From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jan 25 15:31:18 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, January 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1190 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Gage problems fsj: RE: Gage problems Re: fsj: more on gauges fsj: I NEED HELP fsj: tires or treads for tank? Re: fsj: I NEED HELP (Update) Re: fsj: I NEED HELP (Update) and fixed fsj: Parts for BIGJEEP fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix Re: fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix (Someone save this write up) fsj: Re: Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... fsj: Re: vaccum diagram fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... RE: fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix (Someone save this write up) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Gage problems A: You could have poor grounding on the body to battery negative too. The circuit board on the back gets corroded connectors which changes values too. I had to hook a fresh ground to Elmo to have working gauges. I also have working gauges from the '84 GW I parted (everything but the speedo). My new speedo goes to 160 (it was kmph, but it will read mph when I am done! 80 won't cover Blackie's capability!) From: Roy Kesmodel Hi all, Revisit to my gage problem: just a reminder, all gages seem to be registering about 1/2 of the actual value. List members say it is the voltage regulator (in the temp switch) for the switches, ok, I can believe that. Here's the problem...first of all, dealer parts guy had a hard time figuring out which gage setup I had (something to do with whether or not I had a tach {I don't}), and then told me the temp gage was $80.00! Surely this cannot be right. My set up is three large round areas in dash: left most has small curved gas gage at top and small curved temp gage at bottom, middle is speedo, right has small curved oil pressure at top and small curved ammeter at bottom (I can send a scanned sketch as JPEG if needed). Tank is an '82 Chero Laredo, 360 V8, manual. If that price IS correct, is there any way to purchase just the voltage regulator and replace it. I am mechanically and electrically competent. I know that most voltage regulators are very cheap items unless this is some really high current job (can't think of why it might be). If that price is not correct, maybe he just didn't ID the correct part and any help with a part number would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Roy ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:18:29 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: RE: Gage problems Thanks. Do you have the URL's for those sites? Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > -----Original Message----- > From: michel balea [SMTP:mbalea-at-hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 8:28 PM > To: Rkesmodel-at-morganres.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: Gage problems > > specialty parts in Belmont or San Carlos, Ca -they have a web > site....sells > the temp gauge remanufactured by crown automotive... you can also find a > crown automotive distributor crown has a site too, they are $25 i > think.... > > Cheers > > Michel > 74 wag > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:53:57 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: more on gauges Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) said: {- A: I just set the drill on medium speed and let it roll about -at-100 mph {- (it doesn't work backwards BTW) That's still pretty slow, and I'd have to rig something to hold them up together. And I'm 99% sure mine _was_ working backward... It's a '74 if that makes a difference. As far as honesty goes, mine doesn't even matter -- it's over 100K, so the govt. doesn't care how much over it is. And this one doesn't have a 100Ks digit (IIRC), so it reads 18K right now anyway (and should read 9K) -- nobody's going to believe it's really only at 009,000, so the best I could do if I were trying to cheat somebody would be to roll it back to the 70-90K range and hope they believe it. Anything less, nobody in their right mind would believe simply because the exterior isn't in wonderful shape and the interior is much worse. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:02:45 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: I NEED HELP I made some changes yesterday and am dealing with VERY bad brakes now. As I prepare to install the MSD kit I had built up, I needed to install the parts in stages so yesterday I installed the coil - I took all the wires off the OEM coil and snipped them from the "clip" on the OEM coil and using new hardware secured them to my MSD Blaster 3 Coil. After install, no probs and the GW started up fine (although I hadn't checked by driving it). Since the coil worked and the GW started up, I began to install the MSD 8.5 cables, very carefully, into the 360. NOW, after install, I am getting stumbling which I assume is/are bad connection(s) but the main problem is it feels as though I have no brakes. The pedal will not go down very far at all - almost as if there isn't any power to them - What can I do to fix this? I may just rip out the wires and go with the Napa brand to see if it helps. I need my truck working so please reply if you have an idea. I'll be checking replys bout every 20 minutes or so. TIA Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:13:35 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: tires or treads for tank? Ok, well here's where I commit FSJ sacrilege several times over. Main sacrilege: I rarely go off road so I am running all terrain tires (Goodrich A/T 31X10.50 {45 - 50psi}). Sacrilege #2: I'm not sure what tranny, transfer case, or ever rear end I have. Here's what I think or have been told: Tranny - Borg-Warner T76, Transfer case P209, Rear end Dana 20. Here's the VIN 1JCNM17D6CT054090. As far as I know its all stock except for the Holley 4160. Anyone want to enlighten me. BTW, I call him Tank because he's big and heavy and people seem to be reluctant to pull out in front of him (guess they are afraid he will 'blow them away' {probably would too}). The route I must drive to work averages 2 major wrecks a week during busy hour (two lane uncontrolled access highway that no one wants to go 55 on) so the above is a definite plus. Soapbox time--- What's so ridiculous is that the entire stretch of highway is about 20 miles. Here's the math: 20 miles/55mph*60min/hour=21.81 minutes, 20 miles/65mph*60min/hour=18.46 minutes. So, assuming you could travel the whole distance at 65 (not too likely during rush hour) at best you would save about 3 minutes. In reality, people tailgate me (until I tromp on the brakes a few times {something about that big rear end with the trailer hitch sticking out at radiator level makes them back off}), pass me at VERY dangerous spots (shaking their fists and screaming as I refuse to go over 55), and then I follow them all the way into town (at 55). Result: they have all kinds of increased stress (bad for the heart) and put their lives (and others) at risk to save maybe 30 seconds. Life's too short. Actually, the wife has made me quit tromping on the brakes to make people back off. She says someone will get p*ssed off and shoot me one day. So now I just lightly touch the brake pedal to turn the lights on a few times. If that doesn't work I allow my speed to gradually drop about 10 mph for awhile and then speed back up. If that doesn't work I just let'um tailgate. It will them paying for a new car and hospital bills with me driving off unharmed if I HAVE to make an emergency stop. Sorry, I'll climb down off the soapbox now, just some of my pet peeves. Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:55:03 -0600 > From: "Landon Tesar" > Subject: fsj: tires or treads for tank? > > Roy, what kind of tires did you get, and what pressure do they have ? > (for grins what trans. and transfer case do you have behind your 360, > there may be a T5 in my future) > > - - Landon > '89 GW > ================ > Hi All, > > New problem cropped up with Tank. After letting him sit for awhile, he > has > become my primary vehicle again (see signature). Both front tires > developed > lumps. This, of course, made steering difficult (pulling to right) and > made > it feel like I was driving over whoop-d-doos when going slow. Well I've > replaced the tires. Now Tank's steering is VERY strange. When sitting > still (motor running) you can turn the steering wheel and the response is > almost immediate (virtually NO play in wheel). However, when driving it > feels like there is about a 1/2 turn of play in the wheel. It takes that > much of a turn to feel any response and I am continually correcting while > going straight. When I am making a turn it feels like the car is drifting > (i.e. I turn the wheel and feels like the car is turning, but shortly into > the turn I suddenly realize I'm not turning as quickly as I though I was > and > have to quickly correct). > > What's up with this? Any thoughts? > > Thanks. > > Roy > '82 FSJ Cherokee 'Tank' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:01:40 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: I NEED HELP (Update) I found that the vac hose to the power brake booster (which comes from the mani) had popped out! Soooo, I'm gonna re-install the msd wires AGAIN, and see if I still have probs. I knew it had to be something besides changing wires to cause such erratic behavior - but as many of you know: Re: FSJ's - fix something and have something else break! Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:31:59 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: I NEED HELP (Update) and fixed After putting the vac hose to the brake booster back in (comes from front mani nipple) and putting the MSD wires back in - I knew those MFers weren't the cause! - the 360 is running great again. What a POS that vac hose is. I never saw it vcome off in nearly 4 years of owning the wag but it seems I must have popped it off while replacing the rear DS plug wires. FWIW, this hose connects to the booster with a plastic "neck" with opposed "ridges which are designed to keep the "neck" in place. overall length of the "neck is about 1 inch and it concerns me that this thing came out so easy. If you're experiencing vac probs check here, as it would be the absolute LAST place I would have checked for a leak. In-line vac guage went from rough 20 lbs/si to steady 22 lbs/si at cold start/idle...FYI. > I found that the vac hose to the power brake booster (which comes from the > mani) had popped out! Soooo, I'm gonna re-install the msd wires AGAIN > Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:48:35 -0600 From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA TX)" Subject: fsj: Parts for BIGJEEP Well, fellow FSJers, the engine transplant surgery on my 81 Wag is nearing completion and the results look very promising. I looked for the bushing that everyone was talking about (the one that can destroy a tranny) and I didn't see it in the new engine. The engine was rebuilt by the local community college, so I rather doubt that the bushing was replaced. Let's hope not. I ordered a complete MSD ignition system...AMC Pro-Billet distributor, MSD TFI coil, and MSD Digital-6 control box. I can't wait to get the whole thing installed. I took the stock exhaust manifolds out and cleaned all the rust/mud off of them. I also removed the useless heat riser and the butterfly valve. They will go in this weekend and the engine will be complete. With the engine in place, it is now time to concentrate on the exterior of the vehicle. Some of the body work has already been done, but there are some sheet metal parts that will require replacement. Here is a list: 1. rocker panels on both sides 2. rear quarter panels (the lower part) on both sides 3. floor panels in the bed and rear seat areas The bed floor panels are a snap...just pop rivet some stainless sheet metal in place, sand/paint, and cover with astroturf. The other floor panels are just as simple to fix. However, the other panels are a bit tougher to repair. Does anybody know where (other than a junkyard) I could find new rocker panels and rear quarter panel sections? BTW, I managed to find another Wag in Rockport that had an intact rear window and window track assembly...NO RUST!!! I couldn't believe it. Another small concern is the dash pad. Mine isn't in really bad shape, but it is not the original pad as evidenced by the color (baby blue). I would like to replace it with a black dash pad. I have heard that there is a way to paint the thing without having the paint peel off. Any ideas on this? So, with that, I should head back to the grind. Hope everyone has a great weekend. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:51:09 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix First of all, my guess is that when you replaced the wires you inadvertently changed the firing order. That will cause your engine to run very rough - sometimes to not run at all. Your brake problem would be related to that because when the engine is running on the wrong firing order your manifold vacuum will be nearly non-existent. When you have no vacuum to your power brake booster you won't have any power assist on the brakes which will make them not work very well. Check for vacuum leaks first, and check to make sure that the large vacuum hose is still connected to the brake booster (that is a common problem after working on the engine cause it's easy to accidentally disconnect). Here's how to check the firing order and fix it if it's off (if you don't find any obvious vacuum problems). The following instructions sound very complicated and intimidating, but this is a very easy procedure if you follow the instructions and do things very carefully and slowly. During this procedure, if you notice any worn or burnt parts you should replace them before continuing. Reference Items: Firing Order AMC 360cid : 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 Distributor Rotation : Clockwise Drivers Side cylinder numbering (front to back) : 1 3 5 7 Passenger Side cylinder numbering (front to back) : 2 4 6 8 I hope the following diagram stays intact: Pass Driver 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 -> Rotation of distributor 5 7 6 O O 2 O O O O 3 O O 1 4 8 <- Rotation of distributor Note: on the above diagram, #1 may not be in the same position as on your vehicle - I don't remember exactly which direction #1 is so the above diagram is for example purposes only. 1) Disconnect the battery. 2) Remove all 8 spark plugs to make the engine easier to turn over by hand. 3) Put your thumb over the #1 spark plug hole and rotate the engine in the direction of normal running rotation with a socket wrench on the center crank pulley. There are other methods of rotating the engine manually, but I will not mention them here since they are not very safe. (you can check the rotation direction by watching the engine from the front while someone "bumps" the key to cause the engine to rotate slightly with the starter before you disconnect the battery). 4) You will feel air pressure on your thumb when you have rotated the engine to the compression stroke on calendar #1. Continue rotating the engine until the #1 piston is at the very top (Top Dead Center or TDC) on the compression stroke. Once you know you are compressing on calendar #1, you can use a long screwdriver as a feeler for the piston to know when it is at the very top, but be careful not to get the screwdriver jammed between the piston and the spark plug hole. Also, be very careful of the threads in the spark plug hole to not damage them. 5) Now, re-install the spark plugs, and reconnect the spark plug wires making sure that they all reach the distributor with plenty of slack. Make sure you do not turn the engine at all or you will have to repeat step #4. 6) Disconnect all the spark plug wires from the distributor cap and remove the cap. Note the direction that the distributor rotor is pointing, and determine which plug wire hole on the cap the rotor points to. This is where the plug wire for calendar #1 goes. Once you determine this you can put the distributor cap back on. If your distributor cap has a 1 molded into it, that should be the hole that you identified (if not you need to check more thoroughly to see what the problem is, because that indicates that you might have a mechanical timing problem). If your distributor cap does not have this molded marking on it then you should mark your distributor cap for future reference. 7) Now, you can re-install the plug wires on the distributor cap by following the firing order above in a clockwise rotation from the #1 position you have identified. 8) Reconnect the battery, make sure you removed the socket wrench from the crank pulley and have retrieved any tools you had under the hood. 9) You should be able to start the truck and it should run fine now. Hope this helps, and gets you back on the road again (stopping too). *============================================* * JC Jones * * 76 Wagoneer (Road Warrior) * * 84 Grand Wagoneer (Eeyore) * * http://www.wagoneer.net * *============================================* > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of > RKH911-at-aol.com > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 9:03 AM > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: I NEED HELP > > > I made some changes yesterday and am dealing with VERY bad brakes > now. As I > prepare to install the MSD kit I had built up, I needed to > install the parts > in stages so yesterday I installed the coil - I took all the > wires off the > OEM coil and snipped them from the "clip" on the OEM coil and using new > hardware secured them to my MSD Blaster 3 Coil. After install, > no probs and > the GW started up fine (although I hadn't checked by driving it). > Since the > coil worked and the GW started up, I began to install the MSD 8.5 cables, > very carefully, into the 360. NOW, after install, I am getting stumbling > which I assume is/are bad connection(s) but the main problem is > it feels as > though I have no brakes. The pedal will not go down very far at > all - almost > as if there isn't any power to them - What can I do to fix this? > I may just > rip out the wires and go with the Napa brand to see if it helps. > I need my truck working so please reply if you have an idea. I'll be > checking replys bout every 20 minutes or so. TIA > > Rob Harrison > 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:04:21 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix (Someone save this write up) JC you were dead on about the vac hose to the brake booster!  I didn't realize that it was so easy to remove.  The write up on firing order goes above and beyond any help I expected - Thank You.  Can someone please save this text on firing order to the server for others to use. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:06:10 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... At 01:34 AM 1/25/01 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: Any dragracer knows you go by NET axle horsepower when determining >your needs, (tire size, etc) and ET! It's what is transferred where the >rubber hits the road! See below for more clarification. huh? Jim, the point/question was whether or not the specs stated and published were at the flywheel or not. I'm 99% certain it is. Yeah, we understand that someone with access to a dyno will worry about net hp, etc. Our friend in Michigan was thinking that the hp specs for the engines were somehow listed for the rear wheel... If that was true you'd see specs for automatics vs. manuals, and you don't... What you are talking about wasn't the issue... john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:16:16 From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: vaccum diagram John, thank you for the link.... this is the one i had but i was missing part with dump valve for the EGR... did not make sense without it. yesterday i rewired with the 74 principle of operations... runs a lot better. Idle was a lot lower.... Just need to switch the AIR pump to carbureted port (as the 84 seems to be running) instead of manifold vaccum ( as the 74 use) which would explain the lower idle speed, aka vaccum leak... but i jumped from 15 to 17 mm Hg Received the stage 2, TS 23.... this thing is a bit higher than the CA 160.... you really need to tight the A/F lid right! As for your rough idle , is your EGR part open, i remember the compression being a bit off.... and sludge hummm pour some very thin oil after you drain the crank case, and use a bend tube with a angled end (IV. needle style connected to a vaccum pump to suck the deposit at the bottom of the pan .... we have to evacuate.... fire alarm went off.... latter Cheers Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:38:52 -0500 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... - ----- Original Message ----- From: Lindel Easley To: <1FSJ-at-egroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 11:35 PM Subject: RE: [1FSJ] Re: fuel costs, and why propane isn't good... John, > Any way, the engineers started > measuring engine horsepower, with all attachments in place, and operating. > > Also, the only way to get a true idea of what an engine is doing in any > given car, is to put it on a chassis dyno, and real world hp/torque measured > at the wheels. What he said :) Ray ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:39:13 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix (Someone save this write up) Thanks for the kind words. I am glad it turned out to be a simple problem and you did not have to take the time to go through the TDC timing procedure. I think from your post that you figured out the problem before my email hit the list anyway, but glad to try and help. I am sure that procedure must already be written up somewhere on one of the sites, but it not - glad to contribute something useful. *============================================* * JC Jones * * 76 Wagoneer (Road Warrior) * * 84 Grand Wagoneer (Eeyore) * * http://www.wagoneer.net * *============================================* > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of > RKH911-at-aol.com > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:04 AM > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: RE: I NEED HELP - Long - How to Fix (Someone save this > write up) > > > JC you were dead on about the vac hose to the brake booster! I didn't > realize that it was so easy to remove. The write up on firing order goes > above and beyond any help I expected - Thank You. Can someone please save > this text on firing order to the server for others to use. > > > > Rob Harrison > 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1190 **************************