From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Dec 20 10:25:35 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, December 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1148 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] fsj: Tranny Question Re: fsj: Tranny Question fsj: Re: Mostly older NOS FSJ parts for auction fsj: going off line for the holidays RE: fsj: Re: jeep wagoneer (cherokee) questions Re: fsj: more Cherokee questions (a little lengthy) Re: fsj: more Cherokee questions (a little lengthy) fsj: PITA lives up to her name RE: [RE: RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] RE: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] Re: fsj: tranny and transfer? fsj: Htr Problem Update Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery fsj: New exhaust for Wag RE: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] A: Why not swap bodies if the frame is good? From: michael.shimniok-at-usa.net (Michael Shimniok) "George, Frank" wrote: Gas tank too?!? That swap is looking less and less likely. Not 100% sure. Best to do some measuring around the tcase and driveshaft to see if it'll have enuf clearance. Can't remember the rear. I'd assumed it was a Dana, but maybe I'm thinking of the 79. One more thing to limit my options. Looks like I'll be selling a Chief drivetrain to pay for a locker. If it's 80-83 it'd be AMC20. night and found it labeled as a NP208. There are no vacuum connections on the case and the shift linkage doesn't look like the linkage shown in Chilton's and Haynes (no vacuum diaphragm). I verified my findings with a jpeg on the wagoneers.com site. Maybe someone swapped out the original xfer case?? Yup. You have an NP208. Your shift pattern for the floor lever is 2HI, 4HI, N, 4LO if memory serves. I am EXTREMELY interested to know how it lites up the 4wd lite on the dash. I just put a 208 in my rig in place of a 228 and know I'll miss the 4wd lite feature. I would be most appreciative if you could find that out for me. Does it also lite up any lite when the lever is as far up as possible (4lo) such as a 4lock or Edrive lite? So, you can remove those SelecTrac badges. :) You might be able to jerry rig your 2wd/4wd switch to activate the front axle. You need to find someone on this list or another one with an 80-85 SelecTrac FSJ to figure this out. Or you might be able to get a vac pump from sears and apply vacuum to each of the three nipples on the front diff and see if you can hear anything happening or if you can tell if it locks it up. Or you may need to plug the other two and apply vac to one. Route accordingly. :) The big black ball on the firewall center behind the motor should be the source for vacuum for the selectrac switch. I'm sure you can jerry rig it in time for the snow... Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:52:39 -0800 From: "Karl Kuehn" Subject: fsj: Tranny Question Here's one for you....Brian's got a '79 Wag that busted, but the tranny's good. What tranny is in the '79 wag? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:17:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Tranny Question TH400 (KEYBOARDS APART} ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:37:36 -0600 From: Mike Dillon Subject: fsj: Re: Mostly older NOS FSJ parts for auction Hi Mike, Notice that the NOS "Jeep" Ignition switch has a Crown automotive lable on it. I don't know where Crown gets its stuff, it maybe from the OEM manufacture of the "Jeep" part, but it stricks me funny that it is listed as a NOS Jeep part. Maybe it is just me and I am not sure of what the definition of "is" is when he says it "is a nos jeep" part. The guy has had some pretty neat parts for sale as of late though. Mike D. > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:53:42 -0500 > From: Michael Baxter > Subject: fsj: Mostly older NOS FSJ parts for auction > > Mostly, if not all, older FSJ NOS parts listed for auction: > > http://grass.ebay.com/go/101/12959187/1/526995016 > > http://grass.ebay.com/go/101/12959187/1/526963297 > > http://grass.ebay.com/go/101/12959187/1/526946264 > > http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/46896023 > > Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter > From Reno, NV USA on 19-Dec-2000 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:53:41 -0500 > From: Michael Baxter > Subject: fsj: tranny and transfer? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:21:01 -0600 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: fsj: going off line for the holidays Hi!.. Just letting you all know that I will be off line until about the Jan. 3 2001, If you need me.. you can call me.. 256 -881-8018 Seasons Greetings! I hope you all have a good Christmas! Later! R.J. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:09:03 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: fsj: Re: jeep wagoneer (cherokee) questions A: I'm a big fan of the NP208! I've run 2 now, and they are MUCH stronger than the NP219, 228 or 229 IMNSHO! The biggest drawback to them is no dry road driving. Probably the NP229 blew up and was swapped out. If you still have the vacuum switch on the dash, I still have some of the vacuum lines you can have. Then you can rig the front axle to the vacuum switch (same as I was going to do, but I swapped gears because my J10 is wider axles than a GW) You have to engage at a standstill (do you have locking hubs at least? If so, you can lock the front in 4x4 and use the hubs instead) The 727 is a fine tranny, as long as it is treated right (I had the 6 cyl 999 in my '83 Cherokee and pulled my super heavy 20' trailer with it at highway speeds) Limited slips are VERY uncommon on QT (factory advised against it IIRC) From: Frank.George-at-owenscorning.com Man. I know I'm new to Jeeps, but I'm really getting confused. Before your email, I "thought" I had a NP229 under the 83. That's what I read in most of the tech info I find. Sure 'nuff; I crawl under last night and its a NP208. However, the info on off-road.com's ifsj site says that Dana 44 vacuum diffs go with a NP229. Boggles my mind. If you haven't read my FSJ post, I'm trying to decipher how Selec-trac works, and how to get the front vacuum diff into 4WD (prev owner removed the vacuum lines and left it in 2WD). I was interested in the 79's drivetrain for its limited slip diffs and the locking capability of the BW xfer case. I'm not planning on getting too crazy offroad, but I want to know I can . Not too many rocks in Virginia, but plenty of mud, sand, and a little snow. Any answers/advice you can give are appreciated. I'm still waiting for my shop manual to arrive. Frank ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:18:47 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: more Cherokee questions (a little lengthy) A: Slippage in a 727 when cold usually means low line pressure due to leaking internal seals. I used STP engine oil treatment in mine to bump the pressure up, and I put it in gear for a full minute before driving away. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:22:56 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: more Cherokee questions (a little lengthy) A: STP in the trans that is! You can apply vacuum to the front axle to engage 4x4 (one of the nipples will engage, one will disengage. It also has another 2 that need capping and they will leak vacuum when the mate is hooked up) You can also manually engage the axle with a hole through the vacuum pot and a screw through to hold it in. It works like a vacuum advance, only both ways. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:30:45 EST From: Brdshootr-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: PITA lives up to her name Hello all, Some of you may remember me, I have posted a few times in the past but, mostly I have been content just to lurk and learn. Now I really need some help. In the past month My 84 GW ,PITA, has had the following problems. On my way to a pheasant hunt with three friends and two bird dogs intow PITA suddenly decides she does not want to move any longer. Eventually it was determined that the tranfercase, NP229, had gone bad. Utilizing the IFSJA resources I located a company that had a rebuilt NP229 in stock. The problem was that they were in Minnesota and I am in Ohio. $910 and four days later the rebuilt NP229 was delivered to my mechanic and installed. All is well and good in the world of Full Size Jeeps. Last weekend while picking up the family Christmas tree, after loading the tree on the roof and strapping it to the luggage rack I close the tailgate and insert the key to raise the rear window and it shatters into a million tiny pieces. I decide to replace the widow temporarily with a piece of plexigl ass. Last night I started to replace the window and began to disassemble the tailgate and in response to all the attention she has been receiving lately PITA decides to bust a tailgate hinge. So this is my latest dilemma. Where can I find a set of tailgate hinges? Does anyone near have replacement glass for the tailgate for sale? Should I just try to find and replace the complete tailgate? Help!!!!! MY money and my patience are both in short supply. Not to mention that it is about 10 degrees outside. Carl Farley 84 Grand Wagoneer "PITA" brdshootr-at-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:52:12 -0500 From: "George, Frank" Subject: RE: [RE: RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] >Date: 19 Dec 00 15:50:44 MST >From: Michael Shimniok >Subject: Re: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] <> >If it's 80-83 it'd be AMC20. Correct-a-mundo. Crept up under last night to see that round diff cover looking back at me. <> >Yup. You have an NP208. Your shift pattern for the floor lever is >2HI, 4HI, N, 4LO if memory serves. I am EXTREMELY interested to know >how it lites up the 4wd lite on the dash. I just put a 208 in my rig >in place of a 228 and know I'll miss the 4wd lite feature. I would >be most appreciative if you could find that out for me. Does it also >lite up any lite when the lever is as far up as possible (4lo) such >as a 4lock or Edrive lite? Hadn't gotten it beyond 4HI to N yet (any suggestions). I can't understand why I can't get N or 4LO unless there is a problem with linkage adjustment. Does the front diff have to be locked? As for the light, there's a wire coming from a connector in the housing. It looked similar to a reverse detent switch in a manual tranny. I wasn't paying too much attention at the time. I might be able to borrow a digital camera and email pics to you if you're interested. >So, you can remove those SelecTrac badges. :) You betcha. Maybe I can fabricate a Selec-Command-Trac Badge. Or would that be Collec-Trac? ;-) >You might be able to jerry rig your 2wd/4wd switch to activate the >front axle. You need to find someone on this list or another one >with an 80-85 SelecTrac FSJ to figure this out. Or you might be >able to get a vac pump from sears and apply vacuum to each of the >three nipples on the front diff and see if you can hear anything >happening or if you can tell if it locks it up. Or you may need to >plug the other two and apply vac to one. Route accordingly. :) The >big black ball on the firewall center behind the motor should be the >source for vacuum for the selectrac switch. I was thinking along these lines. Unfortunately, I haven't found any vacuum nipples to attach to; only 3 holes next to the diaphragm. No apparent way to connect a vacuum line. Waiting for my 1983 TSM to come. This months JP magazine has an article for swapping vacuum differentials to a mechanical switch. The company that makes the kit lists a Dana 44 kit for GM (or Ford). I'm thinking of calling them and seeing if its compatible with AMC/Jeep. Kinda pricey though. (~$230) Also looking at mechanical hubs. >I'm sure you can jerry rig it in time for the snow... We just got a dusting. I did determine that my Turbo Hyundai has some type of limited slip mechanism this morning. Of course, the two black marks in the parking lot were for purely scientific reasons ... Frank George Petersburg, VA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:35:19 -0500 From: "George, Frank" Subject: RE: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] The following are replies to separate posts from Jim Blair. (thanks for the input) - -----Original Message----- From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net [mailto:Carnuck-at-webtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 12:36 AM To: fsj-at-digest.net; Frank.George-at-owenscorning.com Subject: Re: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] Jim Blair wrote: >A: Why not swap bodies if the frame is good? Its been discussed. We have the technology. I'm in no rush though. From your post and my researching, It sounds like the NP208 is a pretty good xfer case and I shouldn't give up on the Torqueflite yet. I'm going to try and get the 79 running sometime in the spring. Who knows. Maybe I'll end up with two decent Cherokees when I was only planning to end up with one. <> Jim Blair wrote: >A: I'm a big fan of the NP208! I've run 2 now, and they are MUCH >stronger than the NP219, 228 or 229 IMNSHO! The biggest drawback to them >is no dry road driving. Probably the NP229 blew up and was swapped out. >If you still have the vacuum switch on the dash, I still have some of >the vacuum lines you can have. Please send 'em. I'll send you my address off the list. Let me know how much $$$ for S&H. The switch is still in the dash, and has color coded vac lines running through the firewall. One line is incoming vacuum. the other 2 are attached to a 3-pronged connector that was abandoned at the firewall. > Then you can rig the front axle to the vacuum switch (same as I was >going to do, but I swapped gears because my J10 is wider axles than a >GW) You have to engage at a standstill (do you have locking hubs at >least? If so, you can lock the front in 4x4 and use the hubs instead) Sent another post earlier. I'm also looking at the mechanical diff switch shown in the latest JP magazine, or buying mechanical hubs. > The 727 is a fine tranny, as long as it is treated right (I had the 6 >cyl 999 in my '83 Cherokee and pulled my super heavy 20' trailer with it >at highway speeds) > Limited slips are VERY uncommon on QT (factory advised against it >IIRC) The 79 Chief's prev owner says that both diffs are limited slip. I'm going to jack it up whenever the ground dries up and check for myself. Does the "tire rotation" test work on front diffs as well as rear? (rotate tire with vehicle jacked up. if wheels turn in same direction, limited slip. if wheels turn in opposite directions, open diff) I've heard varying opinions on diff lockers. My experience has been with limited slip in muscle cars. I've always heard that lockers have bad manners on the street. Can I tow a trailer if I have a locker in the rear? How about the AMC 20 rear? What's its reputation for reliability and strength? I'm not going rock crawling, but I do plan on seeing mud, sand, snow, and a little towing. <> Jim Blair wrote: >A: STP in the trans that is! You can apply vacuum to the front axle to >engage 4x4 (one of the nipples will engage, one will disengage. It also >has another 2 that need capping and they will leak vacuum when the mate >is hooked up) > You can also manually engage the axle with a hole through the vacuum >pot and a screw through to hold it in. > It works like a vacuum advance, only both ways. I haven't found any nipples so far; only 3 holes next to the diaphragm (maybe part of an assembly, but not part of the actual diaphragm). The holes face up, and I cannot really see that far into them with my mirror. I found the STP treatment online last night. I'm hoping that I just didn't check the fluid properly. I have the water pump off right now so I'll have to wait a few days to try again. <> Thanks to all for their advice. Its been awhile since I've played with cars. When I did, it was always GM (ow! stop throwing stuff at me). I had forgotten how easy motorcycles were to wrench (water pump ... we don't need no stinkin' water pump). Now were did I put my copy of "Zen and the art of Jeep maintenance"? Frank George Petersburg, VA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:46:11 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: tranny and transfer? BLW1540-at-aol.com said: {- In a message dated 12/19/00 08:10:11 Central Standard Time, dan-at-black.org {- writes: {- > It also has a 360 that should work -- but I'd recommend a rebuild to be {- > safe. {- {- From the foregoing, do I presume correctly that you put a used engine in it {- after losing the original? Yes, exactly. My dad actually originally got the '85 (in Marshalltown), and he overrevved it (he likes to sit there and rev the engine waaaay up when he first gets a vehicle... makes my skin crawl... especially since he knows better) and blew a piston. However, since other factors have hinted that it was previously abused, that was probably also a contributing factor. So before I even had the vehicle, he had to put a used engine in it. So I don't know the history of the used engine at all, but it seemed to run nicely and reliably. It does have a slightly annoying tick, but I think it's the same tick that developed in all the FSJs I've had, and I just found out the '88's "problem" is the heat riser down on the exhaust... So there's a good chance that's what the '85's is, too -- same sound, same area... Doesn't seem to effect the engine at all. But I'd still recommend it more for a rebuild project mainly because I _don't_ know the history before a year or two ago, and now it's been sitting outside a long time (over a year), and the last few months without a carb on it. (I have a carb I can throw in or even hook up, but it has a dead spot in the accelerator that is very annoying; that's why I swapped it.) So that's all I know. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town. -- Michael Prichard - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:15:12 -0600 From: Brian Wall Subject: fsj: Htr Problem Update Thanks to everyone who helped me figure out my htr problem. Now sufficiently armed with both a Chilton and Hayne's manual, plus an electrical system tester, I've narrowed it down to the bakelite panel resistor - as was suggested by several of you. I'll pick up the part today, so I'll let you know how it goes. Now, a second challenge... the paint on my GW wheels are bubbling and peeling badly... any suggestions for a fix? Is it better to remove the paint and remove the clearcoat - it looks like there's a clearcoat on them - or simply sand and re-paint? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:01:59 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery "George, Frank" said: {- Hadn't gotten it beyond 4HI to N yet (any suggestions). I can't understand {- why I can't get N or 4LO unless there is a problem with linkage adjustment. {- Does the front diff have to be locked? If the lever just physically can't be pulled back/up, linkage is a very good bet. The '84 I used to have was like that until we finally took the time to crawl under and adjust it (in Colorado at about 8000'). We took the time to do it right (just trial and error and about 20min, but not anything physically hard) and got it done; after that, it _always_ went into 4low smooth as silk. Was absolute heaven after having problems in previous years with other vehicles not liking to go into 4low. (Bruce, any problems since?) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I turned two I was really anxious, because I'd doubled my age in a year. I thought, if this keeps up, by the time I'm six I'll be ninety. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:20:01 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: New exhaust for Wag Michael, you mentioned a new exhaust system for your 360 powered wagoneer, that was successful. You said to leave the Y-Pipe in place, and I've also read on the digest that the exhaust manifolds are somewhat efficient, so for the revs we live at, no need to go to headers, though I was wondering about Doug Thorley Tri-Y design, anyway, can you give more details ? What brand of catalytic converter ? Does it still have the tube that comes back to the AIR system ? Is that removeable ? How much were the items individually ? Why 3" and not, say, 2.5" ? What brand muffler ? Does your system do a 90 deg. turn behind the right rear wheel, or does it go straight back ? Did you do any other engine mods to accomodate the freer flowing exhaust ? Thanks for any more info, as I'm contemplating this exact upgrade. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery] From: Frank.George-at-owenscorning.com (George, Frank) The following are replies to separate posts from Jim Blair. (thanks for the input) - -----Original Message----- I wrote: Why not swap bodies if the frame is good? U: Its been discussed. We have the technology. I'm in no rush though. >From your post and my researching, It sounds like the NP208 is a pretty good xfer case and I shouldn't give up on the Torqueflite yet. I'm going to try and get the 79 running sometime in the spring. Who knows. Maybe I'll end up with two decent Cherokees when I was only planning to end up with one. <> A: If you go ahead with the body/frame swap, you can put in a bodylift kit while you're at it! (adding fuel to the fire! I was also going to do that with Elmo because the original frame was rotting behind the gas tank. It was fine for normal driving, but since when do I drive normal? 8^P ) I wrote: I'm a big fan of the NP208! U: Sent another post earlier. I'm also looking at the mechanical diff switch shown in the latest JP magazine, or buying mechanical hubs. A: There is a cable axle shift kit I am aware of too (Rocklock I think). (snip) U: My experience has been with limited slip in muscle cars. I've always heard that lockers have bad manners on the street. Can I tow a trailer if I have a locker in the rear? A: Limited slip. Shiftable lockers (like ARB which are air locked and come from here in Seattle and the new electric locks) are fine because they switch to open or limited slip for road driving. U: How about the AMC 20 rear? What's its reputation for reliability and strength? I'm not going rock crawling, but I do plan on seeing mud, sand, snow, and a little towing. <> A: Axle tubes bending are the biggest concern due to small diameter, but welding on gussets cures that! I ran mine 120 miles w/o oil (a week after I got it, thanks to Q-no-Lube in Smokey Point, WA) and it was smoking when I pulled over. I only had some spray lubricant that I put on to get me home (I was near the US/Canadian border when I found out) That axle sounds like a 747 on takeoff as the speed increases, but the new owner ignores it like I did for 20,000 miles. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1148 **************************