From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Dec 27 16:09:46 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, December 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1156 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: TPS and AW4 Re: fsj: 79 Wagoneer Body Parts, Des Moines, Iowa Re: fsj: help Re: fsj: Re: TPS and AW4 fsj: Re: foaming oil fsj: Re: 83 Wag Re: fsj: tranny's Re: fsj: Re: 83 Wag fsj: '79 Jeep owners manual on bay fsj: Tale of a 2WD FSJ.... fsj: Re: jeep j-10 parts fsj: pudding gone... which tranny? Re: fsj: Re: foaming oil FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:40:18 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: TPS and AW4 Yes, the Howell TBI kit does have a TPS. I just read the instruction manual. Also, Jim says '91 and up has the 23 spline output shaft. Anyway, after discovering sludge I may be better off to go with the MPI 4.0L/AW4 setup. I think it'll be easier since there is a size difference in the transmissions (see below). 2" won't be a problem, plenty of clearance in the front of my engine. :) So, my XJ friends, are there any "bad" years of 4.0L's in the '91 and up range? I don't want to do this twice and I don't want to make a stroker... I want it stock for reliability, parts and economy. Wiring doesn't frighten me... I have a spare Renix computer, but that probably won't do me any good... I've also got most of the wiring harness from an '88. What differences happened after '91 besides computer change, HO and 23 splines? :) later, john At 09:14 AM 12/24/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: > U: James, do tell me more! I have an AW4 core here now. :) > >A: You need the starter and flex plate from an XJ, the TPS you're >getting put on is for AT, not MT right? (makes life easier) I got the >explanation of how to wire the brake light switch in from the guy that >does those shift kit things for the XJ, and FRank said you need to add >the TPS to the circuit. > >U: So, I'd need to use the flex plate from a 4.0L, right? What else do I >need? > >A: Or redrill the converter holes in a 727 plate. I was going to say you >could use the old starter, but it won't work in a AW4 bellhousing. They >will vice versa (weird, huh?) > >U: Is the AW4 the same length as the 727 or my T-5? >A: 2.5" longer. (I'm using a 2" shorter rear shaft from a V8 NP229 with >7' box if I can find one. If not, I'll cut mine down, but I need to make >a front one ) > >U: This would be awesome if I could use the 4speed auto. These trannies >are awesome. Remember I've got the shift lever and console from that '89 >we parted out too... Are you sure the Howell has a TPS? I'll have to read >the instructions again... wow, this is good news. > >A: AFAIK, the TBI has to have a TPS to work right. (one of the AMC-list >guys was doing the Howell kit in his Eagle) > >U: ... oh, wait. It'll have to be a '93 or up AW4, 23 splines, right? >That's why I didn't use the AW4 I had... it was 21 spline. > >A: '91 and up. Put an ad in the paper and online for a core to get the >output shaft. >U: This is good news... Remember I bought driveshafts from a J10 with an >NP229, so I have different length driveshafts I can use so I can keep my >NP208... or, get another NP242... of course then I'd need to do a SYE >(slip yoke eliminator)... >A: I'll know better when I tear into mine. - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 21:10:29 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: 79 Wagoneer Body Parts, Des Moines, Iowa BLW1540-at-aol.com said: {- From The Des Moines Sunday Register classifieds: {- {- "BODY Parts, new for 1979 Jeep Wagoneer, $100, 515-233-6927" Hey, that's here in Ames! (My number is a 515-233, too!) I'll have to call them -- who knows, maybe they'll have something for my '74. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When cryptology is outlawed, bayl bjgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 19:54:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: help The loose ground probably made a power feedback through the radio and blew the fuse. On my '84 GW I parted, there was one behind the factory AM/FM cassette (still have that radio and it worked! I decided to go with a AM/FM/CD player from work, so it will be for sale soon) The linkage is the rod that runs down the back of the head from the carb to the trans on the '81 (driver's side). The upshift point and downshift points are adjusted by how it's set. A return spring is need for it to work correctly. From: jbmolly-at-uswest.net (brian and molly johnson) i got it in and running. went down to a used car dealer and snuck a peak at another wag.....do you know any thing about adjusting some linkage or something to make my tranny drop into lower gears when i slow down? and also where i could get the kick down linkage to make the tranny go into passing gear?also my 79 didn't have any smog stuff on it and my 81 did so when i changed out motors it all went back on...any help on hooking the vaccume lines back up...also the radio just quit workingwas working and put the motor back in and nothing. the lights come on when you turn the head lights on but nothing else. i looked for a fuse for the radio but couldn't really find one for the radio.. sorry for all the ? but i'm new to the jeep stuff (1st One Ever)... but thanks for any help     Brian Ft. Lewis, Wa ----- ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:02:07 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: TPS and AW4 A: The wiring is totally different from Renix to HO (the whole HO system is under the hood and very few sensors swap. Especially not the CPS!) My stroker will be VERY reliable, since it's built with all the same parts used to build 272 cu in motors in many AMC or VAM built for Mexico City cars. LPG is just the crowning touch! John wrote: Yes, the Howell TBI kit does have a TPS. I just read the instruction manual. Also, Jim says '91 and up has the 23 spline output shaft. Anyway, after discovering sludge I may be better off to go with the MPI 4.0L/AW4 setup. I think it'll be easier since there is a size difference in the transmissions (see below). 2" won't be a problem, plenty of clearance in the front of my engine. :) So, my XJ friends, are there any "bad" years of 4.0L's in the '91 and up range? I don't want to do this twice and I don't want to make a stroker... I want it stock for reliability, parts and economy. Wiring doesn't frighten me... I have a spare Renix computer, but that probably won't do me any good... I've also got most of the wiring harness from an '88. What differences happened after '91 besides computer change, HO and 23 splines? :) later, john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:14:53 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: foaming oil In a message dated 12/24/00 6:36:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: >I've found that some brands of oil foam, >Pennzoil and Valvoline immediately come to mind. I've seen those two >brands foam and bubble, and also make a mess inside the engine. Now the >cases I've seen were ones where neglect had occurred. But after you've >seen the inside of an engine that's been neglected and maintained with >those products... you steer clear of them. :) (snip) > My guess at this point is the brand of oil used. Some oils just > seem to foam. I've drained Pennzoil that had been freshly installed > by a dealer and it foamed like crazy... (I was converting one of my "new" > Jeep to Amsoil...) I wasn't sure if I was draining oil or dish soap or > maybe even ATF... but ATF doesn't foam as much as that fresh pennzoil did... John, this is just silly. I've let this go for years and I just can't do it anymore. Modern technology has brought the functional differences between oil brands down to almost nil. I come from a Pennzoil family and have always used it out of nostalgia -- but I don't hesitate to use something else if it's handy or cheaper. I've never seen any oil do what you describe. I have seen engines that were trashed and foamy but that was only because it had oil in it, not because of the brand. I have no personal knowledge of Valvoline but I'm sure it's as good as any other. Next you'll be telling us about the pixies, gnomes, and other varieties of fairie creatures. I'd make some comment about Snake,er... I mean Amsoil here, but I'm above all that -- maybe. In all honesty, I understand that synthetics are a better product, but there is no way to justify the expense of rotating them through an engine every 3K miles, and there is no way I'm leaving any type or brand of oil in my engine longer than that. The bottom line is that any brand of oil that meets the performance standards for new cars will be just fine if it's changed often enough and not blamed for entirely unrelated problems -- like water in the oil. I know it's not polite to bait and run, but I'll probably be out of town before I have a chance to respond again. : ) Merry Christmas ya'll. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:46:53 EST From: BLW1540-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 83 Wag In a message dated 12/24/00 22:03:22 Central Standard Time, WilsonTV-at-mercury.hendrix.edu writes: > Okay i have kind of an odd question, and Im e-mailing you b/c I saw your > name on "the list" and I dont know how to post questions on there yet. So > here we go .... I was driving down the highway and a rock flew up in my > engine and broke the fan cover ... but as I was investigateing the > interesting noise that it made when this happened I noticed a part to the > block that im not sure what it is it has a pully on it but no belt yet my 83 > wagoneer runs fine the bracket is loose as well so it really isnt doing > anything yet when i looked in my Haynes repair guide i couldnt find what it > is . I know that the really really old trucks had generators to help the > alternators with electrical power but im sure that my wag is too new for > that or is it ... my other question is CAN I get a generator for it b/c I > have very weak electricty in my car..(power windows are slow ,turning on the > heat causes the cd player to stop while the lights are on, the lights are > very very dim, ect .....) So you see I am very desperate to find a way to > get the electricity working better any acvice ...? Oh the part that Im not > sure about is right under the power stearing reservoir if that helps... > sorry for the trouble but i would really appreciate any advice you have... > Tyler Wilson Generators preceded alternators, but they weren't and aren't used together. I suggest you pull the alternator and have it tested at a parts store. If the alternator checks out, it may be that you've got some wiring problems resulting in a voltage leak someplace, the finding of which may require some serious digging into the electrical system. As for the mystery part, I suspect it might be the anti-pollution air injection system air pump. Refer to Section 6 in the Haynes book. Bruce Wilson 84 GW Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:14:38 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: tranny's A: It's '81 and newer, but not all have it (tow package for instance usually doesn't have it due to damage caused by lock up at too low of speed, but the Chryco fix spring cures that!) It's the '86 and newer XJs (little Cherokees and Wagoneers) with 4.0L that got 4 speed auto, but '86 to 08/'90 were 21 spline and won't fit the FSJ transfercases. From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com Nope..What may have made you think that is if your FSJ has a lock-up torque converter. Makes it seem like a 4th gear. My '81 had a lock up converter. Not sure which years were lockup and which were not. Some folks on the list know that for sure. Anyone else have that info? - --Vince '81 Wagoneer In a message dated 12/24/00 3:16:19 PM Central Standard Time, jbmolly-at-uswest.net writes: is a 727 tranny 4 spd overdrive? ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:00:00 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 83 Wag A: Air pump for emissions (probably long gone and seized up) On the low power, try adding a ground wire from your battery to the body (or else ALL the power you are using ie: heater fan, CD player, wipers and headlights, is being routed through the engine bearings, driveshaft, rear end, springs, frame and bolts that hold the body to the frame before it gets to your equipment. The next thing to do is put a wire from the alt main output to the battery + and you should see everything work a whole lot better unless your battery is too weak, or the alt has bad diodes/loose belts. WilsonTV-at-mercury.hendrix.edu writes: Okay i have kind of an odd question, and Im e-mailing you b/c I saw your name on "the list" and I dont know how to post questions on there yet. So here we go .... I was driving down the highway and a rock flew up in my engine and broke the fan cover ... but as I was investigateing the interesting noise that it made when this happened I noticed a part to the block that im not sure what it is it has a pully on it but no belt yet my 83 wagoneer runs fine the bracket is loose as well so it really isnt doing anything yet when i looked in my Haynes repair guide i couldnt find what it is . I know that the really really old trucks had generators to help the alternators with electrical power but im sure that my wag is too new for that or is it ... my other question is CAN I get a generator for it b/c I have very weak electricty in my car..(power windows are slow ,turning on the heat causes the cd player to stop while the lights are on, the lights are very very dim, ect .....) So you see I am very desperate to find a way to get the electricity working better any acvice ...? Oh the part that Im not sure about is right under the power stearing reservoir if that helps... sorry for the trouble but i would really appreciate any advice you have...                                                                                        Tyler Wilson ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 13:52:06 -0800 From: Pat Hines Subject: fsj: '79 Jeep owners manual on bay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=532070632&r=0&t=0 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:31:44 -0700 From: "Holmes" Subject: fsj: Tale of a 2WD FSJ.... Went playin' in the snow today to do some winter photography and try out my new snowshoes.... Santa has such excellent taste! Fired up my Wagoneer and headed up the mountain. The road got pretty nasty, about 10" of snow, and I finally put it in 4 high (my hubs were already locked in). Gave it a bit of gas and.... the rear end starts sliding. I double check the transfer case, re-select 4-HI, and still no action out of the front wheels. Tried 4-LO and got the same result. The transfer case shifts felt fine and I could feel and hear the gears engaging, however, there was no input to the front wheels at all. Since I was alone on the mountain, I could not verify front driveshaft rotation. When I was in 4-LO, the gear reduction was present; just no 4WD. The Wagoneer is a '71 with a Buick 350, TH400, and manual hubs (Warn). I recently had my front bearings replaced and hubs serviced. I have never had any problems with my drivetrain and I'm wondering if perhaps the hubs could have been re-assembled incorrectly. Hard for me to imagine, but I'm at a loss to explain this little frustration. I am going to take the Wagoneer to my shop tomorrow to find out if the front driveshaft is being driven. Until then, I am open to any suggestions! Merry Christmas to all and safe four wheelin'. ~Holmes '71 Wagoneer, Buick 350 '89 Comanche '89 Shelby CSX-VNT '85 FLH-turbocharged '96 English Bulldog ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:32:36 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: jeep j-10 parts any widetrac cherokee or J-truck from any year will work. The right fender is usually harder to find around here... the roads have no shoulders so lots of folks end up smacking the RF fender. :) Check with salvage yards near you... postage can be a bit ugly on a fender. :) Willys-Overland or Willys-Jeep, forget which, they advertise in JP magazine, might have NOS even! They have Cherokee tubs!!! I've got a pair of Wagoneer fenders, but they don't have the flares. john At 04:56 PM 12/25/00 -0500, you wrote: >Dear John, > > I was told that if anyone can help me you would be the man. I recently >bought a 1980 J-10 that has a cancer infested right fender I would like to >replace it with steel instead of trying to bondo it since there is nothing >wrong with the body anywhere else. I was told that you might have one or know >someone who would have a fender doesn't matter if I gotta buy new. I just >want to fix it up and do it right in stead of taking short cuts... >Thank you for your time...John > - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:42:39 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: pudding gone... which tranny? Now I'm really perplexed... Yesterday I checked the oil on my 4.2L J10... it was really nasty, rust on the dipstick, grey/cream and sludge up the stick... I drove it to do some shopping yesterday, parked it, moved it into the carport where I'm replacing the injectors on my Benz, popped the hood to help retain some warmth in there... and decided to check the oil... it's black. (BTW, I am taking pictures of the injector swap) I'm trying to decide what to do on the J10. I really like it and want to do it right, but don't have my shop built right now... I guess with that said my first option is to drive it until I get the shop done... but then I'll need to decide which option to pursue. I need all the help I can on this one. OPTIONS: 1) replace 4.2L & T-5 with 4.0L and Aisin Warner 4spd auto (motor mounts will move forward 2", maybe, complete rewiring) 2) replace T-5 with 727 and install Howell TBI (no mount changes, but the 727 is a 3spd.) or 3) replace T-5 with AW4 and install Howell TBI (problem: engine mounts will need to move 2" forward) (I'd love to drop a 6.5L Turbo Diesel in, but I'm going to keep it Jeep. The 4.0L is an awesome motor and the AW4 is a bullet proof tranny, IMO better than the 727.) hope you had a nice Christmas. so, 1, 2 or 3? :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 22:42:03 -0500 (EST) From: David Charles Gedraitis Subject: Re: fsj: Re: foaming oil Your absolutely right-at my college (WPI-#1 in the country for engineering-yes even over MIT) we tested all brands of oil in test engines for wear. We ran (they were only four cylinders but engine wear is engine wear) the four bangers for a week straight at 4500 RPM, (we wanted to wear em out, but not strain them). There was NO significant difference in protection. Absolutely none. Oil is oil and that is that. I have a 361 in my Newport, with 10:1 pistons, nitrous, hi-riser cam and a lot of other goodies and it gets whatever oil is cheapest-not a single problem, and I beat that motor about as much as one can beat a motor. The only thing I have to say about synthetics vs. non-synthetics is that although you can leave them in longer, I wouldn't seeing as when I drain my oil it is BLACK, and I want that junk out of there. ~dave '67 Kaiser M-715 '61 Chryselr Newport '55 Chrysler Windsor Wagon On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/24/00 6:36:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, > owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > > >I've found that some brands of oil foam, > >Pennzoil and Valvoline immediately come to mind. I've seen those two > >brands foam and bubble, and also make a mess inside the engine. Now the > >cases I've seen were ones where neglect had occurred. But after you've > >seen the inside of an engine that's been neglected and maintained with > >those products... you steer clear of them. :) > (snip) > > My guess at this point is the brand of oil used. Some oils just > > seem to foam. I've drained Pennzoil that had been freshly installed > > by a dealer and it foamed like crazy... (I was converting one of my "new" > > Jeep to Amsoil...) I wasn't sure if I was draining oil or dish soap or > > maybe even ATF... but ATF doesn't foam as much as that fresh pennzoil > did... > > John, this is just silly. I've let this go for years and I just can't do it > anymore. Modern technology has brought the functional differences between > oil brands down to almost nil. I come from a Pennzoil family and have always > used it out of nostalgia -- but I don't hesitate to use something else if > it's handy or cheaper. I've never seen any oil do what you describe. I have > seen engines that were trashed and foamy but that was only because it had oil > in it, not because of the brand. I have no personal knowledge of Valvoline > but I'm sure it's as good as any other. Next you'll be telling us about the > pixies, gnomes, and other varieties of fairie creatures. I'd make some > comment about Snake,er... I mean Amsoil here, but I'm above all that -- > maybe. > > In all honesty, I understand that synthetics are a better product, but there > is no way to justify the expense of rotating them through an engine every 3K > miles, and there is no way I'm leaving any type or brand of oil in my engine > longer than that. The bottom line is that any brand of oil that meets the > performance standards for new cars will be just fine if it's changed often > enough and not blamed for entirely unrelated problems -- like water in the > oil. > > I know it's not polite to bait and run, but I'll probably be out of town > before I have a chance to respond again. : ) > > Merry Christmas ya'll. > > Ben Williams > '71 Wagoneer > '78 F-250 4x4 > '88 Bronco ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1156 **************************