From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 24 15:27:24 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, January 24 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1187 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: in recent news... fsj: Re: AMC 401's fsj: new engine.. Re: fsj: No Hot Flashes Here fsj: Re: Water Pump fsj: Re: in recent news... fsj: Re: in recent news... fsj: Gage problems fsj: Strange Steering Re: fsj: No Hot Flashes Here fsj: Strange Steering Re: fsj: Strange Steering fsj: more on gauges fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:27:19 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: in recent news... the latest issue of Four Wheeler hit my mailbox yesterday, had XJ's at Moab and news on the new KJ, which is bigger than an XJ??? it looks smaller, but the wheelbase is 3 inches longer! bigger backseat, etc... strange.... They're axing the xj mid year, but just recalled 6,000 employees to build more, go figure: http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22757&dm=yes (sounds like someone needs a plate glass belly button or figure out how to operate a complex device like a calculator... ;) and the latest NRA magazine has an interesting, must read article on what's happening in California, they call the article something like "massive civil disobedience" or something like that. Current historical proof that registration leads to confiscation... later, john - -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- An article in the Seattle Washington Post-Intelligencer dealt with accidental deaths caused by physicians (based on research by Laura Key) Number of physicians in the US - 700,000 Accidental deaths caused /year - 120,000 Accidental deaths/physician = 0.171 based on readily available statistics found on the internet: Number of gun owners in the US = 80,000,000 Number of accidental gun deaths/year (all age groups) = 1,500 Accidental deaths/gun owner = 0.0000188 THEREFORE, one may derive the following: That Doctors are approximately 9000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Always remember what Mark Twain said about statistics... :) - -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- http://www.wagoneers.com/pages/History/GunControl-the-proven-record.html - -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- It's about Freedom... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:53:10 -0800 From: "J. Grammer" Subject: fsj: Re: AMC 401's >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:04:08 -0500 >From: "Jason Colavecchia" >Subject: 258 as standard engine in scouts > >AMC 401 (v8) > >IMHO i'd take any of the IH motors over the AMC ones. The 401, in >particular, wasn't especially known for it's fuel economy (or lack >thereof.) As much as it's tempting to bash on the 'poor cousin' to the IH 392(timing chain, 130lbs lighter, etc..), here's some cold hard facts from IH literature I recently acquired: Dyno tests per SAE J245, performed by IH engineering 9/72 - trying to compare as closely as possible, let's see the #'s for 392 vs. AMC 401(V-400 in IH parlance) in dual exhaust trim...BTW these are NET #'s as dyno'd... IH V-392 189BHP -at- 3600RPM 309 lb-ft -at- 2800RPM AMC 401(IH V-400) 210BHP -at- 4000RPM 325 lb-ft -at- 2600RPM You could make a case for the HP #'s being a result of the higher redline on the 401, but those torque figures don't lie, baby! And....the IH torque curve drops pretty quickly from its peak, while the AMC curve has lots of useable torque all the way to redline. You want to add insult to injury? The AMC is a 2bbl vs the IH 4bbl! That's right, IH only offered the 401 with a Holley 2210. Who knows what the #'s would have been with a 4150/4160 as spec'd on the 392..... Don't get me wrong here, I'm as loyal a binder fan as you'll find, I just sort of stumbled into 401 ownership and I think this is all very interesting. :) BTW, I haven't found any particular difference in fuel economy between the 401 and a 392 in the relatively un-smogged state of my trucks(my 401 is in a '64 T-all). OTOH, I clearly remember my dad selling a 401 equipped J-20 after a few months of ownership because it got 7-8 MPG. I suspect that the full time FWD and the smog tuning had a large hand in that, along with the mostly around town driving. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 02:36:35 -0600 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: fsj: new engine.. Well yes the 12' is across.. I also am try to find or figure out a rail system, so i can move it backwards and forwards as well.. two days ago I almost bought a cheaper chain hoist at this once a year like sale that is mobile and has mostly tools and guy stuff... that comes to town only 5 days out of the year. in a big tent... But I was to late.. sold out.. along with a lot of things! They where 25.00 bucks.. ( But I also got a bunch of goodies though at great prices!) However , I did find one at http://www.harborfreight.com for about 50.00 I am try to decide to rent a cherry picker or go with the chain hoist.. Or should I buy a cherry picker? I don't think I would use it much though.. I am starting a lawn care business in the next two months, here in Huntsville AL. The weather will hopefully be warming up soon.. remember . it is spring earlier them most people here.. I also have to get a lawnmower( commercial) and other stuff to start off with.. Another question.. I have a hitch on the back bumper, and it has hauled some light stuff.. but should I worry about getting a Receiver type Hitch? thanks! R.J. 80 J10 Honcho Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:13:39 -0000 From: "Greg Boswell" Subject: Re: new engine.. y to put a engine in.. a cherry picker.. or a > chain type wench overhead? I only have 2x6's for rafter's... > And..should I need to take off the hood as well? The space is limited > in my tiny shed.. 12x20... > I'll let the x perts answer the other stuff but I'll take a shot at this one. I'll assume that your 2x6 joists run in the 12 ft direction and are 2' on center. Lay a 2x12-10' perpendicular to your joists. You can chain your winch, come along to that and should be ok. And yes, take off your hood. Me, I'd get it ready to pull in the shed then push it out and pull it with a portable hoist. Greg Boswell 87 GW Big Grin Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:16:25 -0600 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: new engine.. Well I am back online... I will be getting my new engine for my 80 J10 Honcho, from a company called blue chip motors ... ( I can't find the URL right now..) in OK. for about 829.00 as a long block.. shipping it here to Huntsville AL. and putting it in with the help of a friend. Jim,.. what was that type of Piston you said to make sure they put in it.. again? Varelli.. or something like that.. the warranty is 1 year/unlimited miles Now.. there is a place in Nashville Tn. that sells a long block, for 1,300 with the normal warranty and for a additional 129.00 you can add a life time Warranty, minus shipping and labor.. which is the better deal? they both said the use federal -mogul parts... what else should I ask .. and look for? Also what is a good way to put a engine in.. a cherry picker.. or a chain type wench overhead? I only have 2x6's for rafter's... And..should I need to take off the hood as well? The space is limited in my tiny shed.. 12x20... Thanks! R.J. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:11:37 -0500 From: "B. C." Subject: Re: fsj: No Hot Flashes Here Greetings Jamie! JPhil78888-at-aol.com wrote: > Admiral "Coluch." > > How good are you at basic electronics? > I do wires not circuits. > > It sounds like your easiest choice would be to constroct a control unit. You > basicly need a thermal couple, a comparitor, something to turn the base plate > on/off and some support circuitry. > Sure,,,,, What did he just say? > > I don't know anything about your heated base plate, but I would assume that > I don't either; I'm not even sure if it is worth the bucks to purchase this thing. The carb. doctor said it draws 15 AMPS when it is fired up. So it has a good size hunk of wire coming off of it. > it would have a thermal couple built into it. Then you may need: > 1. a couple of operational amplifiers to condition the signal > 2. a comparitor to compare the signal from the thermal couple with some type > of adjuster (potentiometer ?) > 3. then a relay or something that can handle the power required to operate > the heated base plate > > Again this would require some basic electronics and time. > Ray Drouliard in MI would love a project like this one. > > Otherwise, maybe you could isolate and modify a control unit for an electric > cooling fan. > > > Later, > Jamie "give me a book and I'll figure it out, it just takes awhile" Phillips > > '73 J4000 - -- Until The Next Dimension, Admiral "Coluch." Starfleet Headquarters Ohio Post END TRANSMISSION.................................... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 07:55:13 EST From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Water Pump Wow. If I lived near Des Moines, I'd invite you and your FSJ to my lair and we would swap this out. Pumps aren't really hard, just a pain to drain the coolant. I usually flush my engine and pull and flush the radiator at the same time. Those of us with garages feel remorse for those who don't or have carports only. ;-) - --Vince '81 wagoneer In a message dated 1/14/01 9:12:36 AM Central Standard Time, BLW1540 writes: > I'm finally "biting the bullet" and taking it to a garage on the other side > of town on Monday to have the water pump replaced. (The good news is that > the city bus route which runs about a block from home goes right by his > front door, so that alleviates the problem of getting back home after I > drop it off and getting back to pick it up; and the other good news is that > he'll have it in and out that day, rather than it sitting for who knows how > long until he gets to it, as was the situation with the mechanic within > walking distance of home I was using until he sold his shop property to a > nearby church.) > > Bruce Wilson > 84 GW > Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:08:36 -0500 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: fsj: Re: in recent news... > (sounds like someone needs a plate glass belly button or figure > out how to operate a complex device like a calculator... ;) Didn't you get your NCO operation a couple decades back? I could have sworn that you had your plate glass bellybutton properly installed :-) Ray Drouillard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:30:01 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: in recent news... At 12:08 PM 1/24/01 -0500, Ray (lists) wrote: > > (sounds like someone needs a plate glass belly button or figure > > out how to operate a complex device like a calculator... ;) > >Didn't you get your NCO operation a couple decades back? I could have sworn >that you had your plate glass bellybutton properly installed :-) > >Ray Drouillard yeah, but I'm not driving... I'm just keeping the CAD systems purring like a kitten... (of course since it's all UNIX that's not as hard as you might think... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:46:18 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: Gage problems Hi all, Revisit to my gage problem: just a reminder, all gages seem to be registering about 1/2 of the actual value. List members say it is the voltage regulator (in the temp switch) for the switches, ok, I can believe that. Here's the problem...first of all, dealer parts guy had a hard time figuring out which gage setup I had (something to do with whether or not I had a tach {I don't}), and then told me the temp gage was $80.00! Surely this cannot be right. My set up is three large round areas in dash: left most has small curved gas gage at top and small curved temp gage at bottom, middle is speedo, right has small curved oil pressure at top and small curved ammeter at bottom (I can send a scanned sketch as JPEG if needed). Tank is an '82 Chero Laredo, 360 V8, manual. If that price IS correct, is there any way to purchase just the voltage regulator and replace it. I am mechanically and electrically competent. I know that most voltage regulators are very cheap items unless this is some really high current job (can't think of why it might be). If that price is not correct, maybe he just didn't ID the correct part and any help with a part number would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:53:33 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: Strange Steering Hi All, New problem cropped up with Tank. After letting him sit for awhile, he has become my primary vehicle again (see signature). Both front tires developed lumps. This, of course, made steering difficult (pulling to right) and made it feel like I was driving over whoop-d-doos when going slow. Well I've replaced the tires. Now Tank's steering is VERY strange. When sitting still (motor running) you can turn the steering wheel and the response is almost immediate (virtually NO play in wheel). However, when driving it feels like there is about a 1/2 turn of play in the wheel. It takes that much of a turn to feel any response and I am continually correcting while going straight. When I am making a turn it feels like the car is drifting (i.e. I turn the wheel and feels like the car is turning, but shortly into the turn I suddenly realize I'm not turning as quickly as I though I was and have to quickly correct). What's up with this? Any thoughts? Thanks. Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:42:28 -0500 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: Re: fsj: No Hot Flashes Here > I don't either; I'm not even sure if it is worth the bucks to purchase this > thing. The carb. doctor said it draws 15 AMPS when it is fired up. So it has a > good size hunk of wire coming off of it. > > > it would have a thermal couple built into it. Then you may need: > > 1. a couple of operational amplifiers to condition the signal > > 2. a comparitor to compare the signal from the thermal couple with some type > > of adjuster (potentiometer ?) > > 3. then a relay or something that can handle the power required to operate > > the heated base plate > > > > Again this would require some basic electronics and time. > > > > Ray Drouliard in MI would love a project like this one. Drive on up here and we'll do it. After we're done, we can flop some steaks on the grill. Does Dom like steak? If he's like my two young-uns, he prefers hotdogs :-) There are other options - such as taking an old house thermostat apart and using it to operate an automotive relay (from Radio Shack). You just have to make sure that you don't use one of those mercury switch type thermostats. If you're willing to go with a circuit that takes a little longer to turn off, you can get a CTO switch and have the carb heater turn off when the coolant temperature reaches a certain temperature. Ray Drouillard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:37:56 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: Strange Steering Update: Sorry all. I was a little off. Upon looking at things closer it appears that there is only about 1/4 turn of 'play' in the steering wheel, and it occurs all the time. I seem to remember someone mentioning an adjustment that could be made at the steering box to remove the play. Anyone able to fill me in on that? Thanks. Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:13:52 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Strange Steering Roy Kesmodel said: {- New problem cropped up with Tank. After letting him sit for awhile, he has {- become my primary vehicle again (see signature). Both front tires developed {- lumps. This, of course, made steering difficult (pulling to right) and made {- it feel like I was driving over whoop-d-doos when going slow. Well I've {- replaced the tires. Now Tank's steering is VERY strange. When sitting {- still (motor running) you can turn the steering wheel and the response is {- almost immediate (virtually NO play in wheel). However, when driving it {- feels like there is about a 1/2 turn of play in the wheel. It takes that {- much of a turn to feel any response and I am continually correcting while {- going straight. When I am making a turn it feels like the car is drifting {- (i.e. I turn the wheel and feels like the car is turning, but shortly into {- the turn I suddenly realize I'm not turning as quickly as I though I was and {- have to quickly correct). I'd check to make sure the steering box (the lower part, not the pump up top) is bolted to the frame securely. I recently had fairly similar problems in my '88, and then it got grammatically worse over a couple days, to the point where the steering wheel was totally loose and could end up pointing anywhere (even straight down) to make the vehicle go straight. I looked underneath and found out the steering box had actually ripped the metal securing it to the frame. (It's a brace made of three rectangles of metal put together into a triangle. The brace is welded onto the frame, and the steering box I think bolts onto it -- the steering box is the only thing on that mounting brace.) It probably worked the top bolts loose awhile back, and then when it finally ripped the bottom area out was when it suddenly got really bad. If they're just loose bolts, just tighten everything up. If it's ripped the brace like mine did, then if you can weld at all, you should be able to fix it yourself. I can't, and the shop charged me about three hours' labor to fix it -- I think it should've only taken one or two, but it's an other case where they've got you. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. -- A. Whitney Brown - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:17:29 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: more on gauges As long as people are talking about the early 80s style gauge cluster again, I've got a funny little story: A friend has a full-size '83 Bronco, and he once tried to adjust his odometer (for perfectly honest reasons), but he discovered it was virtually tamper-proof. I want to take apart my new (used) gauge cluster on the '74 to see if I can reset the odometer to be accurate to this Jeep -- it reads about 9Kmi higher than the one I took out. Hadn't broken clear into it yet, but I checked the manual I have for a '76 -- and it has a section on how to manually set the odometer, with a picture and everything. I showed it to my friend and we both laughed. :) (Though I'm going to need to put in a different speedo gear since I changed to a bigger tire...) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "RAM DISK" is not an installation procedure! - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:54:38 -0500 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... Remember that we're talking about net power. That's what the wheels see after a lot of power has been lost in the transmission, transfer case, and differential. It makes comparing vehicles easier, but it'll screw you up if you're thinking about taking a diesel out of a Mercedes and grafting it to a lossy FSJ driveline. Even if you keep the Mercedes transmission, you're still running it through the t-case. If you try the above mentioned swap, you'll probably be disappointed by the power that you actually get to the back wheels. A long time ago, I read that automatic transmissions are about 80% efficient, and manuals run in the 90-95% range. Presumably, a t-case will run in the same range. Newer automatics are more efficient. Ray Drouillard - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Morgan To: <1FSJ-at-egroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: RE: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... > Is that correct the AMC 360 is only 128hp -at-3,700rpm 245ftlbs -at-1,600 rpm? > > -----Original Message----- > From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 5:08 PM > To: Ray (lists) > Subject: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... > > > At 03:14 PM 1/23/01 -0500, Ray (lists) wrote: > > >----- Original Message ----- > >Subject: Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... > > > > > it sures seems like a lot of work to convert and build an engine to > > > run on more expensive fuel that is harder to obtain.... :) > > > >This is coming from a person who is constantly coming up with all kinds of > >hare-brained schemes to add diesel to a Jeep, replace a perfectly fine five > >speed with an automatic, stuff an old French FI system into an FSJ, graft a > >weak Benz diesel onto an FSJ (talk about a 25% decrease in power!), and too > >many schemes to remember! > > > ideas... thoughts... when the pencil meets the paper and we check > the bank account that's where dreams disappear into vapor... ;) > > But for any engineer or designer, the fun is in the chase, the pursuit > of the idea. Actually doing it is often anti-climatic... :) > > As far as a Turbo Diesel Benz motor being a decrease in power, I > don't think so... check out the specs, for THREE LITERS of engine > compared to FIVE.NINE liters of AMC boat anchor, I think you'll be > somewhat surprised. > > 3.0L MBz Turbo Diesel (81-85): 125hp -at-4350rpm 170ftlbs -at- 2,400 rpm > 4.2L (around 115hp) > 5.9L AMC 1981: 128hp -at-3,700rpm 245ftlbs -at-1,600 rpm > 4.0L AMC 1988: 177hp -at-4,500rpm 224ftlbs -at-2,500 rpm > > now, let's compare fuel economy for each of these engines in there > respective vehicles: 24-30mpg, 14-18mpg, 8 to 13 mpg (maybe) and 15-19mpg > > of course the other factor is when the power is produced, for a Jeep > obviously you want your power as low of an rpm as possible... > > well, all of your schemes sound interesting and I hope they work > well, and then I hope you can market them to the rest of us and > others and become wonderfully wealthy for your vision. > > > >;-) > > > >You don't know the half of it! You want to hear some hare-brained schemes? > >Try this on for size: > > > >Step 1: Graft a TH700R4 to my NP229 by sticking a 50% overdrive unit > between > >them. This will give me some really tall gearing for the road (too tall), > >plus an intermediate step when I'm in low range. > > > >Step 2: Get a pair of those new cable locker thingies (I have 44s on both > >ends!) along with 4.11 or 4.52 (or whatever) gears. This will make my > >overdrive actually useful for normal driving, and give me a really good low > >end. > > > >Step 3: Put airbag springs on all four corners. Put Edelbrock shocks on > all > >four corners. This will solve the "saggin wagon" problem and give me > ground > >clearance when I need it. It'll also be great for towing trailers and > >carrying loads. > > > >Step 4: Cut out the fenders and get some bigger tires. I'll want to do > this > >very soon after step two, and plan my axle ratio accordingly. > > > >Step 5: Graft a liquid propane injection unit to the Jeep and run it dual > >fuel. Use one of those injector computers (I forgot the name) that can run > >about 16 injectors and do lots of other things for you. > > > >Step 6: Get some CNG injectors and program the computer to use CNG most of > >the time, and switch to liquid propane when I want to get some real power > >out of it. > > > >Step 7: Rebuild the engine to run best on propane/methane (~14:1 > >compression). Keep a small gas tank and water injector for emergencies. > >Keep the Pro-Jection brain as a backup unit. > > > >Step 8: Modify the exhaust to run outside the frame rails. Use the space > >where there was a muffler, and the space where there was a gasoline tank > for > >CNG and LPG tanks. Use a STRONG skid plate, with some heavy foam padding > >between the plate and the tanks. > > > >Step 9: Get a natural gas compressor so that I can get the stuff cheap from > >the mains. > > > >Step 11: Make a digester so that I can turn garbage into methane and run my > >FSJ for free. > > > >And... for my next FSJ, I'll do the same thing, except: > > > >1) Get some deuce-and-a-half axles from that company that advertises in the > >4x4 rags. Create a multilink suspension system with airbags. > > > >2) Get a Richmond Overdrive 6-speed transmission. > > > >3) Do all of the same stuff to the engine. > > > >And finally... > >Do the above to a truck and make a go-anywhere camper... > >Or... > >Build a camper on a deuce-and-a-half. > >Ray Drouillard > >(They laughed at Fulton, too) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > To Subscribe send an email to: 1FSJ-subscribe-at-egroups.com > To Unsubscribe send an email to: 1FSJ-unsubscribe-at-egroups.com Visit Our > homepage: http://www.egroups.com/group/1FSJ > > > > To Subscribe send an email to: 1FSJ-subscribe-at-egroups.com > To Unsubscribe send an email to: 1FSJ-unsubscribe-at-egroups.com Visit Our homepage: http://www.egroups.com/group/1FSJ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1187 **************************