From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri May 11 09:19:51 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, May 10 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1315 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection fsj: Please Vote fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1314 Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection Re: fsj: Please Vote fsj: Re: Please Vote fsj: Re: Fuel Injection fsj: Re: Steering Column Q's fsj: A question fsj: my shift indicator is missing... Re: fsj: my shift indicator is missing... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:38:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexander Wall Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection I have an Edelbrock Performer 4-bbl intake on my engine, but the Holley TBI systems all say 1- or 2-bbl. Is there an after-market fuel-injection system that would work on this intake? Thanks, Alexander Wall Spokane, WA 84 Wagoneer "Lucky" - --- "Ray (lists)" wrote: > I use Holley Pro-Jection 4Di. The software will run on a 286 with an ega > monitor :) I am using a 486 50 DX2 with DOS and Win 3.1 and it works fine. > > I haven't heard of the Commander 950, but I'm curious :) > > From what I can tell, the actual throttle bodies are identical in all of the > models. They look like a chopped-off Holley 4-bbl carb with no float bowls. > If you open them all the way up, there is no vacuum in the manifold. IOW, > the throttle body is NOT the limiting factor for power. > > A 650 CFM unit has injectors that will squirt enough gas to use 650 cubic > feet of air in a minute. If your engine won't inhale 650 CFM, getting > bigger injectors will do you no good at all. > > On the other hand, bigger injectors will require shorter pulses than smaller > injectors for a given flow of fuel. > > > Fuel injectors are simple on/off valves. When the solenoid is getting > current, it is squirting full blast. When the current shuts off, they > aren't squirting at all. > > During regular engine operation, the injectors will get one pulse per spark. > In the case of Holley Pro-Jection, the four injectors fire one after the > other in a pattern (circular, I think). Each spark causes one squirt from > one of the four injectors. > > In this way, the quantity of gas automatically increases with engine speed. > > If the engine always ran wide open and had the same volumetric efficiency > (amount of air inhaled per crank rotation) for any engine speed, this would > be all that is necessary. > > Instead, the fuel tables look at the engine speed and the manifold absolute > pressure and modify how long the injector stays open for each squirt. In > other words, the fuel table (and other calculations) in the control module > control the size of the squirts based on engine speed, intake temperature, > manifold absolute pressure, and a few other parameters. > > Also note that, since manifold absolute pressure instead of vacuum (pressure > difference) are used, the system could care less about the ambient pressure > of altitude. All the engine "sees" is the pressure inside the manifold. > The system therefore adjusts the engine correctly regardless of altitude > (with perhaps some minor anomalies due to exhaust backpressure differences). > > > If you use injectors that are too big, it will be difficult for the > controller to meter the fuel properly at idle and at low engine loading. > Imagine trying to fill a canteen with a firehose :) > > Engine air flow (CFM) = engine speed (RPM) * engine displacement (Cubic > Inches) * volumetric efficiency (%) / 345600 > > Most people assume around 80% volumetric efficiency, though it is likely to > be less than that at 5000 RPM on an engine designed more for low and > midrange torque. > > Even if you assume 100% volumetric efficiency, the most a 360 is going to > inhale at 5000 RPM is around 520 CFM. For a 401, it's around 580 CFM. > > BTW, some well-designed engines can achieve better than 100% volumetric > efficiency over a relatively narrow RPM range. Forced induction can, of > course, give you well over 100% volumetric efficiency. > > Does that answer your question? The 650 CFM unit will give you plenty of > head room :) > > > Ray Drouillard > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan Black > To: Full Size Jeeps > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:04 PM > Subject: fsj: fuel injection > > > > I'm planning on putting a Holley Commander 950 TBI setup on my '88 GWag. > > (Read: I'm ready to actually order the parts.) However, I was wondering > > which model to get. (I'm planning on using it with an Edelbrock > > Performer intake w. EGR. All parts will be brand new.) I know several > > people here have done fuel injection, so I was wondering: > > > > 1. If you have a Commander 950, which did you get, and how well does it > > work? Any recommendations for which model to get or any other > > comments or warnings? > > > > 2. If you have another brand or model, what do you have, and how well > > does _it_ work? Any horsepower estimates? > > > > They have a few models; the ones I'm wondering about are the 650cfm unit > > and the 700cfm unit. It says the 650cfm is for 150-300hp and the 700cfm > > is for 225-400hp. > > > > So I'm wondering if I'll get over the 225hp to use the 700cfm one, and > > if I'd ever be close to the 300hp max of the 650cfm. And I'd like to > > know how much "slop" there is in those figures. Remember that a stock > > one with the Motorcraft 2bbl carb is supposed to be 144hp, and mine's > > probably pretty close to that. > > > > I'm basically guessing I might be somewhere in the area of the minimum > > given for the 700cfm when I get done (hopefully!), so that's why I'm not > > sure. Based on what I know now (nothing, as far as my final resulting > > hp will be concerned), I'd probably get the 700cfm and hope. Oh, and > > there's only about $20 difference between the two, so price difference > > isn't a factor. > > > > Also, the Commander 950 software will control the timing if you have a > > compatible distributor. It lists them under "System Requirements" at > > http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950TB/950-22S.html . > > I didn't see anything about any being compatible with the AMC 360. > > Anybody know if there are any that will work on the AMC 360? > > > > And last, anybody got an old Wintel laptop they want to sell cheap? I'd > > like to keep it in the $100 range, but may be willing to go as high as > > $200 or $300 if it's good enough. The thing is, it doesn't have to be > > that great to control these. I'd like a Pentium or even a P2, but a 486 > > would probably even work. Win95 strongly preferred (since that seems to > > be what the software is mainly designed for), of course as much RAM as > > possible (but especially at least 32MB), hard drive space doesn't matter > > as long as it's not extremely small, prefer a color screen, then maybe > > even active-matrix, and needs a floppy or CD-ROM, pref. both. And of > > course a battery and AC or DC adapter or both. But since I will be > > using the laptop for the TBI adjustment ONLY, I really don't need a huge > > hard drive, probably not a lot of processor speed, screen isn't that > > important (esp. size) as long as it can do at least 8bit grey, and I can > > deal with floppy or CD. Doesn't need any new stuff like USB, PCMCIA > > slots, huge screen, or communications -- although a 10BaseT connector > > would be an ok alternative to a floppy or CD. And of course it needs a > > parallel port; pretty sure that's what it uses to plug in to the box -- > > slim chance it could be parallel. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Hobbes, What do you think is the meaning of true happiness? > > Is it money, cars and women? Or is it just money and cars? > > > > -- Calvin > > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- > dan-at-black.org -------------- Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:39:13 -0700 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: Please Vote I just thought that since I'm forwarding it to our local list I'd pass it along to the FSJ list as well. Scott '84CJ-7 '76 Wagoneer Hey Scott, I'm at work and can't access my Jeep SLC list email account. A guy I know from another forum is asking for some help on a kids photo contest thing. Anyway you can read the details below. Could you forward this to the Jeep SLC list for me. George I just got a message from a friend and fellow offroader. Seems that his son is in a Karate class and they all posted pix on a web site so as to get votes on the best photo. Well, he has a pix with a Jeep in it and since most of the parents of the other kids are treehuggers, they made fun of him and said 4wheel drivers don't use the net and he wouldn't get ANY votes!If you guys don't mind, how 'bout casting a vote for the kid. His is photo #5,I'm sure you won't miss it since it's the only one with a 4WD in the pix! Please be a little patient, because there's lots of pix and it takes a few moments to load. Photo # 5 Here's the address: After clicking the #5 photo go down to the bottom of the page to submit it. Thanks everyone. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:41:02 -0500 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1314 I have several of these caps in fair to good shape. If anyone is interested, let me know via email Divrdn69-at-swbell.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:53:46 -0400 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection All of the Holley TBI systems that I have seen require a 4 bbl intake. There might be some that work on a 2 bbl intake now, but I have never seen them advertises (I haven't looked). I'm running Holley Pro-Jection 4Di on an Edelbrock Performer manifold. IOW, you have the right manifold. Ray - ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexander Wall To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:38 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection > I have an Edelbrock Performer 4-bbl intake on my engine, but the Holley TBI systems > all say 1- or 2-bbl. Is there an after-market fuel-injection system that would work on > this intake? > > Thanks, > > Alexander Wall > Spokane, WA > 84 Wagoneer "Lucky" > > > > --- "Ray (lists)" wrote: > > I use Holley Pro-Jection 4Di. The software will run on a 286 with an ega > > monitor :) I am using a 486 50 DX2 with DOS and Win 3.1 and it works fine. > > > > I haven't heard of the Commander 950, but I'm curious :) > > > > From what I can tell, the actual throttle bodies are identical in all of the > > models. They look like a chopped-off Holley 4-bbl carb with no float bowls. > > If you open them all the way up, there is no vacuum in the manifold. IOW, > > the throttle body is NOT the limiting factor for power. > > > > A 650 CFM unit has injectors that will squirt enough gas to use 650 cubic > > feet of air in a minute. If your engine won't inhale 650 CFM, getting > > bigger injectors will do you no good at all. > > > > On the other hand, bigger injectors will require shorter pulses than smaller > > injectors for a given flow of fuel. > > > > > > Fuel injectors are simple on/off valves. When the solenoid is getting > > current, it is squirting full blast. When the current shuts off, they > > aren't squirting at all. > > > > During regular engine operation, the injectors will get one pulse per spark. > > In the case of Holley Pro-Jection, the four injectors fire one after the > > other in a pattern (circular, I think). Each spark causes one squirt from > > one of the four injectors. > > > > In this way, the quantity of gas automatically increases with engine speed. > > > > If the engine always ran wide open and had the same volumetric efficiency > > (amount of air inhaled per crank rotation) for any engine speed, this would > > be all that is necessary. > > > > Instead, the fuel tables look at the engine speed and the manifold absolute > > pressure and modify how long the injector stays open for each squirt. In > > other words, the fuel table (and other calculations) in the control module > > control the size of the squirts based on engine speed, intake temperature, > > manifold absolute pressure, and a few other parameters. > > > > Also note that, since manifold absolute pressure instead of vacuum (pressure > > difference) are used, the system could care less about the ambient pressure > > of altitude. All the engine "sees" is the pressure inside the manifold. > > The system therefore adjusts the engine correctly regardless of altitude > > (with perhaps some minor anomalies due to exhaust backpressure differences). > > > > > > If you use injectors that are too big, it will be difficult for the > > controller to meter the fuel properly at idle and at low engine loading. > > Imagine trying to fill a canteen with a firehose :) > > > > Engine air flow (CFM) = engine speed (RPM) * engine displacement (Cubic > > Inches) * volumetric efficiency (%) / 345600 > > > > Most people assume around 80% volumetric efficiency, though it is likely to > > be less than that at 5000 RPM on an engine designed more for low and > > midrange torque. > > > > Even if you assume 100% volumetric efficiency, the most a 360 is going to > > inhale at 5000 RPM is around 520 CFM. For a 401, it's around 580 CFM. > > > > BTW, some well-designed engines can achieve better than 100% volumetric > > efficiency over a relatively narrow RPM range. Forced induction can, of > > course, give you well over 100% volumetric efficiency. > > > > Does that answer your question? The 650 CFM unit will give you plenty of > > head room :) > > > > > > Ray Drouillard > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dan Black > > To: Full Size Jeeps > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:04 PM > > Subject: fsj: fuel injection > > > > > > > I'm planning on putting a Holley Commander 950 TBI setup on my '88 GWag. > > > (Read: I'm ready to actually order the parts.) However, I was wondering > > > which model to get. (I'm planning on using it with an Edelbrock > > > Performer intake w. EGR. All parts will be brand new.) I know several > > > people here have done fuel injection, so I was wondering: > > > > > > 1. If you have a Commander 950, which did you get, and how well does it > > > work? Any recommendations for which model to get or any other > > > comments or warnings? > > > > > > 2. If you have another brand or model, what do you have, and how well > > > does _it_ work? Any horsepower estimates? > > > > > > They have a few models; the ones I'm wondering about are the 650cfm unit > > > and the 700cfm unit. It says the 650cfm is for 150-300hp and the 700cfm > > > is for 225-400hp. > > > > > > So I'm wondering if I'll get over the 225hp to use the 700cfm one, and > > > if I'd ever be close to the 300hp max of the 650cfm. And I'd like to > > > know how much "slop" there is in those figures. Remember that a stock > > > one with the Motorcraft 2bbl carb is supposed to be 144hp, and mine's > > > probably pretty close to that. > > > > > > I'm basically guessing I might be somewhere in the area of the minimum > > > given for the 700cfm when I get done (hopefully!), so that's why I'm not > > > sure. Based on what I know now (nothing, as far as my final resulting > > > hp will be concerned), I'd probably get the 700cfm and hope. Oh, and > > > there's only about $20 difference between the two, so price difference > > > isn't a factor. > > > > > > Also, the Commander 950 software will control the timing if you have a > > > compatible distributor. It lists them under "System Requirements" at > > > http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950TB/950-22S.html . > > > I didn't see anything about any being compatible with the AMC 360. > > > Anybody know if there are any that will work on the AMC 360? > > > > > > And last, anybody got an old Wintel laptop they want to sell cheap? I'd > > > like to keep it in the $100 range, but may be willing to go as high as > > > $200 or $300 if it's good enough. The thing is, it doesn't have to be > > > that great to control these. I'd like a Pentium or even a P2, but a 486 > > > would probably even work. Win95 strongly preferred (since that seems to > > > be what the software is mainly designed for), of course as much RAM as > > > possible (but especially at least 32MB), hard drive space doesn't matter > > > as long as it's not extremely small, prefer a color screen, then maybe > > > even active-matrix, and needs a floppy or CD-ROM, pref. both. And of > > > course a battery and AC or DC adapter or both. But since I will be > > > using the laptop for the TBI adjustment ONLY, I really don't need a huge > > > hard drive, probably not a lot of processor speed, screen isn't that > > > important (esp. size) as long as it can do at least 8bit grey, and I can > > > deal with floppy or CD. Doesn't need any new stuff like USB, PCMCIA > > > slots, huge screen, or communications -- although a 10BaseT connector > > > would be an ok alternative to a floppy or CD. And of course it needs a > > > parallel port; pretty sure that's what it uses to plug in to the box -- > > > slim chance it could be parallel. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > > > Hobbes, What do you think is the meaning of true happiness? > > > Is it money, cars and women? Or is it just money and cars? > > > > > > -- Calvin > > > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- > > dan-at-black.org -------------- > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexander Wall Subject: Re: fsj: Please Vote That's a somewhat unrealistic ratio of votes for that picture! - --- "Phillips, Scott" wrote: > I just thought that since I'm forwarding it to our local list I'd pass it > along to the FSJ list as well. > Scott > '84CJ-7 > '76 Wagoneer > > Hey Scott, > > I'm at work and can't access my Jeep SLC list email account. A guy I know > from another forum is asking for some help on a kids photo contest thing. > Anyway you can read the details below. Could you forward this to the Jeep > SLC list for me. > > George > > I just got a message from a friend and fellow offroader. Seems that his son > is in a Karate class and they all posted pix on a web site so as to get > votes on the best photo. Well, he has a pix with a Jeep in it and since most > of the parents of the other kids are treehuggers, they made fun of him and > said 4wheel drivers don't use the net and he wouldn't get ANY votes!If you > guys don't mind, how 'bout casting a vote for the kid. His is photo #5,I'm > sure you won't miss it since it's the only one with a 4WD in the pix! Please > be a little patient, because there's lots of pix and it takes a few moments > to load. Photo # 5 Here's the address: > After clicking the #5 photo go down to the bottom of the page to submit it. > > Thanks everyone. Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:55:30 -0700 From: "Rick Morley" Subject: fsj: Re: Please Vote As of 3:55 PM PST today. 51% for the dual warrior pic! Everyone else.... >2% - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Scott" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: fsj: Please Vote > I just thought that since I'm forwarding it to our local list I'd pass it > along to the FSJ list as well. > Scott > '84CJ-7 > '76 Wagoneer > > Hey Scott, > > I'm at work and can't access my Jeep SLC list email account. A guy I know > from another forum is asking for some help on a kids photo contest thing. > Anyway you can read the details below. Could you forward this to the Jeep > SLC list for me. > > George > > I just got a message from a friend and fellow offroader. Seems that his son > is in a Karate class and they all posted pix on a web site so as to get > votes on the best photo. Well, he has a pix with a Jeep in it and since most > of the parents of the other kids are treehuggers, they made fun of him and > said 4wheel drivers don't use the net and he wouldn't get ANY votes!If you > guys don't mind, how 'bout casting a vote for the kid. His is photo #5,I'm > sure you won't miss it since it's the only one with a 4WD in the pix! Please > be a little patient, because there's lots of pix and it takes a few moments > to load. Photo # 5 Here's the address: > After clicking the #5 photo go down to the bottom of the page to submit it. > > Thanks everyone. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:10:32 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Fuel Injection At 06:56 PM 5/10/01 -0400, GW1989-at-aol.com wrote: >Hi again- >The dealer just told me that the carb needs about $700 to bring it up to par. >Wouldn't the $700 be better spent on a fuel injection system? I'm don't have >a clue what they cost, and then I need someone to put it in. What do I do? >Craig you have several options, edelbrock performer manifold and 1406 carb " and Holley TBI " and Howell engineering tbi or of course a rebuild by a non-dealer for about $300. dealers are a major ripoff, avoid them and franchise repair facilities. john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:12:15 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Steering Column Q's At 05:00 AM 5/10/01 -0400, Jonathan Moore wrote: >John, > >Did you ever find a steering column that would work in an FSJ that had the >light/wiper and other controls on it? I plan on putting in a floor shifter >for the auto trans and am looking then to replace the column but figured if >I did that I might as well get one with the features that I want. >Jonathan Moore >Jonathan Moore >jm9n-at-unix.mail.virginia.edu >Video Production >University of Virginia Health System >Department of Media Services >PO Box 800384 >Charlottesville, VA 22908 >http://www.med.virginia.edu/medcntr/depts/media/mps.html no, haven't really been looking though either... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:19:15 -0700 From: wp3 Subject: fsj: A question first off there is a nice 1973 GW for sale in Flagstaff, 2000 best offer, I will get more info if anyone is interested. My J 10 has factory air and it doesn't seem to want to put out cold air. I turn it on and I can see the freon flowing thru the glass but no cold air. any suggestions on were to start? thanks, Will 80 J 10 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:03:40 -0500 From: bobandkara-at-juno.com Subject: fsj: my shift indicator is missing... Recently bought a 86 GW, the shift indicator in the steering collum isn't there (the little white needle that shows what gear you are in). Anyone ever see how this needle is attached? Is it floating around somewhere in the steering collumn? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:48:44 -0700 From: Jeff Ganyard Subject: Re: fsj: my shift indicator is missing... At 10:03 PM -0500 5/10/01, bobandkara-at-juno.com wrote: >Recently bought a 86 GW, the shift indicator in the steering collum isn't >there (the little white needle that shows what gear you are in). Anyone >ever see how this needle is attached? Is it floating around somewhere in >the steering collumn? I just joined the FSJ list, glad to find it! I bought a '76 Waggy last December. It also was missing the indicator, right now I have a bent paper clip as a stand-in. I'd love to know how to attach one should I ever find a replacement. (anyone got a spare one?) jeff ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1315 **************************