From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Nov 25 10:24:03 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, November 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1114 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: xj: Re: Vigilante Justice fsj: Paul K's GW Re: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project fsj: Junkyard Wars fsj: One more brainstorm Re: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project fsj: good stuff FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:16:39 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Re: Vigilante Justice A: I am including the AMC-list on this, in case I get it wrong. The 327 is a Gen 1 American Motors V8, BUT the design is originally Nash, and was used in Ramblers, Nashes and Jeeps, before AMC became 1 company. The head design restricted air flow, which restricted bore size, so Gen 2 came about (290, 343 and one other I think 390, but it's a different block), Gen 3 (approx 1970) came about the time of AMC's joint force. The 290 and 343 gained block height and became 304, 360, and the 390 became a 401, but with a stronger block casting. Check out http://www.amxfiles.com and (I think) http://www.turboforce.com for more info. XJ related: The 6 cyls also got a taller deck in '70, which is what the 4.0L was built from by tweaking a 4.2L motor. john At 08:42 PM 11/24/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: John, IRT our little discussion today on who built the 327 Vigilante used in mid-60's SJ's... It's a little slow at work tonite (but hey, the 3x pay is GREAT!), so I was trying to see what I could come up with in the way of an authoratative source - one that YOU would agree with - and the search engines came up with this link (and a few others) when queried with "vigilante+327" and "AMC+327":         http://www.wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/trivia.html Look familiar? ;^D Yahoo's search also provided this bit of info along with link: "...return to john's home page AJWT #32: The Dauntless 350 cu in V-8 supplied by Buick. It replaced the AMC 327 Vigilante V-8. click here for next question..." Clicking on the link takes you to the whole darn quiz, but here's why the search engine gave the link: The complete Q&A from YOUR quiz: "JWTQ #32: What engine was introduced in 1969? What did it replace?" "AJWT #32: The Dauntless 350 cu in V-8 supplied by Buick. It replaced           the AMC 327 Vigilante V-8." ROTFLMAO! Acording to SJ Guru John Meister, the Vigilante 327 _IS_ an AMC motor like I said, not a Kaiser creation... as cameraman John Meister said today at the Jeepfest. :^D FWIW, The Jeeptech.com page on the 327 says it's an AMC motor, too: http://www.jeeptech.com/engine/ and/or             http://www.jeeptech.com/engine/amc327.html As does this source:                   http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/reference/Engines/ Paul (Neener, neener, neener, told you so!) ;^P~~ (I rest my case :) ______________________________________________ ur 2 funny... :) Using my own words against my feeble memory. ;) First off, the last URL you provide, jjournal, has some errors, the Buick 350 is referred to as the Dauntless, the Vigilante was the 327. :) What I understand is that the 327 came from Kaiser by way of Nash if I have my story straight... so calling it an AMC is fine by me... I believe that the Vigilante is also known not only as a Kaiser, but as Nash and as a Rambler... as well as an AMC. To me it just seems better to say it's a Kaiser, but saying it's an American Motors Corp engine is ok too... (obviously. ;) One thing for certain, it's not a Chevy 327. ;) Officially, Jeep came into the AMC fold on Feb 5, 1970. AMC acquired Kaiser Jeep for $70 million and changed the name to Jeep Corp. Remeber too that Willys is the company that officially started the big Jeeps. :) It wasn't until March 1963 that Willys Motors became known as Kaiser Jeep Corp. On page 87 of the original (read old and dirty from the '60's) Factory service manual it refers to it as a 'JEEP' V-8 Vigilante. In the front of the manual it says Kaiser Corp. It also mentions a tag with the letters KJC, aka, Kaiser Jeep Corp. However, in a later supplemented manual that includes the Dauntless (the Buick 350) it just refers to it as the Dauntless and makes no mention of the source... So the manuals really can't resolve the source issue... :( According to my AMC book, in 1959 the Ambassador had a 327 cid. While it has the same bore/stroke, it has a higher compression ratio and 20 more hp than the Vigilante... also, what's odd is the AMC book says it has 5 main bearings??? how does that work on a V8??? book is probably wrong. But, this does support the AMC/Rambler connection. Also, the peak horsepower for both engines is at 4,700 rpm. We've had this discussion on the FSJ list a few times. If memory serves me correctly, which it probably doesn't. ;) It was determined that you could call this engine a Nash, a Rambler, a Kaiser or an AMC... there was a lot of inbreeding going on during this time... ;) I'm not 100% clear on how all this worked out either. I wish I'd been paying more attention to what was going on in the car world when I was back in school... ;) grade school that is... ;) So, is this you way of getting back at me because of the pizza picture? rofl... I'd like to get some definitive and authoritative information on the history of the Vigilante. What I remember reading again said that Kaiser had acquired the engines from Nash, which would have been AMC, right? The engine has limitations based on the valve configuration and is limited to 327 Cubes. Thanx Paul for raising this issue... hopefully a few people heard something they hadn't heard before. john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:31:57 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Paul K's GW After Pizza Paul wandered back over to work on his spare tire carrier... of course I had my camera handy... I'd just emptied it... ;) I couldn't read his data plate on his xfr case... but what I wanted to know came out in the picture! It's a 229. ;) http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/Pauls-84GW/November24-2000/ http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/Pauls-84GW john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:22:28 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project A: On Elmo, I took the 3 lines off the heat and defog switch, and joined them with a plastic tee. That way I got a clear window w/o freezing my feet off, and vice versa! Ken, With respect to your problem with the heater controls, I had a similar problem: my defroster worked but the "Heater" control would not let me switch into that mode. The "temperature" slider works fine. Now, I am not sure if you have the same controls as I have in my '84 GW, but if you have a fan switch at the top left of you instrument panel and three chrome buttons labeled "Off," "Heater," and "Def," then it is almost certainly the same. The way the system works is by vacuum control. If you are not getting vacuum to the "center pole" of the switch (activated by the three buttons), then you will be in the defrost mode all the time (I think). If your vacuum valve is frozen, as mine was, the same is true. I had my dash out as I was trying to figure out whether my windshield wiper switch was bad (another problem, on another post...) and I was toodling around with the vacuum valve/switch. The way it works is as follows: The valve is rotary. In the "home" position it is "Off." When rotated to the first stop, the "Heater," the vacuum is switched into the vacuum line that switches the damper to route the air to the heater ducts. If rotated further, it passes the vacuum to the damper to route the air to the defroster ducts. The buttons push on a lever arm that is attached to the valve and when you push the "Heater" button, it pushes the lever to rotate the valve and then locks onto a bar that keeps it in that mode. If you push the "Defrost" button, it rotates and locks the valve farther. Pushing the "Off" button disengages the locking mechanisms from both of the other switches. To make a long story short, my valve was frozen and would not rotate by the operation of the buttons. I turned it by hand and after hearing what was probably the sound of dried-out rubber un-sticking, it seems to work perfectly. If your controls are not like the ones I described above or you have a different problem, then NEVER MIND. Good Luck, pk Ken Gaines wrote: Well, I managed to get the vacuum/emissions system in my '81 Wagoneer restored to its proper working condition...now it's on to the rest of the resurrection of this beautiful hulk. She runs like a top now and I couldn't be any happier with that. It runs as well as my '86 GW ever did (before my now-ex-wife destroyed the entire drive train by putting it in 4x4 at about 65mph on a Virginia interstate...dang woman drivers...) I would like to tell you guys a little about this gem that I found and managed to purchase for $500. Maybe some of you will have some suggestions/advice for my restoration project. Anything that will save me time and/or money would be greatly appreciated. The next step in the process of repairing this Wag is to make it livable while I am driving it. We even get cold weather down here in South Texas (aka Margaritaville). It is rather unpleasant to drive ANY vehicle that is completely missing the back windshield...esp when going about 70mph in 40 deg weather. I can't seem to find a place that sells the glass here in Corpus Christi. I have found a couple of old GW's but I am not sure if those pieces of glass will work. Does anyone know if the rear glass from an '84 GW will interchange with an '81 Wag? The heater controls in this vehicle seem to have frozen themselves up. I am about to go outside and pull the gauges/heater controls out of the dash. I plan to shoot a little WD-40 on them to try and free them up. I hope it works...I also hope that the cable hasn't rusted itself solid in the cable housing. If none of this stuff works, I will probably just use a ziptie to hold the heater core damper open...that is unless anyone has any other ideas on how to fix this since I am almost sure a control panel and cable will be nearly impossible to find. I would also like to try and reinstall the air conditioning system in the vehicle. This part of the country gets REALLY hot in the summer so A/C is not just a luxury, it is an absolute necessity if one wants to drive around in a 6000-pound oven. The engine compartment still has what looks like the hoses and brackets that would have connected a compressor to the receiver/drier and other A/C components. The trick to this is finding the right components to make this work (again?). The A/C components have all been removed...except for the fan/temp controls that are found under the glove box in the truck. These controls don't work either, but I am almost positive that this is a wiring problem that is easily resolved. Does anyone have any suggestions on this part? PLEASEEEEE?????? The only other cosmetic troubles with this truck are the seats...which will soon be reupholstered with Cordura nylon...the carpet which is currently just household shag carpet...the lack of the rear window spoiler, which I do actually have but don't plan to replace until I complete the paint job...and the rusted spots on the roof rack...which will soon be replaced by a safari rack. The interior door panels are pretty badly worn too. I wonder if I could take the panels out of that '84 GW that I found in Corpus Christi and make them work in this truck. As for the interior of the truck....it appears to have been originally done in a baby blue color. I don't find this color scheme particularly appealing. The exterior of the truck is a dark navy blue. I want to redo the interior of the truck in the standard tan color. This should be easy enough to do, albeit a bit on the expensive side. The seats, like I said before, are in a terrible state of neglect and disrepair, but they are structurally intact and can be recovered to original condition. The floor pans are gone as well...I assume they rusted away. The person that I bought the truck from welded some galvanized sheet metal in place. I would like to find some original floor pans, but I guess the galvanized metal will work if I can't find OEM replacements. Secondly...this truck has a little bit of body cancer. The rocker panels are rusted beyond repair. Amazingly enough, this is almost the ONLY rust on the whole truck. There is a little bit of rust on the rear wheel wells as well, but I know that I can get those weld-up panels from JC Whitney. In the salty environment of coastal South Texas, it is amazing that the whole truck isn't a big rolling rusthole. Anyway, I don't like to use fiberglass/Bondo when repairing this section of ANY automotive body...esp a 4x4 that I plan to use as a beach toy. Does JC Whitney carry the rocker panels? By rocker panels, I mean the section of the body that is welded to the floor panels and runs underneath and inside of the doors. As for the paint on the truck...well, it is still intact...very badly oxidized, but intact. The chrome trim around the windows still looks really good. I would guess that I will take it to work (I am in the Navy and work at a maintenance facility) and have it replated in the machine shop there. I have one other point of interest with this truck to share. This vehicle apparently came with a unique AM/FM/CB radio. There is a 4-prong jack for a mike on the passenger side of the dash. The radio is, of course, the old knob-style radio with a selector switch for AM/FM/CB. I havent heard it work yet because all of the speakers in the truck are rotten. The radio itself seems to work...at least it lights up and shows the "FM Stereo" indicator light when I tune it. All in all, I think I got a great deal when I bought this truck for $500...the owner was asking $700. She runs great now thanks to a vac diagram sent to me by one of the list members and the drivetrain is as solid as any of the other FSJ's I have owned and driven. My '81 Wag is a mechanically sound vehicle that will bring me many more years of pleasure and fun. I would really appreciate any comments or suggestions that you guys may have as I undertake this task of restoring this classic Jeep vehicle to her original beauty and glory. Thanks loads and keep on Jeepin'!!!  Ken Gaines  Rockport, TX  jeepguy553-at-yahoo.com  diverdn-at-swbell.net  gainesk-at-strmc.spear.navy.mil Current FSJ: '81 Wagoneer (360 V-8) Former FSJ's:'86 Grand Wagoneer (360 V-8)             '76 Wagoneer LTD (258 I-6)                             '77 Cherokee Chief (360 V-8)                           ('74 CJ-5 with transplanted 360 V-8...just thought I'd throw that one in too) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 07:48:13 EST From: BLW1540-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Junkyard Wars Is anyone else familiar with this British-originated TLC series? They're now taking team applications for next season and it'd be fun to find a group from the FSJ lists, who should have more than a little familiarity with scrounging things in junk yards and their use in ways the designers couldn't have imagined in their worst nightmares. :-) Check out www.junkyard-wars.com for more information. (Is there anyone else in the central Iowa area besides me and Landon who might be crazy enough to try this?) Teams are to be composed of 3 people, to be given a clever name, and you'll have to be ready with a demo tape showing your mechanical aptitude and creativity. (Check the web site for examples.) Bruce Wilson 84 GW Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:00:27 -0600 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: One more brainstorm Ok...time for an opinion poll... Has anyone ever used the Holley ProJection 4dI unit on top of an AMC V-8? I am seriously considering it. Does it improve the fuel economy at all? How about power losses/gains? I have used the Edelbrock Performer (non-EGR) manifold on 2 different AMC engines (304 and 360) and loved the results. I used a CompCams 272/282/.459" (if memory serves me right today) bumpstick on the 360...the power it had was absolutely incredible...I would have estimated it at around 350hp...that's the one I transplanted into the '74 CJ-5. Anyway, if anyone has installed one of these money hogs in an FSJ before, please let me know what kind of results you got. What about any snags or tricks to getting it all hooked up...esp with the emissions system. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project A: Just a quickie reply, but if you check the heat control valve, it's under the hood in '84 (IIRC) and you can manually move it. The defog and floor heat control is missing a blend control. I hooked the 3 lines together with a vacuum tee, and got warm feet and clear window. There are 12V electric seat warmers too! (I had to use them in my '66 VeeDub microbus) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:56:43 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: good stuff I'm passing along Paul's response to our Vigilante discussion. Paul, the one book I didn't check with yesterday was my 50 yr history, from which I built that trivia quiz. :) Remember, it's wrapped in plastic on my shelf... when you pay close to a C-note for a book you don't take it out too often. rofl... the copy you gave me is in one of those piles over there with all my other research. :) Jimmy B's notes on the various Generations (he said Gen 1, etc, and the way he wrote it it almost looked like he was talking about general motors!!! sheesh... we need to get jim a real keyboard for christmas... ;) Anyway, great information. BTW, I think it's funny that Jeep would refer to both the V6 and the V8 Buick motors as the Dauntless. I have a couple books on AMC, but their history is rather confusing. There were so many makes and companies involved that it boggles my feeble mind. Thanx again for bringing this issue up. Everytime I learn something more. :) john Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W." Subject: Re: xj: Re: Vigilante Justice john wrote: > ur 2 funny... :) Using my own words against my feeble memory. ;) What better way to win the arguement? :) > First off, the last URL you provide, jjournal, has some errors, the > Buick 350 is referred to as the Dauntless, the Vigilante was the 327. :) > > What I understand is that the 327 came from Kaiser by way of > Nash if I have my story straight... so calling it an AMC is fine by me... True, it came from Nash, but by the time Kaiser sourced them, Nash was part of AMC... if it wasn't already. > I believe that the Vigilante is also known not only as a Kaiser, but > as Nash and as a Rambler... as well as an AMC. To me it just seems > better to say it's a Kaiser, but saying it's an American Motors Corp > engine is ok too... (obviously. ;) I think the Vigilante moniker is a Kaiser exclusive, just like Dauntless was used for the Buick 350 (and the Buick V6, which Kaiser bought the tooling for, so it sorta became a Kaiser motor - after the design and production was already done by GM). It was a popular thing in those days for companies to name their engines... Olds Rockets, Chevy Turbo-Fires & Turbo-Jets, etc... > One thing for certain, it's not a Chevy 327. ;) Absolutely! The Chevy 327 is a much better motor! :^D > Officially, Jeep came into the AMC fold on Feb 5, 1970. AMC acquired > Kaiser Jeep for $70 million and changed the name to Jeep Corp. > > Remeber too that Willys is the company that officially started the > big Jeeps. :) It wasn't until March 1963 that Willys Motors became > known as Kaiser Jeep Corp. In name only... Willys-Overland had been acquired by Kaiser in March of 1953 for $62.3 million. So, the first SJ's were from the Willys division of Kaiser. > On page 87 of the original (read old and dirty from the '60's) > Factory service manual it refers to it > as a 'JEEP' V-8 Vigilante. In the front of the manual it says Kaiser > Corp. It also mentions a tag with the letters KJC, aka, Kaiser Jeep Corp. > > However, in a later supplemented manual that includes the Dauntless > (the Buick 350) it just refers to it as the Dauntless and makes no > mention of the source... So the manuals really can't resolve the > source issue... :( > > According to my AMC book, in 1959 the Ambassador had a 327 cid. While > it has the same bore/stroke, it has a higher compression ratio and 20 more > hp than the Vigilante... also, what's odd is the AMC book says it has > 5 main bearings??? how does that work on a V8??? book is probably wrong. > But, this does support the AMC/Rambler connection. Also, the peak > horsepower for both engines is at 4,700 rpm. According to "JEEP The 50 Year History" by Robert C. Ackerson (we both have a copy of that one), on page 191, you'll see: "In April, 1965 the Wagoneer became the first Jeep vehicle to be offered with a V-8 engine when the American Motors 327 cubic inch V-8 became available as an option." A little further down the same page, it says: "The engine [still talking about the 327] was originally introduced in 1956 for the Nash Ambassador Special line. At that time it displaced 250 cubic inches... it was easily expanded to 327 cubic inches with a 4 inch bore and 3.25 inch stroke in 1957." You said how do they do 5 mains in a V-8? Pretty easy! Most V-8's are 5 main. One main in the front, one in the back and one between each pair of cylinders... funny thing is Ackerson's book says it has FOUR mains - and I'm trying to figure out how that is done in a V-8... The horsepower difference is easy to explain... the Jeep version was a lower compression 2bbl version (possibly using the heads & intake from the old 250?) and the Nash/Rambler 327's were 4bbls. The '66 Super Wagoneer got the 270 horse, higher compression, 4bbl 327 though... > We've had this discussion on the FSJ list a few times. If memory serves > me correctly, which it probably doesn't. ;) It was determined that you > could call this engine a Nash, a Rambler, a Kaiser or an AMC... there was > a lot of inbreeding going on during this time... ;) I'm NOT an AMC history buff, but what year did Hudson, Nash-Kelvinator and Rambler form AMC? It sounds to me like the motor was first designed and built by Nash, used in Nash & Ramblers the second year of production and by the time it found it's way into Kaiser Jeep Corp. products it was certainly an AMC owned motor (if it wasn't at the start). Therefore, an OEM "Kaiser" 327 would be an AMC engine. To put it bluntly, the 327 was never built in Toledo, or any other facilty owned by Kaiser... so it is NOT a Kaiser motor. > I'm not 100% clear on how all this worked out either. I wish I'd been > paying more attention to what was going on in the car world when I > was back in school... ;) grade school that is... ;) > > So, is this you way of getting back at me because of the pizza > picture? rofl... You could look at it that way. ;^D > I'd like to get some definitive and authoritative information on the history > of the Vigilante. What I remember reading again said that Kaiser had > acquired the engines from Nash, which would have been AMC, right? The engine > has limitations based on the valve configuration and is limited to 327 Cubes. If you mean acquired as in Kaiser bought the engines from AMC, just like they bought axles and transfer cases from Dana, yes. If you mean Kaiser had acquired production rights to the 327, no. > Thanx Paul for raising this issue... hopefully a few people heard something > they hadn't heard before. And it's TOTALLY unrelated to XJ's... well, maybe not, since it's still Jeep family talk... but nothing discussed here really helps an XJ owner any more than learning more Jeep history. Sorry if I offended anyone with a waste of b/w... Paul - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1114 **************************