From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Nov 26 00:08:51 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, November 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1115 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: fuel injection fsj: '81 Wag fan motor jury rig fsj: MSD Ignition question fsj: Re: good stuff fsj: Re: 1980 jeep j10 fsj: Jeep history ? fsj: Re: 1980 jeep j10 fsj: Re: One more brainstorm fsj: RE: [1FSJ] Oh MAN! I am HOT!!!! Re: fsj: Jeep history ? Re: fsj: '81 Wag fan motor jury rig Re: fsj: fuel injection RE: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:11:50 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: fuel injection I just got the Howell Engineering kit for my 258. I believe they have a unit for the V8's as well. The Holley kits may not be the way to go. I had one for my 258 and got rid of it. It's probably better than their carbs, but still... it's a holley... holley is for performance... and then I'm not even sure about that. I wouldn't recommend anything Holley. I've had a few holley carbs, hated 'em. I had a Holley on Old Blue before I went with the Performer 1406 carb. The Edelbrock 1406 is awesome. I had a holley 2v on Superdawg, what a pig. I went with the Carter BBD and picked up many mpg! Of course the Carter BBD has it's idle problems... hence my getting the Howell TBI setup. The nice thing about the Howell is it uses standard GM parts. If you buy directly from Howell you'll save a little bit. However, if you buy it through my business we can get the jobber pricing after 5 purchases... :) They sell their kits for $995. Others mark it up from there... cheapest I saw elsewhere was $1095. Not sure when I'm going to install the kit... should have done it yesterday instead of having the Fest... oh well... gotta run some errands today. john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:09:20 -0600 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: '81 Wag fan motor jury rig Now join me for the next episode in the ongoing saga of the South Texas ^Ò81 Wagoneer project^Å^Å. With engine vacuum leaks repaired and tools in hand, our hero finds himself at the next step of his project: making the heater/defroster fan in his trusty steed operate properly. FAT CHANCE!!!! Well, I took the suggestions that I was sent and put them into action. They worked^Åto a certain extent. Thanks to James B., I was able to track the damper problem to a disconnected vacuum line on the center pole of the control assembly. Thank you very much James. The fan motor was an entirely different story. The wiring insulation under the hood was burned through, presumably from contacting hot engine parts, although this looked like it could have come about as a result of a current surge or (God forbid^Å) an engine compartment fire. The plastic connector that held the fan motor wiring to the connector block was burned around the end, thereby giving me the indication that this engine may have, at one point in it^Òs unknown past, actually been on fire. Current surges do not cause this kind of heat damage and blistering. After attempting to trace the wiring to the problem to no avail, I decided to abort this mission and pursue a more immediate (and temporary) solution. With the recent weather phenomena that have plagued our part of the country, a heater system is definitely needed in this vehicle. I have been driving this vehicle 18 miles to work everyday and then another 34 miles to Texas A&M at Corpus Christi twice a week. So, I decided to find a way to make the fan circulate air through the vehicle. Mind you, this is only a TEMPORARY fix until I can get the funds to purchase a new wiring kit for this vehicle from Painless Wiring (great kits^ÅI put one in my ^Ò74 CJ-5 and it worked beautifully). In the absence of a switch to make the circuit complete, I decided to find a place to wire the fan that would give it power. The only option I could see was to wire it to the IGN side of the solenoid. Wiring it directly to the battery would have caused obvious problems. Wiring the fan motor this way only gives one speed of fan operation: SLOW. BUT^Åit works for the time being until I can do it the right way. SOOOO^ÅI guess that now it^Òs off to the next immediate problem: the rear window. As long as I am in ^Ójury-rig^Ô mode, I think that a properly cut piece of Lexan will work for the time being. The only electrical problem there was a blown fuse^Åeasy to fix. The motor and switches work fine now that there is a new fuse in the circuit. The regulator is relatively smooth and the window channel is, for the most part, intact with very little rust to speak of. If anyone has ever used one of the Painless Wiring harness kits for an FSJ, please let me know where you got it and how difficult it was to install. I remember that the one I used for the CJ-5 was relatively easy to use. The included diagrams broke each section of the wiring down into a separate ^Ómodule^Ô if you will. The diagrams weren^Òt always drawn correctly, so having a Chilton^Òs manual handy really helped. The wiring harnesses provided had been correctly manufactured in accordance with the wiring diagrams found in the Chilton^Òs manual; that allowed me to use the Chilton^Òs manual diagrams when the ones provided with the kit were obviously wrong. Well, I am off now to tend to my kids. The weekend has yet to end, so I still have plenty of time left to tend to the Jeep. Have a good weekend everybody! Keep on Jeepin^Ò!!!!! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:31:24 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: MSD Ignition question I'm installing the MSD 6T, Blaster 3, etc kit and had two questions (so far): 1) Where did you install the module? I have so far moved the vacuum canister back to the rear and plan to install the mod. next to the OEM mod. This means I have to solder larger guage wires to the 6T mod. to make some of the proper connections. 2) Which switched 12 volt wire did you tap into for installation? Parts collected so far are: MSD 6T Blaster 3 Coil 8.5 MSD Wires MSD 8869 Fo*d dist cable adapter NGK spark plugs Thanks for any insight you can provide. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:40:09 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: good stuff At 02:28 PM 11/25/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: john wrote: > BTW, I think it's funny that Jeep would refer to both the V6 > and the V8 Buick motors as the Dauntless. Because: a) they were both originally sourced from the same company & division, b) the two motors are closely related to each other (the 225 being derived from the aluminum 215 V-8 and then the 300/340/350 iron blocks being dervied from both the V6 and the little V8), c) no Jeep model offered BOTH Dauntless motors, so there wouldn't be any confusion... if you had a CJ or Jeepster with a Dauntless, it was the 225 V6, if it was an SJ, it was the 350 V8. Clear as mud, right? ;) Paul ============================ Typical. Very typical. :) Just got back from a day of Seattle shopping with my wife. Took SuperDawg. :) His sunroof is only good for Sun. ;) Anyway, went to Barnes & Noble last, Jim Allen's Jeep Buyer's guide is filled with errors... but it's still a tempting book because of the production number info... I have to find that info somewhere. I REFUSE to buy a Jim Allen book, he makes some major mistakes, mistakes that shouldn't be made if he knew Full Size Jeeps. Errors in Transfer Cases, Errors in designators, errors in wheelbase, the list goes on and on... I don't know if I can trust anything he says about the Big Jeeps!!! ... :( john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:49:35 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 1980 jeep j10 At 07:24 PM 11/25/00 -0500, GJOHNPETERS-at-aol.com wp3-at-dana.ucc.nau.edu wrote: > Hello my name is will peters and I live in flagstaff AZ. I am currently >looking at a 1980 jeep j10 Honcho w/48000 original miles. > I don't know much about jeeps and I was wondering if you or some of the >people in your club might be able to answer some questions for me. > The owner is asking $4000 and has rebuilt the original 360 with a new > cam >and has put a 4 bbl. on it, has new front springs, rancho suspension, new >tires and wheels, plus it has the original paint job. >is the truck worth the asking price? and is there anything else I should >look for? > If you could please reply to wp3-at-dana.ucc.nau.edu it would be > appreciated. > Thank you, Will If you don't buy it, I will. Well, not really, I've already got plenty of Full Size Jeeps. :) This sounds about right considering the mileage and new engine. I'd have to see a picture to be sure. Is it the stepside model? If it is, I will buy it... ;) I have an '83 J10 Stepside, but mine isn't the honcho and has about 138,000 miles on the original 258 I-6. I don't recall what I sold my '80 Honcho for, it had a recently rebuilt 360, 2v, fair body and around 130,000 miles(????)... I've already forgotten, but one of the guys on the list bought it and drove it down to Alabama. After he had it down there a year the motor blew up. :( So, you might want to see if the motor was professionaly rebuilt or not. If the truck is straight and a stepside it'll have that kind of value even without the motor. I've some nice clean J10 Stepsides being offered for sale at $7,500 and up. email pictures if you have them. The 80 is the last year of the front lipped roof too. :) It's probably the coolest year for the Honcho because of that and the newer style axles and transfer case. It's also the first year that AMC offered the Stepside (sportside). 1984 was the last year for the sportside. john ====================================================================================== To subscribe to a list on digest.net, EMAIL majordomo-at-digest.net, no subject needed, in the body: subscribe [ fsj | xj | diesel-benz ] end (note: select only one of the options in the brackets) You will need to reply to an authentication message. Add a "-digest" to any of the lists to subscribe in the digest mode (messages are grouped, less traffic). Please do not send HTML, special characters, images, SPAM, attachments or stylized text to the lists. The "FOUR" List Rules: 1) NO flames. 2) NO foul language. 3) keep it Family oriented. 4) keep the subject list oriented. to post, email [xj | fsj | diesel-benz]-at-digest.net to unsubscribe, email majordomo-at-digest.net in the message: unsubscribe (list name) (your email) end ====================================================================================== john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com remember, leaving life with out Jesus isn't recommended... http://www.wagoneers.com/BIBLE ====================================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:54:15 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Jeep history ? Anybody know what years Renault owned Jeep? Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:57:18 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 1980 jeep j10 At 09:02 PM 11/25/00 -0500, GJOHNPETERS-at-aol.com wrote: > no I don't have any pictures, and no it is is not a step side. but it >still has original paint with the original Honcho decal. The guy that owns >it raced jeep j10s from 1973-1983 and he built the engine himself. he said >that the rod bearing spun because the factory had the specs too tight. so he >rebuilt it himself and kept all the recipts. > Thank you very much for your prompt reply and the help. I'll let you > know >what I do.if I don't buy it do you want the guys number? Sure, if you don't buy it I can pass it on to the lists. Sounds like the engine would be ok. You might try offering a little less, say around $3,500 for it. What color is it? john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:06:23 -0500 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Re: One more brainstorm I have one on my '89 GW. It works great - makes up for a multitude of sins. It went from barely ten to over 14 MPG. The engine also behaves itself. I routinely start it by reaching through the window and twisting the key :-) After a couple of years, the FI system is working great. There are some issues with the wrist pins, though. The rebuilders did a less than stellar job. The thing also leaks oil and has an exhaust leak. I know... what else is new? I have a bunch of text about the trials and tribulations of installing and tuning the system. Send email to RayDrou-at-quixnet.net if you want a few pages of text. Ray Drouillard - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Gaines" To: Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 10:00 AM Subject: fsj: One more brainstorm > Ok...time for an opinion poll... > Has anyone ever used the Holley ProJection 4dI unit on top of an AMC V-8? I > am seriously considering it. Does it improve the fuel economy at all? How > about power losses/gains? I have used the Edelbrock Performer (non-EGR) > manifold on 2 different AMC engines (304 and 360) and loved the results. I > used a CompCams 272/282/.459" (if memory serves me right today) bumpstick on > the 360...the power it had was absolutely incredible...I would have > estimated it at around 350hp...that's the one I transplanted into the '74 > CJ-5. Anyway, if anyone has installed one of these money hogs in an FSJ > before, please let me know what kind of results you got. What about any > snags or tricks to getting it all hooked up...esp with the emissions system. > Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:53:44 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: RE: [1FSJ] Oh MAN! I am HOT!!!! A: If the truck is actually over heating, then fan or thermostat. Otherwise, a bad ground to the body will do the same (and make poor charging and dim headlights) From: Thunderbird I drove my truck to work Wed. It was in the 40's and rainy. When I was running high RPM at low speed (accel from stop light) the Temp would shoot up to peg. If I didn't rev it so high it was fine. If I was at speed (50+) it didn't make any difference if I rev'ed it. Could this be the clutch dying in my fan? Brian ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:57:40 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Jeep history ? A: Somewhere around '82-'84, because it was the take off of the diesel Renault motor in XJs that made AMC a good buy for them. '88 was the last of the bail out. Ben wrote: Anybody know what years Renault owned Jeep? Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:18:23 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: '81 Wag fan motor jury rig A: The reason your fan turns slow (and your motor will lose top end power ) is because the coil + attaches to the ign side of the solenoid, and is less than 10V. I think the choke side is 12V, but maybe not. The power to the fan may be a problem with an internally melted fuse, or rusty box if your harness isn't bad. Ken wrote: Now join me for the next episode in the ongoing saga of the South Texas '81 Wagoneer project^Å^Å.       With engine vacuum leaks repaired and tools in hand, our hero finds himself at the next step of his project: making the heater/defroster fan in his trusty steed operate properly. FAT CHANCE!!!!       Well, I took the suggestions that I was sent and put them into action. They worked^Åto a certain extent. Thanks to James B., I was able to track the damper problem to a disconnected vacuum line on the center pole of the control assembly. Thank you very much James. The fan motor was an entirely different story. The wiring insulation under the hood was burned through, presumably from contacting hot engine parts, although this looked like it could have come about as a result of a current surge or (God forbid^Å) an engine compartment fire. The plastic connector that held the fan motor wiring to the connector block was burned around the end, thereby giving me the indication that this engine may have, at one point in it's unknown past, actually been on fire. Current surges do not cause this kind of heat damage and blistering. After attempting to trace the wiring to the problem to no avail, I decided to abort this mission and pursue a more immediate (and temporary) solution. With the recent weather phenomena that have plagued our part of the country, a heater system is definitely needed in this vehicle. I have been driving this vehicle 18 miles to work everyday and then another 34 miles to Texas A&M at Corpus Christi twice a week. So, I decided to find a way to make the fan circulate air through the vehicle. Mind you, this is only a TEMPORARY fix until I can get the funds to purchase a new wiring kit for this vehicle from Painless Wiring (great kits^ÅI put one in my '74 CJ-5 and it worked beautifully). In the absence of a switch to make the circuit complete, I decided to find a place to wire the fan that would give it power. The only option I could see was to wire it to the IGN side of the solenoid. Wiring it directly to the battery would have caused obvious problems. Wiring the fan motor this way only gives one speed of fan operation: SLOW. BUT^Åit works for the time being until I can do it the right way.       SOOOO^ÅI guess that now it's off to the next immediate problem: the rear window. As long as I am in "jury-rig" mode, I think that a properly cut piece of Lexan will work for the time being. The only electrical problem there was a blown fuse^Åeasy to fix. The motor and switches work fine now that there is a new fuse in the circuit. The regulator is relatively smooth and the window channel is, for the most part, intact with very little rust to speak of.       If anyone has ever used one of the Painless Wiring harness kits for an FSJ, please let me know where you got it and how difficult it was to install. I remember that the one I used for the CJ-5 was relatively easy to use. The included diagrams broke each section of the wiring down into a separate "module" if you will. The diagrams weren't always drawn correctly, so having a Chilton's manual handy really helped. The wiring harnesses provided had been correctly manufactured in accordance with the wiring diagrams found in the Chilton's manual; that allowed me to use the Chilton's manual diagrams when the ones provided with the kit were obviously wrong.     Well, I am off now to tend to my kids. The weekend has yet to end, so I still have plenty of time left to tend to the Jeep. Have a good weekend everybody! Keep on Jeepin'!!!!! Ken ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:27:04 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: fuel injection A: Today, I finished unloading all the stuff from the former South Park auto shop (Serious! It was Red's place) and I now have a collection of carbs to deal with. A couple Carter AFBs and BBDs (non-computer, early and late models), a '67ish Rochester square bore 4 bbl (rare), several Holley/Motorcraft 4100s and 2100s, and real old 1 bbls with glass float bowls, some with 3 bolt flange from flat heads! (I didn't check numbers yet) Now, I'm deciding whether or not to rebuild and sell them (I don't have a bench flow machine anymore for testing which makes it difficult) I still have to go through all this stuff and see what I got myself into! d#8^0 John wrote: I just got the Howell Engineering kit for my 258. I believe they have a unit for the V8's as well. The Holley kits may not be the way to go. I had one for my 258 and got rid of it. It's probably better than their carbs, but still... it's a holley... holley is for performance... and then I'm not even sure about that. I wouldn't recommend anything Holley. I've had a few holley carbs, hated 'em. I had a Holley on Old Blue before I went with the Performer 1406 carb. The Edelbrock 1406 is awesome.     I had a holley 2v on Superdawg, what a pig. I went with the Carter BBD and picked up many mpg! Of course the Carter BBD has it's idle problems... hence my getting the Howell TBI setup. The nice thing about the Howell is it uses standard GM parts. If you buy directly from Howell you'll save a little bit. However, if you buy it through my business we can get the jobber pricing after 5 purchases... :) They sell their kits for $995. Others mark it up from there... cheapest I saw elsewhere was $1095. Not sure when I'm going to install the kit... should have done it yesterday instead of having the Fest... oh well... gotta run some errands today. john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:31:22 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project A: Dude, you need to splurge $17 and get the factory wiring diagram! (Dyment of Chrysler. I have the 800# someplace, and it's posted on John's http://www.wagoneers.com site too) They only have them for '84 and newer, but 90% of the stuff is the same AFAIK. Maybe I should compare mine with John's diagram and see (I think only the later emission stuff is different) Ken Gaines wrote: Well, my worst fears are now confirmed...the cable is rusted to itself and will not open the damper...zip tie time. I have found the problem with the switch on the das control (fan speed switch). It seems that there is a missing wire on it. There is one connector that goes on the back of the switch. It has 3 wires on top and 2 on the bottom. There is what appears to be a wire missing from this connector. Here is a diagram of what I see:                                                               123                                                                                                           45 This diagram is as viewed from the open end of the connector. The wire missing is at position 1 and there IS a blade connector from the switch assembly that looks like it wants to connect to something that isn't there. I wonder if this is the main power wire or ground for the switch. If there are any ideas out there today in cyber space, they would be of a LOT of help. Thanks... Ken - -----Original Message----- From: James Blair [mailto:Carnuck-at-webtv.net] Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 11:01 AM To: Ken Gaines; fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: 81 Wagoneer restoration project A: Just a quickie reply, but if you check the heat control valve, it's under the hood in '84 (IIRC) and you can manually move it. The defog and floor heat control is missing a blend control. I hooked the 3 lines together with a vacuum tee, and got warm feet and clear window. There are 12V electric seat warmers too! (I had to use them in my '66 VeeDub microbus) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1115 **************************