From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jan 6 00:33:49 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, January 5 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1172 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: jeepster from Luxembourg fsj: Re: been thinkin' fsj: Re: Informative article about MB and Bosch ABS->ASR->ASD->ESP, fsj: Misc stuff fsj: great site: junkscience.com fsj: Black Rock Desert access now limited fsj: Re: been thinkin' fsj: John's dilema fsj: Paint fsj: Re:Installing a new flywheel FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 10:54:13 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: jeepster from Luxembourg At 10:06 AM 1/5/01 +0100, Délégation du Luxembourg wrote: >Hello John, Good to hear from you! How's life in the Benelux region? :) What's the price of benzine these days? How about Diesel? Benzine runs 1.49 to 1.65 / US gallon, Diesel runs 1.85 to 1.95 / US gallon (bummer... :( (I've got an '83 300sd) >I haven't written in a long time. We exchanged a couple mails some time >ago. I was living in Luxembourg and I was looking for a Grand Wagoneer and >I asked you all kind of questions about it. Well I did find one in >Belgium. Perfect condition, low mileage. I owned for about a year when I >grew a bit unhappy about the terrible gas mileage on this thing. I had a >few mechanical problems and I found that parts were hard to find. I had to >order from Canada or California. With the cost of the Dollar for us >Europeans, I wasn't happy about the high cost of parts. I then sold the car. I've been through this cycle too. :) I keep coming back though. :) >Now I really miss my Jeep because, in retrospect, it was a great ride. I >am now looking again for a Grand Wagoneer. I found one in London and I >will go up there this weekend. What advice can you give me on spare parts. >Is there a reproduction market for Jeep Grand Wagoneers or will they all >be used parts ? I hear a lot of people switch the carburators and the >intake manifold on their Jeeps, is this to improve the gas mileage ? spare parts are going to be an issue. If your technical inspection authorities allow it you may consider switching the engine out for something you can get parts for when, and if, it ever gives you troubles. Body parts and such will still need to come from US or Canadian sources most likely. But at some point in time those sources will dry up as well. As far as fuel economy. I gained a mile or two per gallon switching to the Edelebrock Performer manifold and 1406 Carb. However, one of the guys on the FSJ list installed the Holley TBI setup on his and gained reasonable mileage. You might also consider the Howell Engineering TBI unit, it's more costly, but a much better solution as it uses all GM parts readily available anywhere. I'm not impressed with anything Holley. >I am just impressed by the recent increase in popularity of the JGW. I was >in Los Angeles this summer and I saw quite a lot of them. There are also a >good number of JGW specialists selling refurbished cars, especially in >Texas and in California. It seems to become a real classic now. This is true. If it weren't for the mileage I'd get another one for the family. My wife loves the little wagoneer, and so do my kids (both drivers). The new WJ model of the Jeep Grand Cherokee is available in Europe with the 3.5L Turbo Diesel. I've tested the new WJ model off-road and found it's behavior similar to a Full Size Jeep. The only thing I don't like about the new WJ is the visibility, it's not like the old SJ model. It is likely that I will get a WJ in the next 5 years or so when the prices come down. I'm looking at one with the 4.0L engine and quadradrive. The new 4.7L V8 is supposed to be a good motor, but my 88 xj wagoneer has 207,000 miles on it's 4.0L engine. I've replaced the injectors/seals, timing chain and front/rear main seals, otherwise we just drive it. It's also been totalled once three years ago. :) While the Full Size Jeep is an impressive ride, if costs and economy are a concern, you should give thought to the WJ model in Europe with that Diesel. :) If you do get another GW, you might consider swapping in a 4.0L for fuel economy, or that 3.5L out of the new GC. I'm planning on swapping the engine out of my '83 J10 Stepside (SuperDawg), most likely I'll end up with a 4.0L, but am looking at all options right now. (did you see the pictures of my J10 on my server? http://wagoneers.com >Bye. Patrick ttyl, john meister snohomish, washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:07:00 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: been thinkin' At 02:31 PM 1/5/01 +0000, Mike Mehringer wrote: > How could your J10 weigh only 300 LBS more than the Mercedes? My 300SD > weighs somewhere around 4700 LBS? And my Grand Cherokee weighs 5300 LBS... >That's a difference of 600 LBS... and I would think a J10 weighs more than >a Grand Cherokee! >Mike M. >'83 300SD W126 >'95 Jeep Grand Cherokee ZJ I took my '83 J10 Stepside (sportside) across the scale in the valley, 4,100 lbs after deducting passenger weight. Surprised me, but without all the glass and roof back there it should be lighter. :) Also, it has the 4.2L I-6 engine, and a world class T-5. Old Blue tipped the scales at 5,100 lbs. (same scale, same passengers. ;) He had the factory moon roof, padded vinyl roof, etc... my '67 Wagoneer tipped the scales around 4,800 lbs or so... maybe a wee bit more. The benz is supposed to weigh 3,800 lbs, right? Fritz was the 300D and weighed in around 3,400 or something like that. (Nitske's book shows the 300SD at 3,780 lbs. the 300d at 3,480lbs) How'd you weigh your 300SD? Does it have rust and mud underneath? ;) So, if the engine in the 300SD, which propels quite nicely with that 3.0L engine, that weighs in at 3,800lbs, it shouldn't have too much trouble pushing 4,100lbs around... right? :) I'll try to run the Benz down to the valley and drive across the scales... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:11:17 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Informative article about MB and Bosch ABS->ASR->ASD->ESP, At 12:07 PM 1/5/01 -0600, Alec Cordova wrote: >Detailed feature article on just-auto.com entitled, "Five Years of the >Electronic Stability Program ESP(r)," at: > http://just-auto.com/features_detail.asp?art=403 > >It reads almost like a White Paper from MB or Bosch. Highly recommended >reading. Interesting site, too. - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:27:47 -0600 From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA-ING)" Subject: fsj: Misc stuff G'Day All I just had a few things I wanted to post...ideas and such. I was outside working on my Wag for most of yesterday and, as I was tearing the rear cargo area carpet and floorboards out, I several revelations. Here they are: 1.) IRT the aux fuel tank mod I am about to attempt...this came about while I was removing the spare tire and carrier...instead of trying to do a bunch of measuring and such to make a swing-out carrier from scratch, why not incorporate some OEM stuff into the project. The OEM spare tire carrier is VERY sturdy and will lend itself to making a swing-out rack quite nicely. The dimensions are right and it alreay has an anchor point incorporated into its own design. With very little modification, this otherwise-now-useless piece of metal will soon become a part of a spare tire carrier. The hinge assembly will work nicely to allow the addition of another metal bar in front to make a security device for the tire itself. As for a method of securing the tire/wheel assembly to the thing, another piece of steel flat stock of the same dimensions could be welded in place with either welded studs or heavy steel (Grade 5 or 8) bolts used as the attaching points. 2.) The cargo area of my Wag was severely rusted from about the midpoint of the wheel wells to the tailgate. The body support members were rusted away as well. I was browsing through the scrap bins here at work and found several pieces of 90-degree steel angle iron that will give MORE than enough support to the body and aux fuel tank. The sheel metal from this section will soon be gone (with the help of a recip saw and an oxy-acetylene torch) and will be replaced with the same section from the parts Wag that I purchased for $250 several weeks ago. (Don't worry, I have already removed the gas tanks from BOTH trucks.) 3.) The rear window channel (that ALWAYS rusts itself away) could be easily fabricated from some aluminum sheet metal. I found a piece of that in the scrap bins as well. (Does anyone have the dimensions of the rear window channel so that I can accomplish this? If not, I will definitely post them when I have a final product in hand and can share this information.) I can only see a couple of problems with this idea. First there is the problem of securing the glass in the channel so that it doesn't end up at the bottom of the tailgate while attempting to roll the rear window down. Second is the problem of making the regulator arm slots in the sheet metal. I guess that one could always cut the slots in seperate pieces of sheet metal and have them welded to the channel section, but from what I hear, welding aluminum is akin to welding two gum wrappers together. I also seem to remember there being two pieces of looped round stock, one on either end of the channel assembly, that guided the channel in the tailgate track. I would bet that these little loops play a pretty important role in preventing the rear glass from being shattered while operating the window. Anyway, if anyone out there has the dimensions, please email them to me or post them to the list. Once I figure out how to make a new one, I will let everyone know. 4.) Another IRT the aux fuel tank mod....instead of using a dual filler neck, why not just use the stock filler neck assembly with a 1.5" wye valve? It will save the body from the abuse of a hole saw and make the whole thing look stock. Anyway, if anyone has any ideas or comments, I would be happy to hear them. I am still working on getting some pics online so I can post them for viewing/laughs. Have a good weekend. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:17:49 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: great site: junkscience.com New from Junkscience.com, http://www.junkscience.com EPA Lamb Among Transition Wolves By Steven Milloy, Fox news January 5, 2001 Hope that the Bush-Cheney administration will bring a sound science agenda to the Environmental Protection Agency may be disappearing. If the leadership and composition of the Bush-Cheney EPA transition team is any indication, junk science will continue to rule the roost at the agency, regardless of the change in administration... The full column is at http://www.foxnews.com/science/junkscience/index.sml. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:30:32 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Black Rock Desert access now limited "robert crosland" writes: >> if i can ever get my wag running i'm in. << Robert, I added you to the list. You to Rob. Keep working on it but, if you're unsure of its reliability by then, you might want to consider riding with someone else. Which brings me to the Black Rock Trip news: There are 8 going so far. That assumes John Miller will go. He is in Australia at the moment. I suggested 3 days this year which was seconded. But Brad and Carl had so much fun last year, they made a moved and seconded for 4 or 5 days. Now we did about 180 miles off-road last year and we pretty much drove straight through. This year we're planning on exploring some side roads and going to some new places. So we have logistics problem to be able to stay out there for 4 or 5 days. Enough gas and enough ice. We're planning to go earlier this year to avoid the chance of hotter than normal temps being as warm as they were for us last year. If some have to go home early, that's not likely a problem. It is tricky navigating back to civilization from the NW end of High Rock Canyon. If anyone wants to leave us while were in the canyon, I would suggest they back-track unless someone who went last year also has to leave early and they can lead them out. I have reservations at the Soldiers Meadow Guest Ranch this weekend and I'll know more next week. I'll be in touch via e-mail with a group list then. Oh yea, one more thing. You will likely get some Manzanita pin striping on this trip. Just in case you have a real nice paint job. We didn't go anywhere where a stock Wag. or GW would have any trouble. In fact, some did it in 2WD with an open diff. And we won't go anywhere a stock Wag. or GW can go without hanging-up again this year as well. I'm sure anyone who went last year will tell you it was an experience no one with a 4WD should miss. Assuming there's any way you can get the time off to go. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 04-Jan-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:47:50 -0600 From: Mike Dillon Subject: fsj: Re: been thinkin' > - Hi John, I still think you should wait a few months, and get Vortec 4.2L I-6 from a 2002 Olds Bravada. Alloy block and heads, hemi head, variable cam timming , port injected 200 + HP .... Sweet, and it is still a 4.2L I-6, transfercase to trans mating should not be a big problem. The only hitch is waiting for a 2002 Olds-Bavada (Chevy-Blazer) to get rolled over near you. Mike D. > ----------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:42:11 -0800 > From: john > Subject: fsj: been thinkin' > > been thinkin', I know, I know, my boss, my wife, my friends, > they all discourage it, but hey... a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do... > > anywho. > > superdawg. > engine. > transmission. > transfer case. > Diesel? > > thinkin' about a 3.0L Mercedes Turbo Diesel as I drove back from Seattle > tonight in the 300SD... With over 42 gallons of fuel, even at 20 mpg I'd > go a long, long way. Considering my J10 has taller gears and only weighs > about 300 lbs or so more than the 300SD I might even see mileage up in the > 26 to 28 mpg range... that would give me a range of about 1176 miles! > > Ok, here comes the questions. > > 1) how in the world do I connect a Mercedes turbo Diesel to ANY transmission > that will bolt up to my transfer case or ANY xfr case???? > > a) use my T-5? then I'd have to find a flywheel for the 3.0L TD. > (doesn't solve the problem with my left leg/lower back... :( > b) use the MBz 4speed automatic? How do I mate THAT to ANY xfr case? > divorced case? which ones would work to replace an NP208??? > c) use an Aisin Warner 4speed auto? Where do I find an adapter to mate > engine/trans??? might not be that hard... but will the torque > converter > from the Aisin Warner mate to the Benz flex plate? Oh, drat, how > would one solve the computer problems??? A manual box, but that could > risk burning it up by accident... :( > > Ideas, suggestions? > > This is just thinkin' now... :) > > Other thoughts include an '89 Ford 302 with Fuel injection, complete engine/ > trans, etc. $1,500... Question is how hard to convert a Ford AT to work > with a transfer case? advance adapter tail shaft for more than we care to > think? > divorced case? (need to learn more about these mythical beasts... ;) > > Still thinking about whit's old 5.2L V8... haven't had time to check on > a rebuild... would still need to figure out which tranny to use... Rebuilding > anything doesn't excite me right now... however, > > ...then there is always the harebrained idea of having my 4.2L rebuilt and > putting a 4.0L head on it, use the 4.0L distr and so on... and an Aisin Warner. > > The 1983 4.2L was the same compression ratio, 9.2:1 as the 4.0L, same basic > block from what I can gather from the factory manual that has the 4.0/4.2 in > the same book! :) (more engine specs under separate email... ) > > So, here I sit, thinkin'... how do I want to go about this? :) No hurry, > always a good position to be in when doing something like this. :) > > Actually had a call on the 300SD this morning. The ad started in the Seattle > papers today... Mixed emotions on selling it... I need the money to extend > my garage and do the engine swap... but it sure is a nice car... :( But, > when it comes down to it. I'd rather have my J10 than a Mercedes... > > You know one things I dislike most about the Mercedes is that climate control > setup... what a Rube Goldberg setup that is. I drove the little wagoneer into > town at lunch, we adjusted the heater where we wanted it and never touched it > again... went to Seattle in the Benz and I was constantly having to fiddle with > the settings to get it comfortable... almost took out a section of guardrail > on 520... ;) HEY, that would have solved TWO out of three of my problems. :) > It would have provided an engine for SuperDawg and would have paid off the > Benz... the only problem it wouldn't solve is the insurance issue... I'm > FINALLY > out of the woods from hitting that tree over three years ago! > > sorry for going so long... but I've been thinkin'. ;) > > john > - ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > - ------------------------------------------------------- > > - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: John's dilema A: 1: What trans does the Mercedes run behind their motors now? Do they run the same trans in their 4x4 SUVs? (bellhousing swapping is an option on most German or Euro RWD vehicles that I've seen in the past) a) Convert to hydraulic clutch and add a mini hydro booster, and run a 4.0L or an adapter for your Mercedes motor, (or Nissan turbo diesel which the XJs should have come with instead of the French junque) b) Again, what AT is behind the Benz? (I called and they said it's a 722.3, whatever that is!) You could use a GM divorced NP208 case with some mods. (I did a Dodge conversion long ago in a A-100 van-up that I made 4x4) but getting a CV joint put in the shaft between rather than Ujoints would be an excellent upgrade! (I had vibrations running a short shaft with only 1 Ujoint, even though I tried my best to align them. Too much mount flexing) c) AFAIK, the AW4 was only used behind the Nissan diesel. Not sure what the turbo model got. It would need a different torque converter for diesel for sure. The trans computer can be rigged up with a couple added inputs. Throttle position sensor and the TVS cable are the biggies. Bellhousing adapter with starter mounts would be the hardest with a flexplate adapter spacer between the 2 flexplates. (I built one before to adapt a '61 Fargo W-500 426 Wedge to a 540AT Allison for a buddy that lost his leg in a motorcycle accident) I personally wouldn't use a Ford car trans in this application (especially the AOD. There are a ton on the scrap piles!) A 5.2L would be good, but I would build a 340 instead and use the 5.2L goodies on it. (more torque, and it's a square motor for about the same $ and fuel economy, which is about 17 mpg in the GCs, AND you can run a 999 or lockup 727, since the AW4 doesn't bolt up AFAIK) The Early 4.0L head and late '80s 4.2L head are identical. (Yours is too, except the position of the intake ports is 1/4" lower on yours. Pics on my page and photopoint) Get a '91 or newer 4.0L head at least! (I can dig up the casting number in my stuff on my stroker webpage. it's NOT the one I have!) From: john been thinkin', I know, I know, my boss, my wife, my friends, they all discourage it, but hey... a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do... anywho. superdawg. engine. transmission. transfer case. Diesel? thinkin' about a 3.0L Mercedes Turbo Diesel as I drove back from Seattle tonight in the 300SD...   With over 42 gallons of fuel, even at 20 mpg I'd go a long, long way. Considering my J10 has taller gears and only weighs about 300 lbs or so more than the 300SD I might even see mileage up in the 26 to 28 mpg range... that would give me a range of about 1176 miles! Ok, here comes the questions. 1) how in the world do I connect a Mercedes turbo Diesel to ANY transmission     that will bolt up to my transfer case or ANY xfr case????       a) use my T-5? then I'd have to find a flywheel for the 3.0L TD.           (doesn't solve the problem with my left leg/lower back... :(       b) use the MBz 4speed automatic? How do I mate THAT to ANY xfr case?           divorced case? which ones would work to replace an NP208???       c) use an Aisin Warner 4speed auto? Where do I find an adapter to mate       engine/trans??? might not be that hard... but will the torque converter                   from the Aisin Warner mate to the Benz flex plate? Oh, drat, how       would one solve the computer problems??? A manual box, but that could                 risk burning it up by accident... :( Ideas, suggestions? (snip) sorry for going so long... but I've been thinkin'. ;) john - - A: See? I didn't let you go on so long this time! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:30:51 -0600 From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA-ING)" Subject: fsj: Paint Hello again.... Well, my Wag will be ready for painting within the next couple of weeks...YEESSSSS!!!!! I was doing some pointless surfing and decided to look for color chips online...I found NADA, ZIP, NOTHING. So, I figure that I might be able to find what I was looking for on the Wagoneers.com site. I found something close, but no cigar. The color samples posted to the site are for the 1988 model year (I think). I found a clolr that LOOKS like it matches my OEM paint, but I am not sure. I was wondering if someone has the color codes for the 1981 model year. My Wag is a really dark blue metallic color. I like this color and want to repaint the entire truck exactly as it was done at the factory. Please help.... Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:01:52 -0600 From: Mike Dillon Subject: fsj: Re:Installing a new flywheel Dropping the tras/transfer is the way to go. You don't need a new fly-wheel just a new ring rear. If you don't have a torch and know how to use it then have some-one else install the new ring gear on the old flywheel. The basic idea is to cut part way though the old ring gear and use a cold chisel to get it off the flywheel. Then take the new ring gear and gently and evenly heat it up then slip it over the cold flywheel. While you are there check the flywheel surface and if need be have it surfaced, then check the pressure plate and clutch disk. For it is now the time to replace these wear parts if they are any more than about half worn out. (base your decision on how soon you are willing to drop the trans again vs. cost of parts) Mike D > > Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 10:21:37 -0500 > From: Jim Mahaney > Subject: fsj: Installing a new flywheel > > I have a 1984 J10 with a 360 V8 and the flywheel is beginning to lose teeth in about a 4 > inch section. Currently, when the engine gets stuck in this section, I use a 3/4 wrench > to turn the engine past the bad teeth. This method is really starting to get old after > about a week, so I am going to do the right thing and install a new flywheel. Is it > possible to do this by dropping the transmission and leaving the engine intact? I do not > have the setup to remove the engine where the truck currently resides, so I figured this > might be an easier method. Also, any recommendations on where to purchase a new flywheel? > > Thanks, > > Jim Mahaney > 1979 CJ-7 > 1984 J10 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1172 **************************