From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jan 6 12:13:20 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, January 6 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1173 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: jim's scrap metal Re: fsj: Misc stuff fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1171 fsj: Installing a new flywheel fsj: cooling fans fsj: Low compressions fsj: Diesel for Dawg fsj: The Cherokee has finally died! fsj: Jeep Liberty - real or pretend ? fsj: Re: Diesel for Dawg Re: [fsj: more thinkin' (engine specs)] Re: [fsj: Paint] Re: fsj: The Cherokee has finally died! Re: fsj: Re: more than 9 months of rain... Re: fsj: Misc stuff fsj: Re: Diesel for Dawg fsj: color samples... fsj: I was thinkin' the same thing... fsj: Re: Body Swaps FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:47:01 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: jim's scrap metal A: I went for a little walk by the lake (Been busy working, emptying my house and getting ready to sell. It's on the market today) http://www.seattleinsider.com/news/2001/01/04/monolith.html From: john Jim, exactly where have you been the last few days??? ;) http://digitalcity.netscape.com/seattle/news/article.dci?article=685187 ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:57:47 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Misc stuff A: This piece is available new (by Crown) for about $17 from http://wwwoly4x4.com From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA-ING)" 3.) The rear window channel (that ALWAYS rusts itself away) could be easily fabricated from some aluminum sheet metal. I found a piece of that in the scrap bins as well. (Does anyone have the dimensions of the rear window channel so that I can accomplish this? ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:08:22 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1171 A: For us ex-forces guys, there is USAA (United Services Automobile Assoc). It costs me $1000 a year for full coverage on a '99 Ranger, '84 J10, '86 Comanche, '86 Dodge van, and '62 Rambler (bill just came in the mail) with no under 25 drivers and my wife's 3 tickets and my 1 (for crossing the centerline rather than plowing into an unlit State Patrol cruiser that pulled in front of me -at-11 PM on a rainy night) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:21:44 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Installing a new flywheel Jim Mahaney writes: >> I am going to do the right thing and install a new flywheel. Is it possible to do this by dropping the transmission and leaving the engine intact? << Yes. You either have to remove the t-case and tranny or remove the engine. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 05-Jan-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:21:43 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: cooling fans john writes: >> I picked up a Land Rover World magazine at Barnes and Noble tonight and found an ad for http://www.kenlowe.com they claim 8.5% fuel savings, lots of other cool stuff... haven't checked their site yet. << They only go to 16". We need 19" minimum. There is, or was, a company in the Mid-West which made replacement fan clutches which were electromechanical. They included a temp. sensor and the electronics to engage the fan when needed. A electromechanical fan clutch would work just like an A/C compressor clutch. Either allow the fan to freewheel or engage it at 100% of water pump shaft speed. They also provided a switch to mount inside so you could manually engage the fan clutch when necessary. A really good idea for people w/o A/C and/or who live in relatively cool climates. I just can't find the contact data....but, I'm looking. Something like that would save some gas and the engine would have more power...when the clutch was disengaged. But it wouldn't be good for A/C in slow and go traffic when the temp. was too low to have the fan engage or any place where it is really hot. In the later case, you might as well have a fan clutch which is engaging the fan at 50% of water pump shaft speed all of the time rather than at 100% 50% of the time. Easier on the ears and the A/C's consistency. What we really need is a fan clutch that has three modes. Freewheel, thermal viscus, and 100% engaged. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 05-Jan-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:21:42 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Low compressions "michel balea" writes: >> Do i try to retorque.... why do i ask... the head looks so clean... no varnish, the engine has a plate epoxied onto the bloc... looks rebuilt. The whole beast has power! Off course all that because i failed smog, at 2500 High HC = 201 vs 180 max allow. Failed CO 0.16 vs 0.20 average. pass at idle HC 55 vs 40 average. pass High CO = 2.38 vs 1.20 max allow. Failed EGR and others are operationnal, timing is a tad lower than spec 14 vs 19 on the sticker << You failed at idle also unless that's a typo? I think I'd leave the head torque alone. Assuming you've done the no bubbles or oil in the coolant look, no coolant in oil. You're smog results are mixed which makes me reluctant to stick my neck out. It's running a little rich at 2500 RPM, but that's not unusual for a stock 360 with no load on the engine. I called someone in the know and he said retard the timing 1st (without me telling him what your initial timing was in the 1st place). Second he said make sure the oil is clean and then go back for a retest. I think the retard timing advice is good. I'd go to the 8-10 degree BTDC range since you're at sealevel. Also make sure the mechanical advance and vacuum advance mechs. are functioning and check the air pump for output. Then you could chance a retest. If you really want to stack the deck, replace the catalytic converter. I wouldn't be too concerned about the low compression #s until you drive it a few thousand miles. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 05-Jan-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:41:05 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Diesel for Dawg John, In the late '80's, Volvo had a turbodiesel straight 6 and 4spd auto trans that came from European Isuzu trucks. You might consider Isuzu as an option, or look at their offerings, they make a lot of industrial diesels that stress fuel efficiency and reliability. - - Landon Ok, here comes the questions. 1) how in the world do I connect a Mercedes turbo Diesel to ANY transmission that will bolt up to my transfer case or ANY xfr case???? a) use my T-5? then I'd have to find a flywheel for the 3.0L TD. (doesn't solve the problem with my left leg/lower back... :( b) use the MBz 4speed automatic? How do I mate THAT to ANY xfr case? divorced case? which ones would work to replace an NP208??? c) use an Aisin Warner 4speed auto? Where do I find an adapter to mate engine/trans??? might not be that hard... but will the torque converter from the Aisin Warner mate to the Benz flex plate? Oh, drat, how would one solve the computer problems??? A manual box, but that could risk burning it up by accident... :( Ideas, suggestions? - -- R16884-at-email.sps.mot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:48:30 EST From: Moontanman-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: The Cherokee has finally died! After ripping the heart out of the jeep Cherokee when they downsized it and turned it into a mini van with four wheel drive. The jeep Cherokee has finally died. It was a long slow death punctuated with many attempts to revive it by injecting unneeded fragile technology into the corpse. Possibly the current fiasco involving other "SUV's" and their vulnerability to turn overs will be the death toll for others that have tried to promote fragile complex 4X4's as real four wheel drives. We fans of the FSJ know better, give me a solid axle and a solid frame with a big motor and big tranny welded to a big body any day. Bow our heads in respect one last time, the Jeep Cherokee is dead! Long live the FSJ Cherokee that gave it birth! Moon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:53:50 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Jeep Liberty - real or pretend ? "Jeep invented the compact SUV segment with Cherokee 18-years ago, and with the launch of the all-new Jeep Liberty, we will further enhance and broaden the overall Jeep brand." I suppose this will be a light, teeny, macpherson strut, unibody samurai knockoff, with no wheel travel, leg room, towing capacity, offroad capability, etc. Please, somebody, tell me I'm wrong. - - Landon - -- R16884-at-email.sps.mot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:07:02 -0500 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: fsj: Re: Diesel for Dawg > a) use my T-5? then I'd have to find a flywheel for the 3.0L TD. > (doesn't solve the problem with my left leg/lower back... :( You can solve that problem by selling your T-5 to me :-) Ray ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 2001 17:41:41 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: more thinkin' (engine specs)] > year - engine - HP -at- rpm - torque -at- rpm > ---------------------------------------------------- > 83 - J10 4.2L - 115 hp -at- 3,200 - 210 ft lbs -at- 1,800 <-- current > 83 - 300SD 3.0L - 125 hp -at- 4,350 - 170 ft lbs -at- 2,400 <-- the benz Trick, but I'd want more power ... 170 ft-lbs ... that's it?? Why not use a Dodge diesel drivetrain?? > 88 - XJ 4.0L - 177 hp -at- 4,500 - 224 ft lbs -at- 2,500 <-- little wag > 91 - XJ 4.0L - 190 hp -at- 4,750 - 225 ft lbs -at- 4,000 <-- first choice ??? Screamer motor, that 91. But a friend has a 94 or 96 or something, and it hauls butt. It'd probably even move a J10 respectably well. > 97 - ZJ 5.2L - 220 hp -at- 4,400 - 300 ft lbs -at- 3,200 <-- whit's motor > 88 - GM 350V8-FI- 210 hp -at- 4,000 - 300 ft lbs -at- 2,800 > 89 - Ford 302-FI- 185 hp -at- 3,400 - 270 ft lbs -at- 2,400 These figures just depress me. Maybe I'll feel better if I finish my 401/EFI build... no, I'll feel better if I finish the rear main on the 360 currently in the truck so it'll actually be on the road again for the 1st time since July. :/ Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 2001 18:03:36 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Paint] But hopefully with a much better clearcoat, right? :) :) "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA-ING)" wrote: > I like this color and want to repaint the entire truck exactly as it > was done at the factory. Please help.... > Ken - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:17:19 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: The Cherokee has finally died! I was just reading the newest version of Car & Driver yesterday about the new Jeep Liberty. In that article, they mention that this vehicle will not be the death of the 17 year old Cherokee design...that it's got another 5 years left. Then I read in today's paper that with the introduction of the Liberty, they are discontinuing the production of the Cherokee. Oops...bad info... - --- Moontanman-at-aol.com wrote: > After ripping the heart out of the jeep Cherokee when they downsized it and > turned it into a mini van with four wheel drive. The jeep Cherokee has > finally died. It was a long slow death punctuated with many attempts to > revive it by injecting unneeded fragile technology into the corpse. Possibly > the current fiasco involving other "SUV's" and their vulnerability to turn > overs will be the death toll for others that have tried to promote fragile > complex 4X4's as real four wheel drives. We fans of the FSJ know better, give > > me a solid axle and a solid frame with a big motor and big tranny welded to a > > big body any day. Bow our heads in respect one last time, the Jeep Cherokee > is dead! Long live the FSJ Cherokee that gave it birth! > > Moon Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 23:00:29 -0800 From: Paul & Megan Kershner Subject: Re: fsj: Re: more than 9 months of rain... You know that new section of two-lane West-bound 522? Well they put that "mountain" of dirt on the northside and then "sprinkled" it with grass seed to keep it from eroding... Guess what happened last night? Mud slide on 522 - whoooda thunk... pk Karl Kuehn wrote: > > I agree. In fact, I'm thinking of installing a rain plow on the wagoneer > and making some real cash this spring. > > I tried building a rainman the other day in the yard with the kids, but the > results were a little disappointing. > > def...def..Definitely muddy...yeahhhh....my shoes are definitely squishy... > > hehe > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 11:56 PM > Subject: fsj: more than 9 months of rain... > > > I was outside today working on the fence and having to shovel some > > silt and mud from the driveway to let the water run off... then it > > dawned on me... I WAS SHOVELING RAIN! ;) Shoveling rain at 50 degrees > > is a lot better than shoveling snow. > > http://www.komotv.com/weather/2000_in_review.html > > > > john > > ==================================================================== > > > > If it exhibits ambulatory and auditory characteristics > > consistent with current data on a small waterfowl with flat > > bill, short neck and webbed feet, it would be illogical to > > assume that it is anything other than a duck. > > > > However, in this era of post-modern license with basic > > linguistic commodities, our view is only relative and if we > > say we know the truth, we will be labeled a hateful, narrow-minded, > > intolerant bigot. So a duck is only a duck when you embrace > > his world view, otherwise, it's just a bunch of funny looking parts. > > > > ==================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 23:18:38 -0800 From: Paul & Megan Kershner Subject: Re: fsj: Misc stuff Ken, You are knocking yourself out!! Olympic 4X4 wrecking yard here in Warshington has those rear channels in some of their FSJs and they claim to have been able to get NEW ones for about $45, although they were out when I needed one. pk "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA-ING)" wrote: > > G'Day All > I just had a few things I wanted to post...ideas and such. I was outside > working on my Wag for most of yesterday and, as I was tearing the rear cargo > area carpet and floorboards out, I several revelations. Here they are: > > 1.) IRT the aux fuel tank mod I am about to attempt...this came about while > I was removing the spare tire and carrier...instead of trying to do a bunch > of measuring and such to make a swing-out carrier from scratch, why not > incorporate some OEM stuff into the project. The OEM spare tire carrier is > VERY sturdy and will lend itself to making a swing-out rack quite nicely. > The dimensions are right and it alreay has an anchor point incorporated into > its own design. With very little modification, this otherwise-now-useless > piece of metal will soon become a part of a spare tire carrier. The hinge > assembly will work nicely to allow the addition of another metal bar in > front to make a security device for the tire itself. As for a method of > securing the tire/wheel assembly to the thing, another piece of steel flat > stock of the same dimensions could be welded in place with either welded > studs or heavy steel (Grade 5 or 8) bolts used as the attaching points. > > 2.) The cargo area of my Wag was severely rusted from about the midpoint of > the wheel wells to the tailgate. The body support members were rusted away > as well. I was browsing through the scrap bins here at work and found > several pieces of 90-degree steel angle iron that will give MORE than enough > support to the body and aux fuel tank. The sheel metal from this section > will soon be gone (with the help of a recip saw and an oxy-acetylene torch) > and will be replaced with the same section from the parts Wag that I > purchased for $250 several weeks ago. (Don't worry, I have already removed > the gas tanks from BOTH trucks.) > > 3.) The rear window channel (that ALWAYS rusts itself away) could be easily > fabricated from some aluminum sheet metal. I found a piece of that in the > scrap bins as well. (Does anyone have the dimensions of the rear window > channel so that I can accomplish this? If not, I will definitely post them > when I have a final product in hand and can share this information.) I can > only see a couple of problems with this idea. First there is the problem of > securing the glass in the channel so that it doesn't end up at the bottom of > the tailgate while attempting to roll the rear window down. Second is the > problem of making the regulator arm slots in the sheet metal. I guess that > one could always cut the slots in seperate pieces of sheet metal and have > them welded to the channel section, but from what I hear, welding aluminum > is akin to welding two gum wrappers together. I also seem to remember there > being two pieces of looped round stock, one on either end of the channel > assembly, that guided the channel in the tailgate track. I would bet that > these little loops play a pretty important role in preventing the rear glass > from being shattered while operating the window. Anyway, if anyone out there > has the dimensions, please email them to me or post them to the list. Once I > figure out how to make a new one, I will let everyone know. > > 4.) Another IRT the aux fuel tank mod....instead of using a dual filler > neck, why not just use the stock filler neck assembly with a 1.5" wye valve? > It will save the body from the abuse of a hole saw and make the whole thing > look stock. > > Anyway, if anyone has any ideas or comments, I would be happy to hear them. > I am still working on getting some pics online so I can post them for > viewing/laughs. > Have a good weekend. > Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 23:25:26 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Diesel for Dawg At 03:41 PM 1/5/01 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: >John, > >In the late '80's, Volvo had a turbodiesel straight 6 and 4spd auto >trans that came from European Isuzu trucks. You might consider Isuzu as >an option, or look at their offerings, they make a lot of industrial >diesels that stress fuel efficiency and reliability. > >- Landon wasn't the six in the Volvo's a VW? I know that Volvo Diesels had head gasket problems... everyone I knew told me to avoid them... john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 23:30:44 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: color samples... >From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA-ING)" >Subject: fsj: Paint >Hello again.... >Well, my Wag will be ready for painting within the next couple of >weeks...YEESSSSS!!!!! I was doing some pointless surfing and decided to look >for color chips online...I found NADA, ZIP, NOTHING. So, I figure that I >might be able to find what I was looking for on the Wagoneers.com site. I >found something close, but no cigar. The color samples posted to the site >are for the 1988 model year (I think). I found a clolr that LOOKS like it >matches my OEM paint, but I am not sure. I was wondering if someone has the >color codes for the 1981 model year. My Wag is a really dark blue metallic >color. I like this color and want to repaint the entire truck exactly as it >was done at the factory. Please help.... >Ken I bought samples for a number of years... I can scan 'em in and put 'em on my server when I get some time. Right now the '83 and '88 chips are up there... somewhere.. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 00:06:25 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: I was thinkin' the same thing... >From: "Josh Ingram" >Subject: Re: xj: Jeep news... > > > Originally scheduled to end production in November 2000, the > > > company continued production in order to meet demand in the market >place. >What is wrong with this picture? exactly... someone needs a plate glass belly button. ;) This is pretty common in today's business world. I don't understand it... They delayed cancelling it because it was selling so well... well, duh, don't stop!!! It's a moneymaker... the tooling paid for itself years ago... why not continue it??? If the XJ model is so successful, defined the market and continues to sell, why quit??? I can understand why they quit selling SJ's. What they should do is resurrect the SJ model with updated driveline, keeping body on frame and leaf springs, but using fuel injection, 4 wheel discs, the new gerorotor/quaddrive setup, airbags, lift gates and so on... oh well... like most of us were going to run out and buy a new one... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 08:16:15 -0800 From: "J. Grammer" Subject: fsj: Re: Body Swaps >Date: 20 Dec 00 11:45:53 MST >From: Michael Shimniok >Subject: Re: [Re: [RE: Re: fsj: Cherokee Xfer Case Mystery]] > >How hard is that, and what's involved? IOW, what tool would I use >to lift the body and hold it 'up' while rolling a new frame under? > >Michael I may have missed it, but I didn't see anyone weigh in on this. I did a Travelall body swap in my 2 car garage. Pulled the front clip complete(nice thing about the IH design) to remove interference with the engine. Jacked up the body(bottle jacks and lots of fiddling with blocks)rear first, then front and put 4x6 wood beams across under the body(big chunks of 2x6 to spread the load along the bottom of the rockers), supported by jackstands. By taking the body up 'til it scraped on the garage door opener, I got enough clearance to roll the chassis out to the rear by deflating the tires mostly. The chassis sat in the driveway(my neighbors used to love me) while the rusty body from the donor was disassembled with a hot wrench. The donor chassis went back in the shop for detailing, then I did the same jack and roll procedure on the transplant recipient and rolled the new chassis under it. If you wanted to keep the body from the donor truck, you'd need a minimum of 3 bays with this method, but 4 would be much better. Jim ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1173 **************************