From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue May 1 16:21:02 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, May 1 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1302 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: New diff work almost completed fsj: RE: more shop stuff Re: fsj: more shop stuff Re: [Re: fsj: woog grain sides repair and headrests for the back seat] fsj: Pix and new homepage URL fsj: Re: Pix and new homepage URL fsj: Re: 258/4.0 Heads fsj: should i stick with the vac diagram under the hood/HDC CTO question fsj: (non-fsj, but some parts swap) '76 Blazer parts going fast! fsj: Klune V Re: fsj: Klune V Re: fsj: Klune V FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:24:06 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: fsj: New diff work almost completed "Differential Doctor" ... Sounds like a Jeep Proctologist.. Pat, I've got 4.09 gears in my J10, and 33" tires are still too small for those gears. I'm still revving pretty high on the highway, I'll eventually be going to 38.5x11.00x15 tires which I think will be a better match for the 4.09 gears on the street. I'm going to handle the super low gearing by running Klune V 4:1 reduction box in front of my QT (If I can find the adapters I need to do it). that will give me the following final ratios at the wheels: 1st gear : 104.28:1 2nd gear : 62.23:1 3rd gear : 42.05:1 In 1st gear with the Klune engaged and the QT in low range, that would make my crawling speed around 5.5mph at 5000rpm. So I would be getting maximum torque with a supercharged 401 (~550 lb/ft) at around 3mph. That ought to make those 38" Super Swamper Boggers climb over things pretty effectively. *============================================* * JC Jones * * 76 Wagoneer (Road Warrior) - Retired * * 84 Grand Wagoneer (Eeyore) * * 79 J10 (Max) - In Development * * http://www.wagoneer.net * *============================================* > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Pat > Hines > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 11:32 PM > To: Jeep List > Subject: Re: fsj: New diff work almost completed > > > The repair shop sent my Jeep over to the > diff specialist, called "The > Differential Doctor", yes really. So the shop > was good enough to know > what to do when they couldn't fix it themselves. > > Then we have Four Wheel Parts Wholesalers > store in Oakland, they do > these things too, but I chose the shop based on > the fact it's closer and > had the good rep. Over in Sacramento there's > West Coast Differentials, > supposed to be good. > > West Tenn, huh? There are many good shops > in Memphis, including Racing > Head Service and Competition Cams, should be > someone there that can > handle diffs. > > I'll let everyone know how the truck works > when I get it home. It > still has 30 inch tires on it, too small for 4.10 > gears, but 32's or > 33's are in the immediate future. I have a two > inch body lift out in > the garage, and polylurethane body mount bushings > too. Those two items > should get the fenders away adequately for 33's. > If I still need more > tire, I can replace the springs with two inch > lift springs, and that > would be enough for 35 inch tires. > > Pat > Fremont, CA > > JeepNut wrote: > > > > Hi Mr. Hines, > > I'd be thrilled to find out you were close > enough for me to use locally (West > > Tennessee) but I doubt it's so.... > > Who did your guys use? and how does one > locate a "differential specialist".... > > > > I've only been able to find "guys who work > on rearends"... and they don't seem > > to have been too helpful to date. > > TIA! > > JeepNut > > > > Pat Hines wrote: > > > > > After much waiting, waiting, and more > waiting the repair shop with a > > > "good" reputation sent my "79 Cherokee Chief > to a differential > > > specialist who quickly diagnoses several > problems, whereas the "good" > > > shop couldn't seem to figure it out. > > > > > > The original, unknown to be in there, > Trac-Loc limited slip had > > > physically broken and was near grennading. > That was where all the rear > > > end noise was coming from. The fact that I > had stopped any attempt at > > > driving it is what saved me from ruining the > whole rear end. > > > > > > So now I will have 4.10 gears, fully > repaired front and rear diffs, and > > > a new Auburn Gear limited slip in the rear diff. > > > > > > I will be able to concentrate on the > several other things I want to do > > > to the truck now that this differential > "stuff" is behind me. > > > > > > Pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:07:13 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: more shop stuff My ideal back yard shop would have the following: 1 flat bay with enough width to have all side doors open on a full size vehicle, closed off from all other bays and areas so as to be able to be used as a paint booth (with adequete ventillation and air filtration system). 1 bay with a 2 post above ground lift, floor drain, and a curtain system to be able to pressure wash in that bay. Back area sufficient for an engine building room (easier to keep clean) 480v 3phase power 10hp 120gal compressor Coats 4050 tire mounting machine Hunter 8500 wheel balancer Ammco 3850 brake/flywheel lathe Heated solvent tank automatic parts washer Roof mounted pull-down oxy torch system. Miller Nirvana welding power supply with auto 1m feeder. SUN Engine Analizer This would be enough to get me started.. *============================================* * JC Jones * * 76 Wagoneer (Road Warrior) - Retired * * 84 Grand Wagoneer (Eeyore) * * 79 J10 (Max) - In Development * * http://www.wagoneer.net * *============================================* > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of > Berry, Bradley A > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:44 AM > To: 'fsj-at-digest.net' > Subject: fsj: more shop stuff > > > John, > > You really want a lift. even you short guys > would learn to appreciate it > quickly. I built my shop with 10' walls and a > cathedral ceiling to get it > high enough to put an RV or a lift in the center > bay. The lifts seem to run > around 2K to 2.5K, but the real secret seems to > be finding a shop that is > getting rid of theirs. My brother was at a > Monkey Wards that was Auctioning > off all of their stuff, and they sold some lifts > for a couple hundred bucks > and U-pull-it. For that price, I'd call the > manufacturer to come remount it > for me! > > I need to send you some pics of my almost > completed shop. This is going to > be awesome. For your floor paint, Lowes and HD > sell a 2 part epoxy paint > that seems to work well, but you'll have to acid > etch your floor, and plan > on putting down 2 coats. 1 coat will not even > come close to sealing. Also, > they have a light and dark gray, and the cans are > almost identical, so don't > pick up 4 cans and get both colors like I did. > Neither store carries a 5 > gallon bucket, and each 2x1/2 gallon mix will > only cover 200 ft^2 (2 coats) > so depending on your slab size you might want to > look elsewhere. The 1 > gallon mixes were like $40! > > If anybody has suggestions on shop layouts, bench > designs, cool things to > put in a shop, I'd love to hear them. I ran > cable out to mine, and my > college roommates dad is a TV repair guy. He has > a big screen he'll sell me > for a couple hundred... > > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:25:43 -0700 > From: john > Subject: fsj: more shop stuff > > hydraulic lift? we don't need no steenkin' > lift... besides, I'm too short > to reach a vehicle > up there anyway... ;) a 5 foot trench works > better for me... ;) I was > actually thinking > about putting another grease pit in, would work > well in this situation... > can add it later... > > (pix of the project at: > http://wagoneers.com/FOTOS/MISC-fotos/April-27-2001/ ) > > with FSJ's and XJ's don't really need a lift. > Getting under my Benz > though > is a major challenge, even with car ramps... > fortunately I don't > have much call to go under it. :) > > Paul Kershner (FSJ list) came over today and > helped "reel me in" > a bit. Helped me come up with some good ideas > that I might actually > be able to do without incurring damage or > excessive expense. :) > > I went to Home Depot this evening to get > supplies... ended up at > the Mongolian Grill, Top Food and Barnes and > Noble... :) oh well, > going to wait 28 days for the concrete to fully > cure so I can seal it > before I do anything on it anyway. I want this > floor spotless so when > I drop stuff I can find it and when I spill stuff > I can clean it up. It'll > be either white, light gray or ivory creme (like > the little wagoneer). > Going to use an epoxy paint to seal it. A light > color will help light > things up so it'll be easy to work on rigs in > there. I may even mount > some fluorescent lamps low so I don't have to wrestle with > drop cords as much. > > The next step is to build a "sandbox" out the > back about 4 feet (I wanted > to go further, but Paul reeled me in, thanx > Paul... ;) to hold my work bench > and my future parts cleaning tank. They'll sit > on packed sand with pavers > over them. Should hold the bench fine. I'll > extend a shed roof out the > back > with clear polycarbonate sheeting to enclose the > back of the carport and > protect the bench. Will need to figure out some > way of making a section of > wall lift for air flow during warmer months or > when welding or tuning an > engine. :) > > Yes, it looks like I have a reasonable plan to > fully enclose this > thing. Along > the north side I'll be adding a section of clear > roof about 4 feet, with > the wall > sitting out away from the slab. Again, Paul > pointed out that by setting the > wall out away from the slab I'd be able to hose > the floor off without > problem. This > will also allow room for the mice to come in... > this will give Nimrod (the 6 toed cat) something to eat > and play with, or is it play with then eat? :) > > Out the front I'll be adding an arbor across the > front of the carport, this > will add almost > 12 feet of covered area out the front of the > carport. It'll cover the > walkway up to where > the existing slab is. Along the walkway I'll put > up a screen for plants to > grow on > and to stop the wind. There will be a planter on > either side of the > walkway. This > will break up the shape of the carport and keep > it from looking like the > slapped on > redneck fortress that it is.... ;) > > I'm going to do my very best to remove all the > unneeded stuff and clean > this thing up > properly. When I go to do my engine swap my shop > will be clean, organized > uncluttered and workable. Folks, this is going > to be the hardest thing > I've ever > attempted... to clean and organize my shop and > not start a project right > away... > pray for me... :) > > I think my wife expects me to paint the house and > finish the picket fence I > started > in 1996 as well... I think wheeling will be out > of the question this > year. I'm hoping > to start the engine swap by the end of June and > finish it by October in > preparation > for Ouray and for the one or two snows we might > see. :) Lord willing my > Panel > will be roadworthy enough should I not get my J10 > finished before August > 2002. :) > > Well, time to call it a night and try to get back > on a normal day schedule. > :) > > john > - ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:00:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: more shop stuff A: For the floor, I'd suggest Hot Trax (any other time, I'd be tripping over the ad, but now I can't find it!) Specifically made for garage floors, it won't lift and stick to your hot tires like most other products will! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2001 10:19:31 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: fsj: woog grain sides repair and headrests for the back seat] You can probably still find the woodgrain. I remember someone posting the info on another list awhile back. No idea how to do headrests for the back bench. You'd probably have to get pretty creative... Paul & Megan Kershner wrote: > Woodgrain peeling? Who has woodgrain that's not? > Headrests? Who has headrests! > > pk > '84 'Peeling Woodgrain, Headrest-less' GW > > bobandkara-at-juno.com wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have some peeling of the wood decal on the side of my GW, any ideas? I > > thought of trying to paint a grain in the spots. Also, without headrests > > in the back seat., it's somewhat uncomfortable. Anyone hear of an > > aftermarket headrest, or maybe swapping the whole seat? > > > > Thanks - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:17:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Pix and new homepage URL A: Some pix of Blackie when I first got it: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/JimBlair/JamesBlair-J10/jimmy-b-blackie.jpg More: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/JimBlair/JamesBlair-J10 My new homepage URL (go.com went under yesterday): http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:38:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: Pix and new homepage URL http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Photos on http://www.photopoint.com ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:51:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: 258/4.0 Heads A: Since you have the pre '80 motor, there are several things you need to do. The head will fit, but make sure there isn't leftover pieces from the old motor stuck inside the intake runner (don't ask! It's too painfully embarassing!) The headbolt size will likely be an issue (they switched between 7/16" and 1/2", and the smaller ones need sleeving to align the head and block or nasty water leaks occur!) There are also several different 4.0L head castings with different combustion chamber sizes and different intake port heights (the higher the port, the more air/fuel volumetric efficiency, the more power, which is why 4.0L went from 130 HP to 170 HP in '91) Which year is it from? ('87 to 08/'90 is Renix, and 08/'91 to 08/'95 is HO OBD1, then OBD2 after that) They are wired differently and use different sensors. To use the older one will require the trans too (due to crank position sensor built into the bellhousing that runs the EFI) or a harmonic balancer CPS kit (about $200 or so from Hesco. Renix style one is now supposed to be available, HO already is because it's used with the Chrysler HO MPFI kit to retrofit) I'm using a HO grind cam (stock) for better power, with anti-ping properties built it. The 4.2L cam will cost power over the 4.0L one, and there are many others built for this set up with up to 400 HP naturally aspirated! (I'll stick with my 250-300 HP, 275 ft/lbs of torque thanks!) I'm going with the Renix setup because the EGR valve will cut down ping due to the higher compression. The HO set up usually needs premium gas to minimize ping unless you are at a high altitude. My set up will use the 4.2L (258) crank and rods in a 4.0L block with 0.030 over pistons, neting about 10.5:1 compression (maybe higher if I shave the block more, but since I'm going to run LPG-MPFI, all I'll get is more power due to higher "octane" of LPG being equivalent to 120 gas! Which is also why LPG runs poorly in a gas engine! So does diesel, but up the compression and what happens? Ask Diesel John! LOL!) For the Renix setup, 1/2 the system is under the dash. The HO is all under the hood (except shift computer for AW4 automatic) Speaking of trannies, you need a '91 or newer AW4 for 23 spline to mate to any '80 up existing FSJ cases, and the XJ harness is different from AT to Std trans. For more info, check out http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/strokers    From: Arthur Tohill Hello Group,A quick 6 cyl question.Will the head from a 4.0 fit a 258 block? I recently acquired a running?4.0. #3 rod hanging out of the side just a slight miss no kidding. I want the f.i. and have a good 258 any suggestions? Arthur 79'J-10 ,65wagoneer,89 commanche 46CJ2A ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Photos on http://www.photopoint.com ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:15:29 -0500 From: bobandkara-at-juno.com Subject: fsj: should i stick with the vac diagram under the hood/HDC CTO question Hi, Thanks for everyones help. I have a recently purchased 86 wag 2v, will be putting in a 4v from a 75 401, and a 4350 carb this weekend (I'm a full time fireman and can do it while on duty---ahhhh---fringe benifit---but have to have everything i need, cant just take off to Autozone!). My 86 is missing the air tubes, and air pump (rebuilt from prev owner). The HDC CTO switch mounted in the thermostat housing is missing, plugged up with a bolt. As far as I can tell from the vac diagram, this not only provides vacuum to the Air Pump/Tubes (which are no longer there), but also to the distibuter. This is supposed to be a CTO rated at 115 degrees. Currently, the distibuter vacuum is supplied by the middle front port on the carb. According to the vac diagram, this is wrong (so are a lot of the other vacuum lines I noticed). Should I get a new HDC CTO for the 4v intake, and just plug of the line that would run to the air tubes, and run vacuum off of the HDC CTO to the distributer (like the diagram says to), and disconnect all the other lines, and run them according to the vac diagram? Also, there is supposed to be a transmission solonoid in the intake of the 4v that used to go to the transmission, but I won't need it on the 86, and is supposed to get plugged, I guess. Does any one know where that is on the manifold? Thanks Jeep Rookie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:41:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: (non-fsj, but some parts swap) '76 Blazer parts going fast! TH350 and NP203 transfercase $175 pair, or $100 each, Approx 45 gallon steel fuel tank (fits in rear frame) $50, class 3 6 point mount trailer hitch for the same $50 (or both for $75), 4x4 power steering box and pump $75, 12 bolt 3.07 ratio rear end $100 (not checked to see if posi or not), Fenders (rust on bottom) with good inners and rad saddle $35, near new 28.5" front driveshaft with double cardan joint $50, Rear shaft 35.5" $35, good 1/2 top $50, tailgate with glass $35 you take off, Door glass $20 each (doors are rusty) other parts $5 and up. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2001 14:41:03 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: Klune V I've been thinking of doing the Klune V as well... Unless I'm misreading, the David can only handle 550ft-lbs input which is far exceeded even by a stock 304/TH400 in 1st gear at peak torque. The whole point is to get 3 low ranges, so it seems a shame to spend $1800 to get 2, then have to spend more time/money to find a tcase with 4:1. Come to think of it, how many tcases, driveshafts, R&P's, and axle shafts are strong enough to handle the kind of torque input a 2.72:1 reduction box can dish out after being multiplied thru a 2.48:1 first gear fed by a healthy V8 ??? Say 285 ft-lbs and the tcase will see about 1900 ft-lbs... and the driveshafts will see 4900 ft-lbs if the tcase is 2.6:1, the axle shafts will be fed 20300 ft-lbs from 4.10's. In the same configuration without the crawler box, the driveshafts would see 2900 ft-lbs and the axle shafts only 7500 ft-lbs with 4.10's. Hmmmm... I hope they meant the boxes will handle MOTORS of 550ft-lbs but that's now how it's written. What about those poor folks with manual trannies and 7:1 granny gears?! (Your motor would have to put out no more than 185 ft-lbs even to keep from breaking the Goliath!) I guess the only other answer would be to keep your engine well clear of peak torque rpm... and hope idle torque x torque converter multiplication doesn't break anything. :) Michael "JC Jones" wrote: > "Differential Doctor" ... Sounds like a Jeep Proctologist.. > > > Pat, I've got 4.09 gears in my J10, and 33" tires are still > too small for those gears. I'm still revving pretty high on > the highway, I'll eventually be going to 38.5x11.00x15 tires > which I think will be a better match for the 4.09 gears on > the street. I'm going to handle the super low gearing by > running Klune V 4:1 reduction box in front of my QT (If I > can find the adapters I need to do it). that will give me > the following final ratios at the wheels: > > 1st gear : 104.28:1 > 2nd gear : 62.23:1 > 3rd gear : 42.05:1 > > In 1st gear with the Klune engaged and the QT in low range, > that would make my crawling speed around 5.5mph at 5000rpm. > So I would be getting maximum torque with a supercharged 401 > (~550 lb/ft) at around 3mph. That ought to make those 38" > Super Swamper Boggers climb over things pretty effectively. - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:47:12 -0400 (EDT) From: David Charles Gedraitis Subject: Re: fsj: Klune V "Hmmmm... I hope they meant the boxes will handle MOTORS of 550ft-lbs but that's now how it's written. What about those poor folks with manual trannies and 7:1 granny gears?! (Your motor would have to put out no more than 185 ft-lbs even to keep from breaking the Goliath!)" Your right there-I have something like 130 ft-lbs (if it were running like new), and first is a wonderful 6.398:1, and the T-case is 1.96:1. Given the rear end gears (5.87's!), we get *quite* the bit of torque :-) I would've built up the motor a long time ago, but it's not like she'd get anywhere faster... ~dave '67 Kaiser M-715 '61 Chrysler Newport '55 Chrysler Windsor Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: Klune V >> the axle shafts will be fed 20300 ft-lbs Well, that's assuming the tires can handle that torque. I suspect that the tires will slip or, in a bad case, the bead will slip. Greg - --- Michael Shimniok wrote: > I've been thinking of doing the Klune V as well... Unless I'm misreading, the > David can only handle 550ft-lbs input which is far exceeded even by a stock > 304/TH400 in 1st gear at peak torque. The whole point is to get 3 low > ranges, > so it seems a shame to spend $1800 to get 2, then have to spend more > time/money to find a tcase with 4:1. > > Come to think of it, how many tcases, driveshafts, R&P's, and axle shafts are > strong enough to handle the kind of torque input a 2.72:1 reduction box can > dish out after being multiplied thru a 2.48:1 first gear fed by a healthy V8 > ??? Say 285 ft-lbs and the tcase will see about 1900 ft-lbs... and the > driveshafts will see 4900 ft-lbs if the tcase is 2.6:1, the axle shafts will > be fed 20300 ft-lbs from 4.10's. In the same configuration without the > crawler box, the driveshafts would see 2900 ft-lbs and the axle shafts only > 7500 ft-lbs with 4.10's. > > Hmmmm... I hope they meant the boxes will handle MOTORS of 550ft-lbs but > that's now how it's written. What about those poor folks with manual > trannies > and 7:1 granny gears?! (Your motor would have to put out no more than 185 > ft-lbs even to keep from breaking the Goliath!) > > I guess the only other answer would be to keep your engine well clear of peak > torque rpm... and hope idle torque x torque converter multiplication doesn't > break anything. :) > > Michael > > "JC Jones" wrote: > > "Differential Doctor" ... Sounds like a Jeep Proctologist.. > > > > > > Pat, I've got 4.09 gears in my J10, and 33" tires are still > > too small for those gears. I'm still revving pretty high on > > the highway, I'll eventually be going to 38.5x11.00x15 tires > > which I think will be a better match for the 4.09 gears on > > the street. I'm going to handle the super low gearing by > > running Klune V 4:1 reduction box in front of my QT (If I > > can find the adapters I need to do it). that will give me > > the following final ratios at the wheels: > > > > 1st gear : 104.28:1 > > 2nd gear : 62.23:1 > > 3rd gear : 42.05:1 > > > > In 1st gear with the Klune engaged and the QT in low range, > > that would make my crawling speed around 5.5mph at 5000rpm. > > So I would be getting maximum torque with a supercharged 401 > > (~550 lb/ft) at around 3mph. That ought to make those 38" > > Super Swamper Boggers climb over things pretty effectively. > > > --- > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1302 **************************