From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jan 30 13:11:17 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, January 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1195 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1194 [Fwd: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1194] fsj: Strange Steering (update) fsj: weekend mini-projects fsj: parts and news... fsj: more boring pictures... ;) Re: fsj: Portland trip report Re: fsj: The Cummins 3.9L Re: fsj: Strange Steering (update) Re: fsj: -at-#$%-at-#^% Bushing!!!! Re: [fsj: hard ride] RE: fsj: Strange Steering (update) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:13:15 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1194 R.J., OK Thanks. I am now approaching this as a tie rod end at Pitman arm problem and am discussing procedures and options off line with Jim Blair. I will post a synopsis when its all said and done. I may be contacting you shortly for a parts source as I believe we are in the same area (Hsv, AL). About the steering shock. Whoever says it isn't needed has never driven Tank. A couple of years ago I was posting messages for help with a very weird problem. At certain speeds and while making certain turns Tank's would vibrate like a motha'. He would shimmy and shake and when particularly bad it felt like the left REAR tire was trying to jump up off the ground. You really couldn't feel it that bad through the steering wheel. But at it's worse, this almost made me lose control of the vehicle. The back end was jumping and hopping so much I had a hard time holding it on the road (downhill, right turn). Had "professionals" check out the vehicle (jack it up, tug on tires, etc) and none seemed to diagnose the problem. Finally I had a friend of mine ride with me and look out the windows while I reproduced the behavior. He told me that when the shaking was going on, the RIGHT FRONT wheel was wobbling like a ten year old shopping cart. When I checked things out we found that the shock operated in one direction properly but provided NO resistance to movement in the other. Replacing the shock got rid of the problem completely. So, it's definitely not trivial to me. Just thought others might be interested. Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > -----Original Message----- > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:59:12 -0600 > From: Cyber Phoenix > Subject: Re: fsj: Strange Steering (update) > > Also, to some it may be trivial , but it made a difference to me, was to > change the front steering shock. some may say you don't nee it it, but I > say > you do. Mine is much better then it used to be. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:34:48 -0600 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: [Fwd: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1194] What do you think about that John? I remember some time back that this was discussed, about the front steering shock, and you said your son did not need it on his truck. R.J. Return-Path: Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (exim-at-krusty1.krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by betelgeuse.concentric.net (8.8.5/) id OAA26939; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:18:46 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost MX Server] Errors-To: Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 3.15 #4) id 14NJp1-0004GG-00 for fsj-out-at-digest.net; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:18:39 -0500 Message-ID: <0F7C4B2005D9D411A9A000E02914466F0115F0-at-hiob.ecrc.de> From: Roy Kesmodel To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" Subject: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1194 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:13:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roy Kesmodel X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 R.J., OK Thanks. I am now approaching this as a tie rod end at Pitman arm problem and am discussing procedures and options off line with Jim Blair. I will post a synopsis when its all said and done. I may be contacting you shortly for a parts source as I believe we are in the same area (Hsv, AL). About the steering shock. Whoever says it isn't needed has never driven Tank. A couple of years ago I was posting messages for help with a very weird problem. At certain speeds and while making certain turns Tank's would vibrate like a motha'. He would shimmy and shake and when particularly bad it felt like the left REAR tire was trying to jump up off the ground. You really couldn't feel it that bad through the steering wheel. But at it's worse, this almost made me lose control of the vehicle. The back end was jumping and hopping so much I had a hard time holding it on the road (downhill, right turn). Had "professionals" check out the vehicle (jack it up, tug on tires, etc) and none seemed to diagnose the problem. Finally I had a friend of mine ride with me and look out the windows while I reproduced the behavior. He told me that when the shaking was going on, the RIGHT FRONT wheel was wobbling like a ten year old shopping cart. When I checked things out we found that the shock operated in one direction properly but provided NO resistance to movement in the other. Replacing the shock got rid of the problem completely. So, it's definitely not trivial to me. Just thought others might be interested. Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > -----Original Message----- > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:59:12 -0600 > From: Cyber Phoenix > Subject: Re: fsj: Strange Steering (update) > > Also, to some it may be trivial , but it made a difference to me, was to > change the front steering shock. some may say you don't nee it it, but I > say > you do. Mine is much better then it used to be. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:38:53 -0600 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: Strange Steering (update) Resounding this. One of these days I'll remember to change the subject when I reply to the list. > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy Kesmodel > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 1:13 PM > To: 'fsj-at-digest.net' > Subject: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1194 > > R.J., > OK Thanks. I am now approaching this as a tie rod end at Pitman arm > problem and am discussing procedures and options off line with Jim Blair. > I will post a synopsis when its all said and done. I may be contacting > you shortly for a parts source as I believe we are in the same area (Hsv, > AL). > > About the steering shock. Whoever says it isn't needed has never driven > Tank. A couple of years ago I was posting messages for help with a very > weird problem. At certain speeds and while making certain turns Tank's > would vibrate like a motha'. He would shimmy and shake and when > particularly bad it felt like the left REAR tire was trying to jump up off > the ground. You really couldn't feel it that bad through the steering > wheel. But at it's worse, this almost made me lose control of the > vehicle. The back end was jumping and hopping so much I had a hard time > holding it on the road (downhill, right turn). Had "professionals" check > out the vehicle (jack it up, tug on tires, etc) and none seemed to > diagnose the problem. Finally I had a friend of mine ride with me and > look out the windows while I reproduced the behavior. He told me that > when the shaking was going on, the RIGHT FRONT wheel was wobbling like a > ten year old shopping cart. When I checked things out we found that the > shock operated in one direction properly but provided NO resistance to > movement in the other. Replacing the shock got rid of the problem > completely. So, it's definitely not trivial to me. > Just thought others might be interested. > > Roy > '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' > '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' > '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:59:12 -0600 > From: Cyber Phoenix > Subject: Re: fsj: Strange Steering (update) > > > Also, to some it may be trivial , but it made a difference to me, was to > change the front steering shock. some may say you don't nee it it, but I > say > you do. Mine is much better then it used to be. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:09:51 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: weekend mini-projects The story of my weekend mini-projects: Saturday, for the first time in three weeks, the weather was "nice" (it's making up for it now), and I had time to work on the trucks. "Nice" means it was sunny and above 20deg -- might've been 25deg -- and no wind. So a friend came over, and first we took the alternator off my '85 (donor). This was a pain because the lower bolt (the one used for belt adjustment) was stubborn, and came forward in the vehicle. Had to crawl underneath to do it, which is difficult on the '85 -- it's lengthwise on a ridge of ground, and the tires are flat, and since the transfer case is blown (and now the carb's off, and other misc. things), I can't move it without dragging it, which I didn't want to do. Anyway, I was barely able to crawl under the right front corner of the vehicle (BTW, the ground was finally dry underneath, too -- still snow around it, though) and get it. It's also a hard bolt to get to from beneath because of the tie rod and other bars. But I finally got it. And I took the alternator in today to have it rewired (to 90-some amps) and replace all the worn out parts (although it was working fine last time the '85 ran). When I get it back and have another rare day of decent weather and free time, I'm going to put it on the '74; its stock alternator is a 37amp Motorola, and it's either not working or just too weak -- the battery drains quickly and doesn't come back up after running. (I'll be replacing the voltage regulator with the one from the '85, too.) Looks like the bolts and belts should be the same between the two, although the wiring may be a minor challenge (mainly since I don't know much about re-wiring things that weren't made to plug into each other directly). After we got that out, we tackled the starter on the '74. This was easier to get to since the '74 is not on a ridge of ground and has fully inflated 31" tires. However, the top bolt holding the starter on was hiding behind three metal pipes -- two were the ATF lines that go to/from the radiator; not sure what the third is. We finally had to disconnect one of the ATF lines, which gave me just enough travel (while pushing the other lines out of the way) to get 1/6 turn on the bolt with a wrench, then take it off and put it back on to get another 1/6 turn. Once I got the rhythm down, it actually came off quickly, but getting it all in the first place probably took at least an hour, maybe two. (It was really, really bad positioning -- I think they must've not had exactly the same positioning on the lines when they rebuilt the tranny; I hope factory-original ones are better positioned.) After finally removing the starter, we took it inside and had another friend take it apart and show us how to replace the gear without dumping the rest of the starter guts. Having a factory ('76) manual didn't hurt, and I already had the new starter gear. Went back out, put it back on in probably 15min or less, and verified that it cranks _very_ nicely compared to before. In other words, it cranks like it's supposed to instead of getting one or two "hits" and quickly spinning way up and not catching at all. That's not the best description, but I'm sure most of you know what I mean. That was it; can't do any more until I get the alternator back. I hope it's not hard to wire or mount in the '74 -- if the wiring works out ok and the bolts are in the same position, I'm sure putting it in the '74 will be much easier than getting it out of the '85. After that's done, I'll drive the '74 for a week or so and verify it's charging the battery correctly and everything else is running reliably. If it all works out, then I'll take the '88 in to get the right side fixed (a couple minor dents from two different incidents). Then when I get that back, it'll be time to take the '74 to my parents' heated garage to work on the heater, the seats and seatbelts if I can get them off the '85 one of these days, and take it to their local shop to find out details about getting it repainted professionally -- they take a long time, and you pay a lot, but they really do a good job (so you're paying what they're worth). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A computer quote ahead of its time: There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:51:11 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: parts and news... click on the performance section... you'll probably do a doubletake... http://www.kalecoauto.com/ I think I'm gonna order me some of those brake lines to improve performance on the little wagoneer... :) in other news: JAPAN: Toyota to make its own supermini diesel? http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=23012&dm=yes GERMANY: VW to increase diesel engine production http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=23011&dm=yes USA: DaimlerChrysler to cut 20 percent of U.S workforce - WSJ http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22993&dm=yes GERMANY: DaimlerChrysler, Mitsubishi agree to deepen cooperation - - report http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22980&dm=yes USA: Chrysler to cut dealer payments, perks - BusinessWeek http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22979&dm=yes USA: California forges ahead with low-emissions auto rules http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22973&dm=yes GERMANY: Schrempp says won't rush Chrysler revamp - paper http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22970&dm=yes USA: GM to idle eight North American plants in February http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22968&dm=yes GERMANY: DaimlerChrysler may cut 20% of Chrysler jobs - source http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=23009&dm=yes UK: Mercedes fails in David and Goliath legal battle http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=22963&dm=yes john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:52:37 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: more boring pictures... ;) insomnia? I've got the cure: http://wagoneers.com/FOTOS/MISC-fotos/Jan26-2001-Portland/ there would be more but my camera malfunctioned and left me shutterless in an antique shop... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:41:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Portland trip report A: Re: tank switch needed due to gas trouble: That sounds like what Elmo did when the tank sock went to mush while we were on Mt Rainer. Re: the hubs locked. You probably wouldn't have felt quite as much drag if they weren't locked. I could really feel the difference with Elmo! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:48:47 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: The Cummins 3.9L A: Your T5 has the wrong gearing for a diesel, but the NP208 would be fine with it. A couple years ago, I had a 540AT Aliison auto trans off one of those that would have worked well (We gave up trying to put it in a 5 ton '61 Fargo with a 383 hemi. The guy didn't have the $$ for a flywheel balancing job) From: john Hahaha, this is too funny. I joinend this list about a month and a half ago, and started in at the same time trying to find out if the B3.9 would fit in my '84. I even found a new one on eBay (for $2500 no less - -- ouch). What I determined is that it'll fit if you're willing to go to the trouble to MAKE it fit. The problem is that along with the motor, you'll get to replace the transmission (to an NV4500), the xfer case (to an NP241), and put a Dana 44 up front, and either a Dana 44 or 60 in back. It'll be necessary to handle the weight of it, as well as the torque it'll make after a set of injectors and a custom torque plate in the pump. :) Rob - - - 84 Cherokee Chief 2.5L 5sp - - - 01 Dodge RAM 3500 QC 4x4 Cummins HO 6sp if I've already got a Dana 44 in front (83 J10 Stepside), what kind of automatic transmission would work? Would my T-5 be workable? The 3.9L's were used in UPS trucks, right? I stopped by Cummins sales office in Renton years ago and looked at this engine, I think that's what they told me it was used in... it's a heavy motor... john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:55:57 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Strange Steering (update) A: They are definitely a pain to change and should be done with a balljoint press (cheapest one I found was $500!!! OUCH! Still looking for a good used one) but I think RJ meant the tie rod ends. I rap on the sides of the part the tierod goes through with a big hammer (with the nut loose, and NOT on the nut or threads!) to get them apart. From: Cyber Phoenix (snip) To remove the ball joints, you may need a ball joint separator They can be a PITA! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: -at-#$%-at-#^% Bushing!!!! A: If your trans lives ast a week, you'll probably be okay, but usually tightening them together like that busts out the back of the front pump. If you take it apart now, all you'd have to do is replace the pump. Otherwise you replace the whole trans due to metal bits floating through it. From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA TX)" G'Day All Well, I finally finished the Wag engine transplant this weekend. It is bolted in and wired...now I am waiting on the MSD system I ordered. I had to pull the motor back out of the Jeep (after reading Dan's email) becuase the thing wouldn't spin (with a wrench on the crankshaft bolt) after I bolted everything up. When I got the motor out of the truck and looked at the end of the crank, guess what I found...that #%-at-*&&*-at-!!!!!! bushing. I managed to get it out with a screwdriver and a chisel and now everything works fine...I hope. (Will someone PLEASE tell me that I didn't destroy my transmission when I bolted everything together?!?!?) I didn't try to start the engine until AFTER I removed the bushing. Oh well...chalk it up to experience if I did destroy it...but let's hope not. Anyway, once the MSD stuff is in the engine, I have a feeling that it is gonna run like a scalded cat. The motor turns as smoothly as any I have ever seen. Now, it's time to finish making the truck look good. I found the drawings for a set of tube bumpers as well as the drawings for a swing out tire carrier and a set of nerf bars. Here is the link: http://home.online.no/~falmaas/misc.htm The drawings are very detailed and are complete with dimensions, explanations, and material requirements.The author says that the dimensions are for an overseas FSJ, so they may require some adjustments to get them to work right in one of our rigs.They require extensive welding as well, so be prepared. I have already made one modification to these drawings. Instead of using a little piece of steel plate to secure the tire/wheel assembly, I plan to use the spare tire carrier that I removed from the underside of my rig. I'll just weld it to the carrier frame and PRESTO...instant tire carrier...and it will be lockable as well. Ok...I'm off for now. Hope everyone has a good week... Ken ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2001 11:32:20 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: hard ride] 90 Wagoneer? small or large? Makes a big difference. If it is a big truck with leaf springs, what John said. Also: what kind of shocks-- that can make a huge difference. Michael john wrote: > >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:58:42 -0000 > >From: "Barry Clegg" > >Subject: fsj: Suspension help > >I just acquired a new (to me) 90 Wagoneer with about 62K miles. The > >suspension is bone jarring. Even a manhole cover makes your teeth rattle. > >Forgive a stupid question - but is this just the nature of the beast, just > >what to expect of 11 year old springs or something else? > >Ideas would be appreciated. > > doesn't sound right... did someone add add-a-leafs? > how about the tire pressure, it seems like the boys in the tire > shop look at the side of the tire, if it says max pressure 50psi, that's > what they put in it. serious. > > Ok, here's what you look for. are the spring retainers clear of the > end of the springs? do the springs have a natural arch to them? is there > a thicker spring in the pack (add-a-leaf). are the bushing on the > springs cracked or brittle looking? > > my guess is tire pressure or someone stuck in add-a-leafs or one of > this lift kits with new springs that were designed for mack trucks... ;) > > look here for ideas, etc. :) > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Axles-Driveline/Suspension/ > > john > > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: RE: fsj: Strange Steering (update) A: A tie rod fork stertches the shaft on tierods and balljoints, causing failures and damaging boots, which is why I don't use them, and neither will any alignment shop if they know a pickle fork was used. I had a '66 Nova that an alignment shop used one of those on back in the '70s, on almost brand new joints (before I started to do ALL my own work) and as I was coming over the railway overpass bridge and turning the corner in front of Safeway in Mission BC, they both snapped off, and my left fender wa ripped off by the coil springs ejecting free. Since then, shop insurance will NOT cover anybody's repairs done with used parts if they were taken off this way. Ask any auto wrecker and they will tell you that both heat and pickle forks are a no-no! jcjones-at-goldencomputerservice.com wrote: A Tie rod seperator (commonly known as a "pickle fork") is a nice easy way to get tie rod ends loose. There is also a larger one for seperating ball joints too, but that is typically for passenger car's with A style control arms. BTW, you can get a tie rod seperator for about $5.00 and it prevents the damage caused by pounding on it with a hammer. Use the right tool for the job, even though there are many other ways of doing things, they nearly always cause damage or put you at risk for personal injury. *============================================* * JC Jones                                 * * 76 Wagoneer (Road Warrior)               * * 84 Grand Wagoneer (Eeyore)               * * http://www.wagoneer.net                   * *============================================* - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of jim blair Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 11:56 PM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: Strange Steering (update) A: They are definitely a pain to change and should be done with a balljoint press (cheapest one I found was $500!!! OUCH! Still looking for a good used one) but I think RJ meant the tie rod ends. I rap on the sides of the part the tierod goes through with a big hammer (with the nut loose, and NOT on the nut or threads!) to get them apart. From: Cyber Phoenix (snip) To remove the ball joints, you may need a ball joint separator They can be a PITA! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1195 **************************