt road, got it sideways and flop... and then there was another guy up in the snow, someone pulled him sideways and flop... but otherwise, I don't know of other XJ or FSJ rollovers... oh wait, I did see one web page where a guy rolled his J10... he was racing off-road and cut too hard to the left on a landing... plop... ) Rollover accidents are not fun. I lost my favorite brother in law in one a few years ago... if only he'd been wearing his seatbelt... :( what a driver does in the few seconds after a tire blows or something goes wrong makes all the difference... y'all keep the greasy side down, ya hear? later, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:03:15 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: cherokee crash data http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/small_suvs/cherokee.htm - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:10:32 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: What...I'm the Ebay FSJ harbinger now? A: You had me going for a second! I thought it was a tailgate on EBay! Mike wrote: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=492926193&r=0&t=0 ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:13:18 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? A: I think your needle is off by 3 if it's across the range. John wrote: I'm confused. with 31x10.5's, 3.31 gears and a 29 tooth speedo gear (with T-5 tranny), I had the odometer within a few percent. The speedo itself was of by 5mph. As confirmed by John B's GPS and the speedo shop in seattle. So now, I drop down to P235's, and driving through Everett with one of those courtesy speed info setups I'm doing 3mph over the indicated speed. IF I do 25 it reads 28, if I do 30 it reads 33, if I do 35 it reads 38. And, no, it's not a photo radar setup, because the speed limit was 30 and I didn't see any flashes... ;) So, the math question for the evening, HOW MUCH OFF IS MY ODOMETER NOW? thanx, john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:13:31 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? At 10:13 PM 11/8/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: I think your needle is off by 3 if it's across the range. yes... that was determined... by GPS and the speedo shop... I thought I said that... maybe I wasn't clear enough... Anyway, yes the speedo was off by 5mph. Now it's off by 3mph and I'm confused. How can it be off exactly 5mph no matter what speedo gear I used at the shop on the rollers, and now, change the tire size and I'm off 3mph??? If the speedo head was off by 5mph before, why not now? Unless my total speed dropped due to the tire size so I'm actually "registering" 2mph slower than I was before... Now I'm even more confuse... ;) But yes, my speedometer is wrong, odometer was correct... (the guy suggested I take the speedo unit apart and move the indicator 5mph... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:40:56 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: FSJ Track widths I haven't had time to respond... sorry... I don't have the data on my website because I'm going to use a lot of what I've researched in the book that I've been working on. Here's a few specs, front tread only: 1976 Cherokees - (59.2, cherokee S 59.9, cherokee chief 65.4) 1976 Wagoneer - 59.4" 1976 J10 - 63.3" or 64.6" (disc brake model) 1985 xj Cherokee - 58" 1985 Grand Wagoneer - 59.4" 1985 J10 - 63.3" (wide wheel option 64.6") hope this helps... I realized you asked for track, not tread, but I don't have that level of detail readily available. john At 08:46 AM 11/8/00 -0600, David Windle wrote: >Hi John, > >I have a questions about axle and track widths, and I cannot think of anyone >else who can get this correct without some research. > >I've been all over your web site and didn't find the answer to this, so here >goes. > >I have three XJ's (two Wagoneers & a parts truck Cherokee), with a track >width (7" rims) of 58" and an axle width of approximately 60.25". It is my >understanding that the FSJ Wagoneer (and I assume the narrow track FSJ >Cherokee) axles are 1/16" to 1/8" wider when measured from wheel mounting >surface to wheel mounting surface. I'm not searching for finite exactness >on the measurements, but can you confirm this? > >The full size pickups (J10, J20, etc., etc.) are "about" 66" for the same >measurement, which is very close to the other full size pickups from Ford, >GM, etc. > >If you agree (more or less) with the above, is the wide track FSJ Cherokee a >third size that falls somewhere in between, or is it basically the same >width as a J10? If it's in between, do you have any clue (or guess) how >wide these axles are? > >Thanks very much. > >David A. Windle >Houston, TX - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:48:40 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? no, I know about the percentage change of because of the tire change, but the speedo error was a fixed 5mph off, no matter what speedo gear I used... The odometer would vary widely on the test rollers when we changed the gearing, but the error in the speedo was consistently 5 miles per hour off... so that's why I'm confused, maybe my speedo is reading 2mph actual less, so it only looks like 5mph off... ;) Let's see if I can explain this again. BEFORE (with 31" tires). ACTUAL ground speed: 30 mph 40 mph 50 mph INDICATED speedo reading: 25 mph 35 mph 45 mph Now with 235's: INDICATED SPEED ON RADAR SCREEN: 28 mph 33 mph 38 mph Indicated speedo reading: 25 mph 30 mph 35 mph I lowered my overall gearing by around 6% by changing down two tires sizes, each tire size is around a 3% delta... So, now do y'all see my confusion??? And I haven't even started to think about the odometer error at this point... ;) john At 01:31 AM 11/9/00 -0500, David Charles Gedraitis wrote: >If the speedo was off by 5 mph before and not now it is because it only >measures driveshaft speed, it doesn't actually care how fast you are >moving. The change in tire size changed your rear-end ratio (for all >intents and purposes it did), thus your driveshaft speed is different for >the same rpms, and you have a different percent error. > >~dave > >'67 Kaiser M-715 >'61 Chrysler Newport - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:00:55 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: FSJ Track widths A: The NT Chero and Wag FSJ are nearly the same width (I think Paul W measured them and posted it awhile back) The front axle on a WT Chero is the same as a J10, but the WT Chero rear axle is 1/2 way between NT and J10. I have a FREE FSJ NT front axle housing only is someone wants it (I just have to pull my gears) Or for $50 you can have the 2.72s from my '84 J10 with it. John wrote: I haven't had time to respond... sorry... I don't have the data on my website because I'm going to use a lot of what I've researched in the book that I've been working on. Here's a few specs, front tread only: 1976 Cherokees - (59.2, cherokee S 59.9, cherokee chief 65.4) 1976 Wagoneer - 59.4" 1976 J10 - 63.3" or 64.6" (disc brake model) 1985 xj Cherokee - 58" 1985 Grand Wagoneer - 59.4" 1985 J10 - 63.3" (wide wheel option 64.6") hope this helps... I realized you asked for track, not tread, but I don't have that level of detail readily available. john At 08:46 AM 11/8/00 -0600, David Windle wrote: Hi John, I have a questions about axle and track widths, and I cannot think of anyone else who can get this correct without some research. I've been all over your web site and didn't find the answer to this, so here goes. I have three XJ's (two Wagoneers & a parts truck Cherokee), with a track width (7" rims) of 58" and an axle width of approximately 60.25". It is my understanding that the FSJ Wagoneer (and I assume the narrow track FSJ Cherokee) axles are 1/16" to 1/8" wider when measured from wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface. I'm not searching for finite exactness on the measurements, but can you confirm this? The full size pickups (J10, J20, etc., etc.) are "about" 66" for the same measurement, which is very close to the other full size pickups from Ford, GM, etc. If you agree (more or less) with the above, is the wide track FSJ Cherokee a third size that falls somewhere in between, or is it basically the same width as a J10? If it's in between, do you have any clue (or guess) how wide these axles are? Thanks very much. David A. Windle Houston, TX ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:07:17 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? A: That's what I would do too! If it was a variable ratio, ie: 10%, then it would be a drive gear replacement thing. I wrote: I think your needle is off by 3 if it's across the range. yes... that was determined... by GPS and the speedo shop... I thought I said that... maybe I wasn't clear enough... Anyway, yes the speedo was off by 5mph. Now it's off by 3mph and I'm confused. How can it be off exactly 5mph no matter what speedo gear I used at the shop on the rollers, and now, change the tire size and I'm off 3mph??? If the speedo head was off by 5mph before, why not now? Unless my total speed dropped due to the tire size so I'm actually "registering" 2mph slower than I was before... Now I'm even more confuse... ;) But yes, my speedometer is wrong, odometer was correct... (the guy suggested I take the speedo unit apart and move the indicator 5mph... :) john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:17:51 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? A: Sounds like you need to go down 2 more tire sizes to me! John wrote: no, I know about the percentage change of because of the tire change, but the speedo error was a fixed 5mph off, no matter what speedo gear I used... The odometer would vary widely on the test rollers when we changed the gearing, but the error in the speedo was consistently 5 miles per hour off... so that's why I'm confused, maybe my speedo is reading 2mph actual less, so it only looks like 5mph off... ;) Let's see if I can explain this again. BEFORE (with 31" tires).     ACTUAL ground speed:   30 mph   40 mph   50 mph INDICATED speedo reading: 25 mph 35 mph   45 mph Now with 235's:         INDICATED SPEED ON RADAR SCREEN:   28 mph   33 mph 38 mph     Indicated speedo reading:       25 mph     30 mph 35 mph I lowered my overall gearing by around 6% by changing down two tires sizes, each tire size is around a 3% delta... So, now do y'all see my confusion??? And I haven't even started to think about the odometer error at this point... ;) john At 01:31 AM 11/9/00 -0500, David Charles Gedraitis wrote: If the speedo was off by 5 mph before and not now it is because it only measures driveshaft speed, it doesn't actually care how fast you are moving. The change in tire size changed your rear-end ratio (for all intents and purposes it did), thus your driveshaft speed is different for the same rpms, and you have a different percent error. ~dave '67 Kaiser M-715 '61 Chrysler Newport ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:35:42 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: vacuum gauges... I've got tach, vacum, and tranny temp on the column. Engine temp, oil pressure, and voltmeter are in the ashtray holes. Someday when I'm done with A/C installation I can have my glovebox back. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco > Date: 8 Nov 00 11:08:23 MST > From: Michael Shimniok (snip) > My big problem is a > lack of convenient place to mount 'em. The 86+ glovebox door > doesn't lend itself to mounting gauges like the nice flat 85-. > I've got a stack of radios on the tranny hump which I may have > to rethink or move so I can put gauges there. No other reasonable > unobstructed location other than on top of the dash which I'd hate > to hack up. I could replace the heater controls and stereo with > gauges, but then where would they go? Hm... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:45:06 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: More fear mongering! > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:12:04 -0800 (PST) > From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) > > A: I wish I could let these clowns know it's not just the height of the > center of gravity that matters, but the width has LOTS to do with it! > http://www.msnbc.com/news/480570.asp You can! At the bottom of the page is a link that says "write us". The real problem is one they've pointed out themselves many times (in the article). SUVs are not cars. If people drive them like cars they will wreck. It's simple. SUVs are not cars. I once wrote to one of the networks after they aired a story advising confiscation of crayons so children won't get lung cancer from the asbestos they purportedly contain. I basically told them they were idiots. For some reason they never responded. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 08:25:23 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: RE: safety ratings and rollovers rofl... At 05:48 AM 11/9/00 -0800, Alec.Cordova-at-quintus.com wrote: > > http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_util.htm > > > >I browsed the listings there. Very interesting. Separate >insurance-claim-based ratings for Injury, Collision, and Theft for various >vehicles. All numbers normalized, so a score of 100 is average, higher >numbers worse, lower numbers better. In the Theft category, you see the >current infatuation with SUV's. Very few even slightly better than >statistical average. >But wait. What's this? A Theft rating of only 29. Good security systems? >Factory-supplied vehicle recovery system? Nope. It's a Subaru Forester. Nuff >said. >Alec - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 00 11:46:42 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph???] The speedo was originally off by how many percent? 5mph doesn't mean much unless you provide a speed to go with it. Naturally a 5mph error at 5mph (actual) is a higher error than reading 5mph off at 100mph (actual). I doubt the speedo and odo share the exact same error. Your odo will probably now have exactly the error you predict. Let us know... I don't know why the speedo is a surprise but I'm sure there's an explanation. Just need more info. Michael john wrote: > with 31x10.5's, 3.31 gears and a 29 tooth speedo gear (with T-5 tranny), > I had the odometer within a few percent. The speedo itself was of > by 5mph. As confirmed by John B's GPS and the speedo shop in seattle. > > So now, I drop down to P235's, and driving through Everett with one > of those courtesy speed info setups I'm doing 3mph over the indicated > speed. IF I do 25 it reads 28, if I do 30 it reads 33, if I do 35 it > reads 38. And, no, it's not a photo radar setup, because the speed limit > was 30 and I didn't see any flashes... ;) > > So, the math question for the evening, HOW MUCH OFF IS MY ODOMETER NOW? > > thanx, > john > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:58:04 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: [fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph???] A: The speedo doesn't matter into the equation, as long as the odo is correct. The needle will point wherever it was set to (I forget the ratio now, but it climbs at the square of the RPM of the cable) If the needle wasn't placed correctly on the shaft then the speedo will be off, but the odo will be correct. Even though they run near each other off the same cable, they are independent. The odo is gear driven and the speedo is a spinning magnetic coupler that drives the needle and as I said, it climbs in relation to RPM, not by gearing. Michael Shimniok wrote: The speedo was originally off by how many percent? 5mph doesn't mean much unless you provide a speed to go with it. Naturally a 5mph error at 5mph (actual) is a higher error than reading 5mph off at 100mph (actual). I doubt the speedo and odo share the exact same error. Your odo will probably now have exactly the error you predict. Let us know... I don't know why the speedo is a surprise but I'm sure there's an explanation. Just need more info. Michael john wrote: with 31x10.5's, 3.31 gears and a 29 tooth speedo gear (with T-5 tranny), I had the odometer within a few percent. The speedo itself was of by 5mph. As confirmed by John B's GPS and the speedo shop in seattle. So now, I drop down to P235's, and driving through Everett with one of those courtesy speed info setups I'm doing 3mph over the indicated speed. IF I do 25 it reads 28, if I do 30 it reads 33, if I do 35 it reads 38. And, no, it's not a photo radar setup, because the speed limit was 30 and I didn't see any flashes... ;) So, the math question for the evening, HOW MUCH OFF IS MY ODOMETER NOW? thanx, john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1098 **************************